Future proofing Main panel and electric needs

[globalmax]

In the middle of house construction using a builder. Has typical electrical needs for a house with AC, Dryer, oven, water heater etc etc. In the garage, planning to have two 240V 50 Amp electric car chargers, One 240v 20 amp outlet for a car lift or light power tools, some extra lights etc.

Electricians used by the home builder is expensive, builder will have additional mark ups if something is asked on top of standard items offered.
So trying to minimize things now with a view to add and do things at a later point in future. At the same time, if its much easier, less expensive to do it while
the construction is going on then that is another angle to consider.

What is the best way for to communicate this to the electrician? Should I ask for a high Amp panel? Ask him to leave enough space for breakers?

 

[AA/FC]

Don't ask them... tell them.

Tell them exactly what your plans are. Tell them exactly what you want. If your "wants" require a bigger panel with a higher amperage service, (than what comes included with the original price of construction) then it's absolutely going to be cheaper to make that change and have it installed now. It's never cheaper to do things a second time.... Not in my experience, anyway. Once the panel is installed, you can add your own circuits later. There is nothing wrong with telling them you want a bigger panel/service for future expansion. It's your house, you can have whatever you want.

Just my $0.02

 

[PCustoms]

Where will the panel be?

I'd consider having a dedicated sub panel put in the garage, or have a chase run somewhere so you can pull wire(s) at a later time.

 

[mike93lx]

The main panels, or a sub panel, in the garage makes things a lot easier for future changes. Drywall patching is cheap and easy, so don't be afraid of that down the road.

Unless you are going to diy the changes later, just have them done now. It will never be cheaper

 

[larry4406]

I’m thinking 400A service.

200A connect to an automatic transfer panel. Cherry pick your house loads and put them there.

200A panel in the garage. This goes dark on loss of offsite power. Put non-essential house loads there.

Add generator and garage loads later.

Prewire now for low voltage wires to hvac units so can load shed later.

 

[cowboyjosh]

In the middle of house construction using a builder. Has typical electrical needs for a house with AC, Dryer, oven, water heater etc etc. In the garage, planning to have two 240V 50 Amp electric car chargers, One 240v 20 amp outlet for a car lift or light power tools, some extra lights etc.

Electricians used by the home builder is expensive, builder will have additional mark ups if something is asked on top of standard items offered.
So trying to minimize things now with a view to add and do things at a later point in future. At the same time, if its much easier, less expensive to do it while
the construction is going on then that is another angle to consider.

What is the best way for to communicate this to the electrician? Should I ask for a high Amp panel? Ask him to leave enough space for breakers?

As an electrical contractor we always meet with the homeowner. Are you building a custom or a tract? Production homes you are stuck with everything thru the builder allot of times and they don't usually offer much extra since the contractor is doing the work per square foot. If it's a custom build you are in complete control (at least when we do the electric and low volt). Either way get it dont on the front size, its cheaper then doing it later

 

[theoldwizard1]

Ask what the "standard" panel is, amperage and number of slots. Have them upgrade that.

If the garage is going to be drywalled, installed more outlets of any type will be a pain will be a pain unless you use surface mount conduit.

 

[globalmax]

It is a custom build with a predetermined price for the house agreed up on based on the plan. As I mentioned earlier, prices are not reasonable if something is asked in addition to the standard items offered. So trying to minimize things now with a view to add and do things at a later point in future.

Talking about the prices...Just as an example, quoted price is $1500 to have an EV Charger outlet installed with 240v 50 amp receptacle. The EV out let should be 2 to 3 feet away from the main panel/breakers in the garage. Power comes to the meter just out side the garage wall and main panel/breakers are in the garage.

 

[justsam]

Sounds like this is a production home with various options available to the buyer. If it is a custom home that has been done at a fixed agreed price, it sounds like anything done now is a "change order". My sister in law just moved into a new production home, with many "options" offered during the design/specification phase, but once agreed, it is locked. They did offer an EV option and it was $400 for a NEMA 14-50 in the garage, which she did purchase in spite of not owning an EV, yet.

 

[Jim greengo]

I hate dealing with builders,especially on cookie cutter houses.

 

[tool_scrounge]

Make sure the new panel has extra unused space for future expansion.

 

[tool_scrounge]

A lot of builders around here use Square-D Homeline breakers and panels. For garage and washer/dryer circuits, consider using the “high magnetic” breakers. These are basically “slow blow” relays as they will not trip when starting motors or other momentary high current loads. They’re available in 15A and 20A versions. Can make a big difference in eliminating nuisance trips.

https://www.se.com/us/en/product/HO...120-240vac-10ka-air-high-magnetic-plug-in-ul/

https://www.se.com/us/en/product/HO...120-240vac-10ka-air-high-magnetic-plug-in-ul/

 

[PCustoms]

A lot of builders around here use Square-D Homeline breakers and panels. For garage and washer/dryer circuits, consider using the “high magnetic” breakers. These are basically “slow blow” relays as they will not trip when starting motors or other momentary high current loads. They’re available in 15A and 20A versions. Can make a big difference in eliminating nuisance trips.

https://www.se.com/us/en/product/HO...120-240vac-10ka-air-high-magnetic-plug-in-ul/

https://www.se.com/us/en/product/HO...120-240vac-10ka-air-high-magnetic-plug-in-ul/

I've never had a problem with the standard ones...

