Fujitsu mini-split quote too high?

[cowanrg]

we just recently bought a new house with a large garage that will be my workshop. we take possession in a week and I'm trying to get the heating/cooling figured out. It's an 800 square foot space (3 car garage) that's insulated, drywalled, has an attic with insulation, and mostly brick exterior (half brick, half composite). I was originally thinking a 12000 or 15000 BTU would work.

The house also had an issue with an older AC unit, so I asked the HVAC guy to quote both the repair of the AC as well as the mini-split. The quote on the main AC unit was good (16 SEER Bryant) at $4800 fully installed, permits, etc.

However, the quote for the mini-split was for a 2-ton Fujitsu and it came out to $4300. That seems high considering 2 tons seems like overkill, and the unit itself is under $2k. $2300 for install seems crazy, given he's already there for the other AC unit. What are your thoughts? I was thinking that if his quote came back really high I would just buy a Mr. Cool and do the install myself and save $3k. Thoughts?

The location and install is pretty idea. Garage is attached, but juts out from the house. There's a large concrete pad behind the garage, where the outside unit would go.

 

[gtae07]

I'd get at least an 18K unit for that space; it's a minimal cost increase. And that cost seems really high. I'd go with the DIY unit but that's just me (it's what I did).

Do you already have power to a disconnect out there?

 

[Kaizen]

where are you. look up loss calculator for your area. 24k is probably about right with those 3 garage doors

 

[cowanrg]

I'm in Colorado. It's a dry heat ;-)

I was thinking about going with DIY. I need a subpanel for the garage anyways, I could just have them put in the electrical outside.

gtae07, what unit did you do?

 

[mpire]

That seems to be just about TWICE what you should pay for the mini-split. They like to charge more just because they assume you don't know any better.

Here is the 24,000 BTU Fujitsu unit for $2036.95. This includes free shipping and no tax if you don't live in Florida.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/Fujitsu-Air-Conditioners/24RLB-24RLB-24000-BTU-18-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump-System/52513.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=68436:18,001%20-%2024,000:1004:Fujitsu

I have bought two Mini-splits from there. They are as good as anyone else really. They helped me with a couple warranty repairs too.

I have two LG units and I am very happy with them and their performance after 5 years of use.

https://www.acwholesalers.com/LG-Air-Conditioners/LS240HLV-LS240HLV-24000-BTU-21-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Heat-Pump/43959.ac?catId=cat1028&mainCat=&subCat=&trail=68436:18,001%20-%2024,000:1004:LG

 

[mpire]

Regarding the size, I have a 1.5 ton in my garage and with the large garage doors I should have gone bigger. If its too big, the inverter just slows down the compressor so its not big deal. Its not like the traditional AC units that are either ON or OFF. Variable compressor means it can crank up and cool fast, but it can also slow down the compressor to maintain.

The hardest part of my installs, by far, was running the 12/2 wire up through the attic and to the breaker box. Everything else is pretty simple DIY stuff.

 

[cowanrg]

thanks. this guy actually seemed super honest, but when I asked him why there's $2300 worth of installation on a $2k unit, he said that it needs electrical to the indoor unit as well as the outside unit and that's expensive. these units don't need two runs of electrical, right? it's just to the outside unit. ugh.

 

[mpire]

Right, my experience is that they have one 12/2 line running to the outside unit, and then there is an 18ga control wire that sends power and control to the inside evaporator unit. Depending on where your breaker panel is and where you are putting the unit, how hard is it going to be to run the wire?

As long as there are no breaks in the wire, it should be just a straight run then connect it to the proper sized breaker.

 

[Fixin'Stuff]

$2,300 labor does seem just a tad high for maybe a half day of work.

 

[Spdstr280Z]

I had the same experience, they price these things like traditional units. I guess the ducting / vents / air handler / remote thermostat are free with traditional split systems... My quotes were about the same for an 18K Trane, and an 18K Daiken. The "Trane" is actually a rebadged Gree that I can buy on the web for around ~$1,200.

I have had my finger on the trigger for the Mr. Cool DIY unit for a couple of weeks now, and will likely go that route for $1,200.

BTW, !8K was recommended for my 600 square foot space because I have high ceilings and the additional cost is insignificant. I would go 18K minimum on yours, probably 24K as mentioned above and quoted. Not that I have any expertise...

