Furnace Issue

[DocPhilMD]

Okay, newbie here so bear with me fellas. I like to learn and I am patient so please be patient with me. This forum helped me tremendously last year when I installed a generator plug in my house. The amount of electrical that I learned from the process was amazing and I thank everyone for helping me. Now on to the issue.....

I have a Bryant Plus 90 furnace and please forgive me if I am not referring to the parts correctly. Today, the issue started. When the furnace kicks on, the motor starts running and then there is a loud click. Normally, after that, the ignitor starts clicking and after several clicks, the flame rod glows and the furnace starts. Today, the ignitor stopped clicking at all. So the motor just runs and runs. One time when I flicked power on the ignitor clicked 3 weak times and stopped. I tested a few different things with my DMM(sorry I can be specific if asked) and eventually took the ignitor out and examined it.

I pulled the thick orange wire that goes to the flame rod off and the tip of the ignitor was all rusty and brown dust fell out of the wire. I thought that this was most certainly the issue as the wire inside had disintegrated. So I cut the tip off and cleaned up the tip of the ignitor and reconnected everything. It still wouldn't work.

So my thought is that the ignitor is fried? My thermostat is **** too and I am going to get a new ignitor and thermostat tomorrow. any other thoughts?

 

[mcfly107]

Is your furnace in an open basement near your dryer? If so you're igniter may be fried. (My experience) I replaced 3 in ten years when I was still living with my parents. The fabric softener when dried would coat the igniter over time. You could usually get by through the winter by pulling it and taking a piece of sandpaper to it and cleaning the junk off. But they do fail and it would probably be the first item I would replace. I'm no expert this just sounds really similar to what happened to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DocPhilMD]

No its not but it certainly isn't the biggest dust free zone. I will take a picture of the ignitor and post it up here with some other pics of my setup.

But when I pulled the orange wire off, brown dust (disintegrated wire) fell out. So I figure that means something!

 

[DocPhilMD]

Here are some pics

 

[DocPhilMD]

Is your furnace in an open basement near your dryer? If so you're igniter may be fried. (My experience) I replaced 3 in ten years when I was still living with my parents. The fabric softener when dried would coat the igniter over time. You could usually get by through the winter by pulling it and taking a piece of sandpaper to it and cleaning the junk off. But they do fail and it would probably be the first item I would replace. I'm no expert this just sounds really similar to what happened to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You mean the spark igniter that I am holding in the picture correct? Thanks

Anyone know where to get this part quickly? I doubt any of my big box stores like home depot will have it and it is New years day?

 

[mcfly107]

Yes the spark igniter. The clicking a lot to take off and then not clicking at all is what is making me think it's shot. I'm not sure what places like HD would carry. A local hvac shop should have it in stock. Ours did and the furnace is well over 20 years old. Unfortunately most of those places will be closed on a Sunday. Hopefully someone will come along with something to get you by until Monday.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[theoldwizard1]

Yes the spark igniter. The clicking a lot to take off and then not clicking at all is what is making me think it's shot.

CONCUR !

Hopefully someone will come along with something to get you by until Monday.[/QUOTE]
I think you are dead in the water until Monday.

Check repairclinic.com. They have a warehouse in Canton, MI.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Check this video.

And this one too and replacing the ignitor. (your first image does not look like this)


This might get you through the day

 

[theoldwizard1]

Replacement part

Cheap on eBay if you can wait !

 

[DocPhilMD]

Awesome. Thanks guys. I love this site.

Any recommendations on a new thermostat? Mine took a **** too. I was able to fab it up to start working again but I need a new one ASAP and I should be able to work on that today and then get the igniter tomorrow. It is a 4 wire with a battery. My FIL had a 4 wire with no internal power source (battery) and it didn't work. Here is my unit with the face off.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Another question. Do I actually need to test the flame rod that heats up? Or just replace the spark igniter box? Thanks.

 

[Bronson]

There should be a flashing light inside the blower case. Turn up the stat to call for HEAT.Remove the door to the blower and hold the spring loaded door switch IN. As the cycle begins, you should see a light on the control module begin to flash. Count the flashes. Now, look on the inside of the blower door or cabinet. There should be a guide there that will tell you what code is being displayed by the flashes. It may say "igniter failure" or "blower motor failure" or something along those lines.
I believe you just need the actual igniter element, as they are rather fragile and prone to failure. When installing the new one, keep your oily fingers off of the igniter surface as much as possible. The oil on your skin can contribute to early failure. Good luck.