 

[tool_scrounge]

I've never had a problem with the standard ones...

It depends a lot on your loads.

I never had an issue with nuisance trips with my old panel. But when I had the new panel installed, the electricians warned me the new breakers would be more “sensitive” than the old ones. They were correct. So the “high magnetic” breakers solved the problem.

 

[inphx]

My challenges 3 years after build were McGuyvering in a DIY permitted "off grid solar". At first i wanted a whole house Gen Transfer switch like setup (too intrusive to DIY retrofit) but settled for taking two of three panels off grid with the major loads like AC and the Garage outbuilding.

 

[globalmax]

Not decided on generator options. If going with a small generator, I understand that a generator plug with inter lock switch is an option.
Any pre wiring needed if going with a full house generator in future? Any advantage in doing it now vs later?

 

[dcg9381]

I’m thinking 400A service.
200A connect to an automatic transfer panel. Cherry pick your house loads and put them there.
200A panel in the garage. This goes dark on loss of offsite power. Put non-essential house loads there.

400A is a boat-ton of power. For "sane" sized houses, assuming no electric tankless I'd just split the 200 into critical and non-critical. With a 20KW generator "most homes" don't need to split load.

Putting an ATS in now will be a lot easier (and less expensive) than later. I'd have that done.

I would specify location of sub-panels, one in the garage for sure.

Prewire now for low voltage wires to hvac units so can load shed later.

Load shed modules from generac no longer need control wires, FYI. They are glorified "restart timers" that monitor voltage and frequency to detect an overload condition.

 

[dcg9381]

Not decided on generator options. If going with a small generator, I understand that a generator plug with inter lock switch is an option.
Any pre wiring needed if going with a full house generator in future? Any advantage in doing it now vs later?

An interlock could be added later and it's not a huge deal (assuming a number of factors) but it's ALWAYS easier to do it up front. An interlock will likely be limiting you to 50-60A, so that's "partial coverage" with a mid-sized generator.

Full house, put the ATS in now. It's a LOT easier to do it now. Easier = cheaper (usually)

Solar - if you're doing that what you really need is conduit in the right places.

 

[globalmax]

One option I was thinking was to go with a partial house generator route now with generator plug, inter lock switch etc as a temporary solution till the time a full house generator is finalized may be 1 year down the line. In that case, I assume the work done/ money spent for partial house generator will be a throw away money

 

[75gmck25]

Just a couple minor points to consider.
- 50 amp circuits for EV chargers are common, but very few cars have an onboard charger that will pull more than 32-40 amps. The charger in the car negotiates the charge rate with your 50 amp charger, and the car is in control You may never need to hit 50 amps.
If you already have the EV, make sure the charger location makes sense. For example, the receptacle on my PHEV is in the right rear, but my charger is on the wall in the left front. With 22 feet of cable it's barely long enough.

- with the switch to LEDs, lighting circuits have a much lower draw than in the past. I still like some granularity in different rooms or levels on each breaker, but I doubt many lighting circuits ever come close to drawing 15 amps.

 

[mike93lx]

Just a couple minor points to consider.
- 50 amp circuits for EV chargers are common, but very few cars have an onboard charger that will pull more than 32-40 amps. The charger in the car negotiates the charge rate with your 50 amp charger, and the car is in control You may never need to hit 50 amps.
If you already have the EV, make sure the charger location makes sense. For example, the receptacle on my PHEV is in the right rear, but my charger is on the wall in the left front. With 22 feet of cable it's barely long enough.

A 50a circuit means a max charging rate of 40a (constant load means the circuit needs to be sized at 125%), anyway, so there isn't much wasted headroom.

 

[globalmax]

One option I was thinking was to go with a partial house generator route now with generator plug, inter lock switch etc as a temporary solution till the time a full house generator is finalized may be 1 year down the line. In that case, I assume the work done/ money spent for partial house generator will be a throw away money

Anyone?

 

[mike93lx]

Anyone?

Installing an interlock, inlet and 10/3 wire will be pretty cheap. It's <$200 in parts.

 

[larry4406]

Load shed modules from generac no longer need control wires, FYI. They are glorified "restart timers" that monitor voltage and frequency to detect an overload condition.