 

[cowanrg]

Cool. The guy called me and it honestly sounds like he's just kinda ignorant to mini-splits. he explained that the majority of the cost comes from the electrical, which he doesn't do, he subcontracts it out. so, someone's charging him a lot. he was under the impression there are two electrical runs needed, which isn't true.

How much would you guys expect to spend to have a 220V line run for the outside unit? My garage is 23 x 35 roughly and the inside unit will go high up along the back long wall, and the elecrical box is roughly centered along the adjacent wall. So it would travel ~15' and then ~17'. There's an attic above so it seems pretty straightforward.

 

[Trey T]

old unit: is permit required? around here, as long as you don't change the system spec, permit isn't required.

mini-split: 2 ton seems appropriate. Better but costly, I would install two units (a ton each) for better air distribution. Labor cost varies from place to place, depend on competition. Around here, I wouldn't pay more than $1K.

 

[brewchief]

Our electrical contractor charges 300-400$ for a simple power run to an A/C, plus an 80 or 90$ permit fee, attic work would bump that up a bit.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[cowanrg]

awesome information guys. I called a couple more places and everyone wants to charge a LOT for a mini-split. their prices are all about the same.

I think I've all but decided to go with a MRCOOL 24k unit and install it myself. I want a sub-panel with 220 in the garage anyways, so I might just wrap it all together. The 24k MRCOOL runs around $1500 online, so I could probably do the whole thing for $2k.

 

[Spdstr280Z]

How much would you guys expect to spend to have a 220V line run for the outside unit? My garage is 23 x 35 roughly and the inside unit will go high up along the back long wall, and the elecrical box is roughly centered along the adjacent wall. So it would travel ~15' and then ~17'. There's an attic above so it seems pretty straightforward.

On one of my quotes, when I questioned the price, they told me I could have the electrical done by someone else, and they would knock off $100. The guy who wired the building in the first place does other work in the area and said he would stop by and do it for about that. Caveat, my disconnect will only be about 5 feet from the breaker box and that is side work pricing.

Jason

 

[walrus]

he was under the impression there are two electrical runs needed, which isn't true..

There is power to the outdoor unit and power between the indoor and outdoor unit. 2 runs

 

[mpire]

awesome information guys. I called a couple more places and everyone wants to charge a LOT for a mini-split. their prices are all about the same.

I think I've all but decided to go with a MRCOOL 24k unit and install it myself. I want a sub-panel with 220 in the garage anyways, so I might just wrap it all together. The 24k MRCOOL runs around $1500 online, so I could probably do the whole thing for $2k.

Make sure the unit you are buying is listed on the AHRI website as complying with whatever the requirements are for various rebates,etc. They will have a certificate you can print out for your exact model number. If you can't find it, then don't buy that model. (There are 40 MrCool models listed.)

You can't get any rebates if it isn't AHRI certified, even if its really efficient.

https://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirectory/pages/home.aspx

 

[cowanrg]

There is power to the outdoor unit and power between the indoor and outdoor unit. 2 runs

Isn't the power between the two units included with the line-set though?

 

[k_ross]

Make sure the unit you are buying is listed on the AHRI website as complying with whatever the requirements are for various rebates,etc. They will have a certificate you can print out for your exact model number. If you can't find it, then don't buy that model. (There are 40 MrCool models listed.)

You can't get any rebates if it isn't AHRI certified, even if its really efficient.

https://www.ahridirectory.org/ahridirectory/pages/home.aspx

Since I just installed a Mr Cool unit, I went and checked out that link. When I search for Mr Cool, it comes back with a lot of models listed, but in the "Eligible for federal tax credit" column, none of them say "Yes".

 

[Spdstr280Z]

Isn't the power between the two units included with the line-set though?

For the Mr. Cool DIY at least (and I believe most mini-splits), yes, the outside units get the power run, then there is a power / control cable that connects to the inside unit. I think the Friedrich Breeze units have an inside power cord.

Jason

 

[mpire]

Isn't the power between the two units included with the line-set though?

Generally its not included, but its just a 5 conductor 18g connector wire. The indoor fan doesn't use much power at all.

 

[walrus]

Isn't the power between the two units included with the line-set though?