 

[DocPhilMD]

There should be a flashing light inside the blower case. Turn up the stat to call for HEAT.Remove the door to the blower and hold the spring loaded door switch IN. As the cycle begins, you should see a light on the control module begin to flash. Count the flashes. Now, look on the inside of the blower door or cabinet. There should be a guide there that will tell you what code is being displayed by the flashes. It may say "igniter failure" or "blower motor failure" or something along those lines.
I believe you just need the actual igniter element, as they are rather fragile and prone to failure. When installing the new one, keep your oily fingers off of the igniter surface as much as possible. The oil on your skin can contribute to early failure. Good luck.

How do I get the igniter element out? Pull the orange wire off then just grab some needle nose and pull it out towards me? I have heard the element is fragile and I don't want to break it. Should I just replace both items? What about replacing the orange wire? It did seem rather corroded on that one end.

 

[theoldwizard1]

The biggest HVAC installation and service company only uses White-Rodgers thermostats.


Doc, may it is time for a new furnace ? What looks to be the date code on that part say it was built in 1988 !

 

[DocPhilMD]

The biggest HVAC installation and service company only uses White-Rodgers thermostats.


Doc, may it is time for a new furnace ? What looks to be the date code on that part say it was built in 1988 !

Is there any specific type I need? Just a 4 wire with battery?

Yes, the furnace may need replaced soon.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Is there any specific type I need? Just a 4 wire with battery?

That is what they installed a couple of years ago when I had my A/C replaced. Automatic set back was $100 more.

 

[DocPhilMD]

There should be a flashing light inside the blower case. Turn up the stat to call for HEAT.Remove the door to the blower and hold the spring loaded door switch IN. As the cycle begins, you should see a light on the control module begin to flash. Count the flashes. Now, look on the inside of the blower door or cabinet. There should be a guide there that will tell you what code is being displayed by the flashes. It may say "igniter failure" or "blower motor failure" or something along those lines.
I believe you just need the actual igniter element, as they are rather fragile and prone to failure. When installing the new one, keep your oily fingers off of the igniter surface as much as possible. The oil on your skin can contribute to early failure. Good luck.

Is this what you are talking about replacing and not the whole ignition control module?

This thing was a ****** getting out!

 

[Bronson]

How do I get the igniter element out? Pull the orange wire off then just grab some needle nose and pull it out towards me? I have heard the element is fragile and I don't want to break it. Should I just replace both items? What about replacing the orange wire? It did seem rather corroded on that one end.

Did you run the diagnostic? Error code?
Your furnace may be old enough that it doesn't throw a code for troubleshooting.
I can' tell for sure on your furnace, but most igniters are secured by a single Philips head.
I would just replace the element at this time. If you can return it, go ahead and order the module, but you probably wont need it. Lots of places won't take a return on electrical components.
If you have enough slack in the orange wire, trim it back and install a new connector on the end. If possible, replace the whole wire.
Hope this helps you.

 

[Bronson]

Is this what you are talking about replacing and not the whole ignition control module?

This thing was a ****** getting out!

I have never changed one that took more than a minute to remove, not sure what the issue is?

Edit: That is the FLAME SENSOR, not the igniter
The igniter will have TWO wires going to it,unless I have forgotten more than I thought, I have been out of HVAC for a long while.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Yes.
I have never changed one that took more than a minute to remove, not sure what the issue is?

I had to remove the bottom panel of the flame box to get to it. Then the bracket had 2 awkwardly placed screws. The the igniter was held in by a tiny rusty screw.

Anyways I got it out. I will check the error code when I get the new Tstat. It took a **** after all this started.

So that beige rectangle is what I should replace correct?

Also there is no connection on the orange wire. It just slides over the pin

 

[Bronson]

I had to remove the bottom panel of the flame box to get to it. Then the bracket had 2 awkwardly placed screws. The the igniter was held in by a tiny rusty screw.

Anyways I got it out. I will check the error code when I get the new Tstat. It took a **** after all this started.

So that beige rectangle is what I should replace correct?

Also there is no connection on the orange wire. It just slides over the pin

See my edited post above.
BTW BE SURE the unit is unplugged while you do this.

 

[DocPhilMD]

See my edited post above.
BTW BE SURE the unit is unplugged while you do this.

Is the igniter in the flame box?

 

[Bronson]

Is the igniter in the flame box?

The igniter will be located below , and fastened to,the gas manifold, angled up to contact the gas, once the valve opens.

 

[DocPhilMD]

The igniter will be located below , and fastened to,the gas manifold, angled up to contact the gas, once the valve opens.