The Generac transfer switches we have been getting have 4 dry contact priority switches. You intercept the low voltage power line to the AC unit’s contactor and you can drop it out.

Or you can buy load shed modules for $150-200 each and drop out the load side of the AC units and not utilize the dry contacts as you suggest.

 

[rjacobs]

400A SERVICE

I say again

400A SERVICE


Your wire coming off of the transformer has to be able to support 400A. To do this later is generally $$$$$$$$$$$$$ because its "generally" buried underground and then your driveway and other **** is placed above it so to replace it is a MASSIVE job.


2 full real panels.

When they come off the meter pan have them use a dedicated external disconnect for each panel. Code requires an external accessible disconnect for each panel in a house. The meter head can act as one. Dont let them do this, use an actual second disconnect. they are CHEAP. IF and when you put a generator in, like a Generac, they have their own smart disconnects so you just remove your manual disconnects and install the Generac's in their place.


The rest of everything you want to do can likely be done later for super cheap.

We obviously dont know the physical layout of your house to know if it would be easy or difficult to run wires, only you can determine that.

 

[mike93lx]

Is it really 400a service or 320a with two 200a panels?

My house has 320a, but needs nowhere near it, especially with gas for furnaces and hot water. Service size aside, the large dual panels are nice to have

 

[dcg9381]

Anyone? <interlock>

Meh. This is what I use at the shop (only 6/3)... It's a nice option to have, perhaps unnecessary after a whole-house genset install, but I'd keep it around in case I wanted to run for an extended time on a smaller standby generator.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Not decided on generator options. If going with a small generator, I understand that a generator plug with inter lock switch is an option.
Any pre wiring needed if going with a full house generator in future? Any advantage in doing it now vs later?

If you are going to purchase a "full house generator in the future", many (most?) local codes require a generator that can handle the MAXIMUM possible load ! That would include heat pump or A/C and any electric vehicle charging circuits. The alternative is a "load shedding" device that would segregate heavy loads from the rest of the house when the generator is on. This might mean a second load center/breaker panel for those loads.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

One option I was thinking was to go with a partial house generator route now with generator plug, inter lock switch etc as a temporary solution till the time a full house generator is finalized may be 1 year down the line. In that case, I assume the work done/ money spent for partial house generator will be a throw away money

correct. an interlock would not be useable with a full house ATS or MTS (manual transfer switch)... entirely different animals....

 

[Packard V8]

Any time I see "future proofing" I think of the house which had a telephone line, an intercom line and a hifi speaker line run to every room.

jack vines

 

[dcg9381]

correct. an interlock would not be useable with a full house ATS or MTS (manual transfer switch)... entirely different animals....

Why not? As long as the interlock is AFTER the ATS and locks out the main (fed by the ATS), why can't you have both?

The reason why I'd want this is so during an "extended outage" I don't have to run the 20K genset that's burning a lot of propane... I could switch to something smaller.

 

[Norcal]

If you are going to purchase a "full house generator in the future", many (most?) local codes require a generator that can handle the MAXIMUM possible load ! That would include heat pump or A/C and any electric vehicle charging circuits. The alternative is a "load shedding" device that would segregate heavy loads from the rest of the house when the generator is on. This might mean a second load center/breaker panel for those loads.

It it was on a automatic transfer switch, then the gen needs to be able handle the entire load, but having load shedding would make that easier, manual transfer is not as complicated or convenient.

 

[sparky 1971]

I'll throw a couple things out: if the house has a basement, get a panel in the unfinished part as well as the garage, and have some 1" smurf pipes (ent) run from the panel(s) to the attic.

 

[Norcal]

I'll throw a couple things out: if the house has a basement, get a panel in the unfinished part as well as the garage, and have some 1" smurf pipes (ent) run from the panel(s) to the attic.

I was thinking of suggesting spare conduits, I skipped that when my house was remodeled 30 years ago, & had to open the wall to add something a few years ago. It had saved my hide to have pipe as a spare too.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If it was on a automatic transfer switch, then the gen needs to be able handle the entire load, but having load shedding would make that easier, manual transfer is not as complicated or convenient.

Most local inspector will allow a smaller generator if it has automatic load shedding.

If the "heavy loads" (heat pump or A/C, electric water heater or stove, vehicle battery charger) are wired on circuits NOT covered by the generator then it is possible to MANUALLY transfer their load to the generator AFTER it starts up.

 

[nadogail]

Not decided on generator options. If going with a small generator, I understand that a generator plug with inter lock switch is an option.
Any pre wiring needed if going with a full house generator in future? Any advantage in doing it now vs later?

Pre wiring future needs is, IMHO, always cheaper than "After The Need Is Discovered".

 

[Metal-Marc]

Any time I see "future proofing" I think of the house which had a telephone line, an intercom line and a hifi speaker line run to every room.

Quite helpful if you want to turn your house into a museum.