Not the line sets I've seen, still has to be installed by licensed electrician, also some states requiring 3 pole disconnect near indoor unit. More to it than just wires

 

[Git]

I can't speak about a Fujitsu, but when I installed my Mr Slim, there were a lot of horror stories out there where people used regular 'nm' type electrical wire to connect the inside to the outside unit. The proper cable was a Honeywell 14/4 that cost me $1.65 per foot - but I never had any problems and I figure it is money well spent.

Also - the line sets I have seen are only include the ac lines and I do have a disconnect right beside the outside unit. There was some question about needing a disconnect next to the inside unit but I finally figured it out that I didn't need one

http://www.ecomfort.com/Honeywell-TSW-14-4/p18402.html

 

[mpire]

Yeah, that makes sense. The LG uses a 4 wire 14 ga setup.

I just looked it up. It looked smaller to me.

 

[SALIV8]

When I got mini split installed quotes they were all about double what the unit itself costs. One guy even wanted me to have the electric done.

I dont get it. they must think everyone is dumb. So I will diy, or use window shakers in the mean time.

 

[cowanrg]

Ah OK, that's what I thought.

He came back and said he'd do it for $2900.

But that's still probably $750-$900 more than going the Mr. Cool DIY route.

I'll have to look into the tax credits. The Mr. Cool stuff is listed, but not as having a credit. The Fujitsu stuff looks there's a credit, but I don't know if spending an extra $900 to get a $300 credit makes sense ;-)

 

[gtae07]

Not the line sets I've seen, still has to be installed by licensed electrician, also some states requiring 3 pole disconnect near indoor unit. More to it than just wires

The DIY units don't need that. On the Mr. Cool the lines (excluding drain) are already insulated and wrapped along with the control wires. They have a molex connector on the end that you just snap onto the connector on the outside unit. The power is run separately with a whip from a disconnect box. I installed the disconnect box and wired it (with 8/3) when I built the shop so it was already in place.

 

[PoorOwner]

maybe get a quote on a ducted split system as well

 

[Jackfre]

Right, my experience is that they have one 12/2 line running to the outside unit, and then there is an 18ga control wire that sends power and control to the inside evaporator unit. Depending on where your breaker panel is and where you are putting the unit, how hard is it going to be to run the wire?

As long as there are no breaks in the wire, it should be just a straight run then connect it to the proper sized breaker.

You will need a 20 amp circuit/disconnect for the 12, 15, 18 or 24 from Fujitsu. The wiring from the condensing unit to the indoor evaporator is a piece of 14/3 that you basically tie to the line set as you run it to the unit. That 14/3 could not be simpler. 1 to 1, 2 to 2, 3to 3 plus the ground. 1&2 are power (220v to evap) 3 is comm. Don't cross them up. I think an 18 would be about right

The 18RLXFW will heat down to 5*F. Cooling min max are 7k-23Kbtu (depending upon temp). Heat range 7-29 kbtu. 19.2 seer/10 hspf.

Another option is the 15RLS3H. 3100-18.4 kbtu cool at 25.3 seer. Heat 3100-23000 btu at 13.3 hspf and will operate down to -15*f. This 15 is probably as much or more than the 18 due to the low temp heat capability.

Whatever you do, if you intend to run the heat much, raise the condensing unit off the pad. I like to use wall brackets to mount them. Keeps them cleaner and allows condensate to drain out in the cold weather. I have seen them placed on a pad and turn into an ice-cube with a frozen drain. That 15 I reference has a base pan heater for the low temp operation.

 

[cowanrg]

I think I'm all but decided on the Mr. Cool DIY unit. I got another quote back for a Mitsubishi unit, but it's only an 18K BTU, and the total price was $3250. Not bad, but still probably about a grand more than the Mr. Cool 24K BTU. My only real concern is what to do with the excess lineset. They recommend just coiling it up behind the outside unit, but there has to be a better option, or at least a way to hide it better.

 

[danski0224]

However, the quote for the mini-split was for a 2-ton Fujitsu and it came out to $4300. That seems high considering 2 tons seems like overkill, and the unit itself is under $2k. $2300 for install seems crazy, given he's already there for the other AC unit. What are your thoughts? I was thinking that if his quote came back really high I would just buy a Mr. Cool and do the install myself and save $3k. Thoughts?

I'm guessing that you don't have the foggiest idea about what it actually costs for a business to employ someone, provide even mediocre insurance, provide a vehicle and insure it and put gas in it, stock it with parts and have it show up at your door with said employee.

