Fun with Ground Rods!

[Vintage Veloce]

View media item 92222
Tried to drive 5 ground rods yesterday, only 2 went all the way in. And as you can see, we really tried. Not a problem, as I only needed one, and I bought 5 knowing we would have trouble. Hard clay with lots of rocks, especially about 4 feet down. We just cut off the ones that didn't go, and we will bond them together.
Video here!

 

[Vintage Veloce]

Oh, and that is not me on the ladder... I left this to the professionals. ;-)

 

[ard]

Ufer ftw

 

[Sevenhills1952]

Sounds like cursing in Spanish to me[emoji38]

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk

 

[Vintage Veloce]

Ufer ftw

Actually the garage does have an excellent Ufer ground! But I didn't leave any external access to the Ufer, and for an antenna ground, I want to attach outside the building. (Don't worry, I'll bond these rods to the Ufer too.)

But here is a tip: make connections available to your Ufer inside the wall, inside the building and outside the building. If I have a "next time", I will.

 

[mm08822]

View media item 92222
Tried to drive 5 ground rods yesterday, only 2 went all the way in. And as you can see, we really tried. Not a problem, as I only needed one, and I bought 5 knowing we would have trouble. Hard clay with lots of rocks, especially about 4 feet down. We just cut off the ones that didn't go, and we will bond them together.
Video here!

You're too close to the foundation in video. Probably were hitting the footing since you indicate all stopped @4'.

You probably needed 2.

 

[manwithtools]

You're too close to the foundation in video. Probably were hitting the footing since you indicate all stopped @4'.

You probably needed 2.

Doubt there's a footer on a garage in San Diego and if there is, it's sure as hell not 4' down. There is no frost line there. Likely just a thickened edge slab.

 

[rlitman]

Damn. I recently drove 23' of 1-1/4" pipe with the same class hammer for a shallow irrigation well. It something like an hour of hammering, but it did go.

I'm amazed that it wouldn't move a ground rod, even into solid rock. I wonder why you couldn't braze the tip off a carbide tipped masonry drill onto the point of a ground rod for this purpose.

 

[PCustoms]

If you have ufer, and are going to bond these rods to it anyway, why didn't you just bond the antenna to the ufer in the first place?

 

[mm08822]

Doubt there's a footer on a garage in San Diego and if there is, it's sure as hell not 4' down. There is no frost line there. Likely just a thickened edge slab.

Agreed - never looked at location. It is a reality by me.

 

[jd_1138]

call in an Oklahoma oil derrick crew

 

[mike93lx]

View media item 92222
Tried to drive 5 ground rods yesterday, only 2 went all the way in. And as you can see, we really tried. Not a problem, as I only needed one, and I bought 5 knowing we would have trouble. Hard clay with lots of rocks, especially about 4 feet down. We just cut off the ones that didn't go, and we will bond them together.
Video here!

can't imagine doing that job without hearing protection... those guys are going to regret it

 

[Vintage Veloce]

Doubt there's a footer on a garage in San Diego and if there is, it's sure as hell not 4' down. There is no frost line there. Likely just a thickened edge slab.

I built this building with the same guys who drove the ground rod. ;-)
So they know where the footer is.
The footer goes down, not out.

 

[Vintage Veloce]

If you have ufer, and are going to bond these rods to it anyway, why didn't you just bond the antenna to the ufer in the first place?

I wasn't smart enough to put an Ufer ground point outside the building. And I really wanted an outside ground point, just because, and gound rods are cheap. But I will ground this rod to the Ufer; the attachment is about 2 feet from this rod, but inside the wall.

 

[Ray-CA]

We had the same trouble driving rods for our solar system. Took them three attempts to get one rod down.

Ray

 

[Jim greengo]

I remember driving ground rods in the middle of a blizzard in minot nd years ago.
Ended up using an excavator to push them down through the frost!

 

[cybrdyke]

Here's a new product for driving ground rods. Not that it would have made any difference if you're hitting rocks, but at least you dont have to stand on a ladder to drive them.
CD

 

[mike93lx]

Here's a new product for driving ground rods. Not that it would have made any difference if you're hitting rocks, but at least you dont have to stand on a ladder to drive them.
CD

Wow, simple but impressive. Wonder if it really works that well

 

[rlitman]

Wow, simple but impressive. Wonder if it really works that well

I’m sure it depends on your ground conditions. In my sandy soil, I bet it will work. But the OP is driving his with a 35lb breaker hammer that puts SDS-max machines to shame, and still can’t drive the rods. I wonder though if some of the issue is the fact that a relatively thin rods just doesn’t transmit the impact that well over its length. Perhaps a thicker rod would drive better with that hammer.