This?

 

[Bronson]

This?

Trace the wires going into that assembly, and the ignitor will be at the terminus. To be honest, I have not seen one that looks like that, but I have been away from HVAC for a long time.
Mine looks like this-

 

[DocPhilMD]

That picture is all there is

 

[Bronson]

Here is a google image of a Plus 90 igniter, it would probably work on a dozen different furnaces

 

[Showkey]

It hard to tell from the pics and descriptions................To me it looks and sounds like DOC has a sparking igniter NOT a hot surface igniter. ????????


The first picture in post 4 looks like spark unit ( black box) and the orange lead is the high tension spark lead.

Versus the picture in post 27 which in the newer hot surface igniter that glows when powered used on newer furnaces and is NOW the standard of the industry.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Is this what you are talking about replacing and not the whole ignition control module?

This thing was a ****** getting out!

That is your ignitor.

Tommy

 

[Bronson]

It hard to tell from the pics and descriptions................To me it looks and sounds like DOC has a sparking igniter NOT a hot surface igniter. ????????


The first picture in post 4 looks like spark unit ( black box) and the orange lead is the high tension spark lead.

Versus the picture in post 27 which in the newer hot surface igniter that glows when powered used on newer furnaces and is NOW the standard of the industry.

I believe you are correct, sir!
I should have kept my mouth shut!
Sorry I wasted your time, Doc!

 

[LS6 Tommy]

This?

That is your pilot burner and flame sensor assembly.

Multiple "ticking" and then none usually indicates you have a bad ignitor wire and it's grounding somewhere other than at the end of the ignitor. Make sure you replace the wire first. It's cheapest. In a pinch you can get away with piece of spark plug wire...

Tommy

 

[DocPhilMD]

That is your pilot burner and flame sensor assembly.

Multiple "ticking" and then none usually indicates you have a bad ignitor wire and it's grounding somewhere other than at the end of the ignitor. Make sure you replace the wire first. It's cheapest. In a pinch you can get away with piece of spark plug wire...

Tommy

So i was correct then? The beige rectangle with the orange wire is the igniter?

You're saying to replace the orange wire? I didn't replace it but I cut off the corroded end. It appears to be in good shape otherwise. That led me to the igniter control module or the actual igniter itself

 

[LS6 Tommy]

So i was correct then? The beige rectangle with the orange wire is the igniter?

You're saying to replace the orange wire? I didn't replace it but I cut off the corroded end. It appears to be in good shape otherwise. That led me to the igniter control module or the actual igniter itself

Yes, the beige ceramic rectangle with the short bent steel rod coming out of one end is the ignitor. The ignitor wire may be grounding out if you can't hear it ticking anymore. When the pilot burner and ignitor are assembled and in place, the ignitor rod should kind of point at the "hood" on the pilot burner so the spark arcs across the pilot orifice from the rod to the hood.

The wire may in fact still be good, but it's cheaper to try that before you buy any electrical parts as they may not be able to be returned.

If you buy everything at once, be sure to check with the vendor to see if unused unopened parts can be returned. Replace the wire first.

Tommy

 

[crankshaftdan II]

Awesome. Thanks guys. I love this site.

Any recommendations on a new thermostat? Mine took a **** too. I was able to fab it up to start working again but I need a new one ASAP and I should be able to work on that today and then get the igniter tomorrow. It is a 4 wire with a battery. My FIL had a 4 wire with no internal power source (battery) and it didn't work. Here is my unit with the face off.

Not a pro at this myself--had same issues with the furnace/thermostat, igniter and flame sensor due to dusty/dirty conditions in house. If the thermostat is not working/calling for heat-clean battery terminals with scotchbrite or simular materials-replace battery with new one/duracell or equivlent-check all solder connections for arcing/burnt/brown areas. Make sure you have "Good solid contact when you push the two pieces of thermo back together"!!!

Flame sensor as you pictured--use scotchbrite on the curved tip portion and then clean with alcohol swab/cotton ball(Brakeclean or equiv.) and do not handle or touch tip upon re-assy-use rubber glove if in doubt.