Unless, of course, one is working for one of the many HVAC companies that expect the worker to provide everything but some consumables and the vehicle out of their generous take home incentive-based pay.

If that number is for a complete fresh install, including permits, I may be one of a few that thinks that the quote is reasonably in line. Especially without seeing the job. Every job described as "easy" on the internet or over the phone is of course easy, like the homeowner says.

If anything, there may be a slight upcharge for calling when it's hot out and you want AC installed (probably right now, too)....

Did anyone do a load calculation?

You can always do it yourself.

 

[cowanrg]

I was self-employed for about 5 years. I understand there are costs involved.

They have seen the site and have assessed the job in person. I know I'm saying it's an easy job, but so are they.

I get that they have to make money, but I of course have the luxury of weighing what I feel their time is worth versus mine.

 

[shillamus]

I just finished my first install of a two ton on my own. Costs for tooling for nitrogen regulator manifold guage etc was 350-400$. Now we own the tooling. Need to get my EPA 608 license so I can buy 410A


Get a Blue Ridge Ductless split and find an installer.. you will save a grand and get to that 2K Target. You can buy the unit with a credit card and have shipped to your door (except California)

 

[Spdstr280Z]

I'm guessing that you don't have the foggiest idea about what it actually costs for a business to employ someone, provide even mediocre insurance, provide a vehicle and insure it and put gas in it, stock it with parts and have it show up at your door with said employee.

Unless, of course, one is working for one of the many HVAC companies that expect the worker to provide everything but some consumables and the vehicle out of their generous take home incentive-based pay.

If that number is for a complete fresh install, including permits, I may be one of a few that thinks that the quote is reasonably in line. Especially without seeing the job. Every job described as "easy" on the internet or over the phone is of course easy, like the homeowner says.

If anything, there may be a slight upcharge for calling when it's hot out and you want AC installed (probably right now, too)....

Did anyone do a load calculation?

You can always do it yourself.

Now having said all that, are you familiar with the requirements of a mini-split install compared to a traditional split system ? With no ducting, vents thermostat or air handler to install, why should the labor from the same company be essentially the same between the two systems ? I'm all for supporting local businesses, I have many friends who are business owners, I know I don't have the balls to do it, and that regulations and taxes make it damn near not worth getting started. I'm still not going to pay $4,500 to get a $1,200 mini split installed in my garage.

Jason

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[danski0224]

Now having said all that, are you familiar with the requirements of a mini-split install compared to a traditional split system ? With no ducting, vents thermostat or air handler to install, why should the labor from the same company be essentially the same between the two systems ? I'm all for supporting local businesses, I have many friends who are business owners, I know I don't have the balls to do it, and that regulations and taxes make it damn near not worth getting started. I'm still not going to pay $4,500 to get a $1,200 mini split installed in my garage.

Jason

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

The OP references the *replacement* of an existing older AC unit, not the installation of ducting and so forth.

The replacement is quoted at $4,800.00.

I would be willing to bet that the wholesale cost of either system is comparable, certainly within 20%.

It is unknown whether or not the split AC system includes a new lineset, but the power and disconnect are already in place.

Most slam bam residential shops don't even bother with a vacuum pump, much less a nitrogen purge, micron gauge or triple evac. The performance based pay shops that I am familiar with would expect one person to do a changeout box swap in less than 4 hours- two per day. Therefore, the systems are NOT installed to spec. I have had hacks brag about getting it done in 2 hours or less- especially without replacing the coil.

An *new* mini-split system is actually harder than the replacement of an existing split system- stupid original installation locations excluded.

One thing is certain- the OP will NOT get "16 SEER" if the rest of the system is lacking- either improperly charged or not enough airflow. I have yet to see a residential HVAC system that has proper airflow.

The mini-splits eliminate the ductwork/airflow issues. The versions with fixed lineset lengths eliminate charging problems.

So yes, I am familiar with the installation of both.

 

[cowanrg]

The OP references the *replacement* of an existing older AC unit, not the installation of ducting and so forth.

The replacement is quoted at $4,800.00.

I would be willing to bet that the wholesale cost of either system is comparable, certainly within 20%.

It is unknown whether or not the split AC system includes a new lineset, but the power and disconnect are already in place.