 

[spudley]

Looks like they're going through some contortions to drive those rods perfectly plumb. Is it a code violation to put them in at a slight angle?

 

[ford33]

Holding that impact and standing on that ladder must have been very tiring. Hard to believe that didn't work. Good luck.

 

[Jim greengo]

Here's a new product for driving ground rods. Not that it would have made any difference if you're hitting rocks, but at least you dont have to stand on a ladder to drive them.
CD

I like that!

 

[woodzy]

In my location - you can almost push it down by hand in the sand.

 

[strutaeng]

No code requirement about plumbness. I had a hard time driving mine for detached garage also. Once the rod hits a solid rock it starts "dancing" and all of the energy from the impact goes nowhere below. I talked to an electrician friend of mine and he actually suggested I putting them at a 45. Even then, it won't go through solid rock.

If you tried several times without success I would talk to your inspector.

I live in an area that has solid limestone. Some small rocks, others huge and some seem go to infinity. Digging involves an air/demolition hammer! What a pain.

Good luck.

 

[Vintage Veloce]

Holding that impact and standing on that ladder must have been very tiring. Hard to believe that didn't work. Good luck.

Two of the five went all the way in. Actually the one in the video DID go all the way in, eventually. Got stock for a bit, and then maybe broke or pushed aside the rock and slowly crept down.

I actually had three locations I wanted the rods. At the first location we drove two that failed about half way down and then a third went in all the way. These were all about 12" apart in a line.

At the location in the picture and video, this one did go all the way in.

At the third location, the last full rod I had stopped about half way down, so we cut it. We then drove all the remaining pieces in in a line 12" apart. So that location has 4 half length rods. I may never need that location, but it seemed sensible to put in the rods since I had them.

These were 5/8" diameter rods. The guys actually didn't have much trouble with the procedure, they use the jackhammers around her a lot. But they had never personally driven rods before. I actually purchased the rod driving tip on Amazon for his machine. He commented that the heads of the rods didn't mushroom as much as he expected, and he was wondering if he should have used a BIGGER jackhammer! ;-)

 

[alfredeneuman]

They don't have a rule that it must be plumb.
In fact if you hit rock at less than 8' NEC Article 250.53 (G) allows you to dig a trench 30" or more deep, and install them horizontally.

 

[ard]

Actually the garage does have an excellent Ufer ground! But I didn't leave any external access to the Ufer, and for an antenna ground, I want to attach outside the building. (Don't worry, I'll bond these rods to the Ufer too.)

But here is a tip: make connections available to your Ufer inside the wall, inside the building and outside the building. If I have a "next time", I will.

You cant access thge UFER from outside...yet you can bond the external rods to the ufer???

FWIW- Ive used a low voltage double gang sheetrock ring (with a blank plate) to allow access to the ufer from inside. However I would not penetrate the building shell from the outside just for a port you might need once every 50 years

 

[Vintage Veloce]

You cant access thge UFER from outside...yet you can bond the external rods to the ufer???

Yeah, I know. ;-)
Since this is for lightning protection, I just wanted (can't really explain it) an outside ground rod connection too. Ground rods are cheap... if you can get them in.

 

[Mr_fixit]

That's right where the footer would be if I did that with the 2 garages that I had built.

 

[dscheidt]

Looks like they're going through some contortions to drive those rods perfectly plumb. Is it a code violation to put them in at a slight angle?

The letter of the NEC requires that they be driven 8 feet. If you're using an 8 foot rod, and you put it in at an angle, it won't be 8 feet. There is an exception that allows the rod to be driven at up to a 45 degree angle, if you hit bed rock. And if that's not good enough, you can bury the rods horizontally, as long as they're at least 30 (I think) inches deep. In practice, I doubt many inspectors care abut a few degrees, but more than that, in an area known to be easy to drive in would probably garner a raised eyebrow.

 

[ard]

The letter of the NEC requires that they be driven 8 feet. If you're using an 8 foot rod, and you put it in at an angle, it won't be 8 feet. There is an exception that allows the rod to be driven at up to a 45 degree angle, if you hit bed rock. And if that's not good enough, you can bury the rods horizontally, as long as they're at least 30 (I think) inches deep. In practice, I doubt many inspectors care abut a few degrees, but more than that, in an area known to be easy to drive in would probably garner a raised eyebrow.

Funny...no matter what angle I drive a ground rod in, the top 12 inches is always perfectly vertical.

 

[spudley]

Funny...no matter what angle I drive a ground rod in, the top 12 inches is always perfectly vertical.

That's exactly what I was thinking.
When I install my ground rods, I won't have any trouble as I'm on all sand. I can drive rods in with a tack hammer.