I've never seen your type of flame igniter b4, however if the wire was goofed up, remove bad part and re-assemble with good wire of same diameter or whatever works to get good current flow to same. Also as previously stated by other members-if you have sintered metal flame igniter or glow bar igniter---DO NOT touch the sintered/grayish material with bare fingers/hand as your body oil will contaminate same and it will fail.
This MAY/MAYNOT get you thru the day until you can replace the effected/bad/defective parts. And I always buy two of everything as a back-up as it will always break on a sunday/holiday when you can't come up with the parts to fix same---Just my two cent's worth---Been there done that!!! Cranky Good Luck

 

[goneflyin2002]

If your spark module (the black ignition module) had a burned out connection on top where the hi-tension lead went in, it probably has made an open circuit in that coil winding, caused by trying to spark with high resistance connections. Same as you'll burn out the ignition coil in your car if the plug leads are bad. You could test it with an ohmmeter to see if there's continuity. That sharp pin that goes into the wire when you 'screw' the wire in to make connection, has to be perfectly clean.

The bimetal strip switch (the three wire part) in the pilot assembly is prone to problems also. Good thing to check out.

Here's a guy you will get good info from:

 

[theoldwizard1]

If your spark module (the black ignition module) had a burned out connection on top where the hi-tension lead went in, it probably has made an open circuit in that coil winding, caused by trying to spark with high resistance connections. Same as you'll burn out the ignition coil in your car if the plug leads are bad. You could test it with an ohmmeter to see if there's continuity. That sharp pin that goes into the wire when you 'screw' the wire in to make connection, has to be perfectly clean.

This gets my vote ! I would get a new spark module and igniter with high tension lead.

The comparison to the voltage system on a car is PERFECT ! The spark module is the electronic ignition module and coil, high tension lead is the spark plug wire and igniter is the spark plug.

The igniter with high tension lead is part #LH31CM023 $42 on Amazon (NOT Prime). Cheaper on eBay. I would replace this FIRST !

 

[DocPhilMD]

If your spark module (the black ignition module) had a burned out connection on top where the hi-tension lead went in, it probably has made an open circuit in that coil winding, caused by trying to spark with high resistance connections. Same as you'll burn out the ignition coil in your car if the plug leads are bad. You could test it with an ohmmeter to see if there's continuity. That sharp pin that goes into the wire when you 'screw' the wire in to make connection, has to be perfectly clean.

The bimetal strip switch (the three wire part) in the pilot assembly is prone to problems also. Good thing to check out.

Here's a guy you will get good info from:

When I Ohm it where do I put the leads? And if the noise comes on that means it is good or bad?

 

[goneflyin2002]

When I Ohm it where do I put the leads? And if the noise comes on that means it is good or bad?

Hi Doc,

On further research, your style of ignitor is not a simple spark transformer, it's a complete standalone spark generator unit. Unless you're good at electronics, just testing with an ohmmeter won't tell you anything. You can however test whether the 24VAC is making it to the input terminals T1, T2.

Set the thermostat to call for heat, and set your meter to AC volts, and probe the T1 and T2 terminals. If you have 24VAC, and no spark, the unit is bad.

First, you must make sure you have good secondary connections- the orange hi-tension lead going to the spark gap near the pilot. Check that the spark gap clearance is ok too.

If you don't have good 24VAC, you almost certainly have a bad pilot switch (the 3 wire job near the pilot flame). This pilot switch outfit can be cleaned up for short term repairs, but replace for long term.

Also, you mentioned the thermostat is not good. This will cause all these problems too, as you may not have good solid call for heat.

My furnace one time gave me fits because I had a high resistance at the thermostat, giving only about 14VAC heat signal to the furnace control instead of a good 24VAC. Replacing the thermostat fixed that for me.

 

[DocPhilMD]

^^^^super helpful!!! Thanks. I'm headed to the store tomorrow. Will keep you posted. Thermostat is fixed and still having issues

 

[goneflyin2002]

^^^^super helpful!!! Thanks. I'm headed to the store tomorrow. Will keep you posted. Thermostat is fixed and still having issues

Please do keep us posted.

Here's a diagram I just found of a furnace similar to yours. It has the same ignitor parts.

So looking at this, it says the (3 wire) pilot switch 6H, at cold rest, should have the green and yellow wires in continuity. They are normally closed switch contacts. This will supply 24VAC to your ignitor, 6F, on terminals T1 and T2. After the pilot lights successfully and heats up the bimetal pilot switch, that NC switch opens (which stops the ignitor spark circuit) and then the normally open contacts close, which supplies power to the gas valve 5F and then the main burners will light.

You should be able to check the continuity of the pilot switch 6H. Set your meter to ohms x1. Right now, when cold, your ohmmeter probing between the green and yellow wires should show zero ohms or close to it. White and yellow should show open, or infinity. You should unplug the switch 6H first, to make a valid check, so that other parts of the circuit don't influence your checking.