Most slam bam residential shops don't even bother with a vacuum pump, much less a nitrogen purge, micron gauge or triple evac. The performance based pay shops that I am familiar with would expect one person to do a changeout box swap in less than 4 hours- two per day. Therefore, the systems are NOT installed to spec. I have had hacks brag about getting it done in 2 hours or less- especially without replacing the coil.

An *new* mini-split system is actually harder than the replacement of an existing split system- stupid original installation locations excluded.

One thing is certain- the OP will NOT get "16 SEER" if the rest of the system is lacking- either improperly charged or not enough airflow. I have yet to see a residential HVAC system that has proper airflow.

The mini-splits eliminate the ductwork/airflow issues. The versions with fixed lineset lengths eliminate charging problems.

So yes, I am familiar with the installation of both.

For the record, nothing exists in the garage. We're replacing the main AC unit and adding a mini-split in addition to the AC system.

Also, I originally thought the system was a Bryant, it's a Goodman, which is pretty low end. Yes, it's a swap-out, but no electrical is needed.

 

[Spdstr280Z]

His mini split install is brand new, as is mine. The swap is his house traditional split. Different quotes. I would say you are are correct that the wholesale cost is the same between them, but there is a lot more labor on a new traditional split vs a mini split, which is what I and others are commenting on. You are correct on the hack jobs out there though, that's the primary reason that I am turned off on "professionals" right now. I shouldn't be doing a much better job than a "professional", but I find that I do. Admittedly, I care more and I don't have to count my minutes...

Edit..

Sorry, OP posted while I was. While I am typing, I bet the traditional split can be bought wholesale for even less. When we were talking about the price, they offered to quote a traditional spilt that they could likely do for less. Unfortunately i would rather not lose the space for the air handler and ducting inside.

Not trying to be hard to get along with, but my feeling is that all else being equal, many installers in the US are over charging for mini splits. I'm sure there are various reasons, lack of familiarity, it's something "new" in the US, they are more efficient so they can charge the "green" tax, etc. FWIW, I'm a fair price for fair work, pay for quality, try to buy American kind of guy, but I have limits. Paying for a Trane sticker on a Gree unit pretending to be a premium product when really the rest of the world has been using them for years, driving the costs down to affordability for the masses exceeds those limits. I'll quit whining now.

Jason

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[gc427]

I have found in the past that the "wholesale houses" are pricing mini split systems to HVAC contractors at a higher price than the same unit can be found for by ordering from low margin online sellers.

To the OP if you figure that it's an easy job then you should do it yourself and spend your time and save the money. Just remember that it's going to take you 2-3 times longer than the professionL installer. If your time is worth it then you save money. If the pro does it then you save your time and aggravation but spend some money. Probably a wash either way?

 

[danski0224]

His mini split install is brand new, as is mine. The swap is his house traditional split. Different quotes. I would say you are are correct that the wholesale cost is the same between them, but there is a lot more labor on a new traditional split vs a mini split, which is what I and others are commenting on. You are correct on the hack jobs out there though, that's the primary reason that I am turned off on "professionals" right now. I shouldn't be doing a much better job than a "professional", but I find that I do. Admittedly, I care more and I don't have to count my minutes...

I will disagree with the degree of difficulty between a standard split system box swap (evap and condenser, in an unconfined/uncramped space; no changes otherwise to the air handler/furnace, ductwork and electrical) versus a fresh new mini split install.

This part here is of importance: "I don't have to count my minutes...", and quoted as such, it doesn't lose context.

A so-called professional, under the gun to get the job completed, will cut corners more often than not. Whether the boss blew the bid/scope of work and it is a legitimate issue or even down to the employee on a performance based pay system that cuts corners to get it done faster. Yes, some companies promise a complete and proper job and lie about what they are providing from the start and never deliver the proper job- even if they can.

Just as bad are the property owners that tell you to go stuff it when major unforeseen difficulties arise and a reasonable price adjustment is sought. Major corners will get cut then.

It would be rare to have an issue arise that adds time/cost to a project and to have the contractor performing the work to slug through it and eat it 100% without compromise somewhere. I'm not talking about the little oopsies here.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

For the record, nothing exists in the garage. We're replacing the main AC unit and adding a mini-split in addition to the AC system.

Also, I originally thought the system was a Bryant, it's a Goodman, which is pretty low end. Yes, it's a swap-out, but no electrical is needed.

Id take a "low end" goodman as you call it over a "bottom of the well" bryant any day of the week.