Game Over Journeymen

[mobiledynamics]

Any fellow tradesman here.....

Just a weekend warrior here. Been looking a hard look at the pro press system for some H20 work that would benefit from a no-flame point (got plenty of torches and the like).

In my research , cannot believe how many trades have gone to press for H20, GAS and HVAC (mega / zoomlock).zero training, anyone can just - press-

I still will want a soldered fitting anyday for my own properties, and have a full threader kit in my stash for black pipe. I do have pex tooling, but I use this for certain situations where I am going tight and flush on a wall stub up.

I guess gone are the days when one looks at how copper or steel is joined, the quality of the joints, etc, etc. I guess for now, I will just have to appreciate the tig welding on other things.

 

[RAM2940]

Im a HVAC mech, used this quite a bit doing condensor loop lines, but always wonder how long those orings are going to last. Dont think i would ever want to put this in a wall where you cant see it.

 

[brewchief]

I have both pro-press and zoomlock tools on my truck, like anything else there is a time and place for them. It's nice to be able to install a water heater and not have to fire a torch up in someones house, if you have never set off an alarm system that calls the fire dept and the homeowner has no clue how to disarm then you might not appreciate it as much. The abilty to slide a valve onto a pipe that has water pouring out of it , press it and turn off the valve is pretty good as well.

We don't use the zoomlock that much but it sure is nice to not have to drag torches into an attic and then worry about dropping a hot and catching the house on fire.

Does it take some skill out of the job? Sure it does but the same could be said years back when PVC replaced cast iron drains with poured lead joints.

With how few young people are entering the trades making things easier on the old guys makes some sense.

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[Rc_Guy]

Sprinkler fitter here, we still thread 2" and smaller pipe, although we have done a few MRI rooms and had to sweat copper. 2-1/2" and larger is usually grooved couplings.

 

[mobiledynamics]

I've only seen Victaulic for sprinkler fittings where it's not under constant pressure.

I had a old-timer up on my roof - all he does is service. The young guns do the install and all they use are compressions. He was telling me a story about post install, he had to find a leak. System was pressurized for 24 hrs , etc. Ended up needing to cut X drywall, etc on the interior of a finished property, ultimately to find what was most likely a nicked o ring from a bad install. And of course, he brazed the joint connection and did no use the compression.

Call me old school on drain lines. I still would want CI-No hub as it's quieter. I'm OK with pvc on the vent off the CI tho....and easier/faster to boot

Brewchief - I dont see a issue in a exposed application on water heater, where if properly installed, the plumb-up would probably get replaced at the 6-8-10-12 year mark whenever the water heater got replaced.

I just can't see whole installs where this stuff is buried

 

[fitter30]

I've done chilled and hot water systems with vic and pro press and haven't had any more problems that a soft solder job. Pro press for refrigeration had problems with leaks when it first came out but would use it now only when a burn permit is needed or smoke is a problem.

 

[mobiledynamics]

awesome feedback sofar. Find it kinda/sorta interesting. The O Ring is the big question mark for me . If or when it fails....

 

[samss]

HVACR Tech here, mainly refrigeration, 24 yrs. My paw-in-law started in this business in the early 1960’s and has seen many changes, mostly for the better. He used star bits and a hammer to drill holes in concrete for anchors. Almost cussed me when I bought a Bosch Bulldog SDS, until I let him use it. Now I’m looking at an M18 SDS with the vac attachment. Concrete dust is bad for your lungs, but we used to not think twice about it.
Two years ago on a new construction of an elementary school, all of the copper plumbing was zoomlock. The GC and School District figured it would be a good test for quality and job cost. No problems so far.
Carpal tunnel pain gave me the incentive to figure out a better way to cut, ream and clean copper tubing for brazing. Milwaukee M12 tubing cutter and a couple of M12 3/8 drills with a step bit and Mil-Rose wire brush made a world of difference.
The best is yet to come…...where’s my Star Trek transporter, replicator, tricorder, etc?

 

[samss]

I will add:
Just as with copper brazing, the zoomlock connections will have to be done right. Dirty copper doesn't sweat or braze and ragged tube ends will not work on zoomlock.

 

[Farmall450]

awesome feedback sofar. Find it kinda/sorta interesting. The O Ring is the big question mark for me . If or when it fails....

I've seen this and wondered it too...but with how widespread their use it, I feel that they can't be total trash?

 

[brewchief]

I will add:
Just as with copper brazing, the zoomlock connections will have to be done right. Dirty copper doesn't sweat or braze and ragged tube ends will not work on zoomlock.

I agree 100%, I think it takes just as long with the zoomlock if you take the time to properly prep the ends as it takes to braze, one advantage to the zoomlock is no oxides from brazing inside the lines making for s cleaner system. Even when purging with nitrogen when brazing you will get some oxides. Same thing with water lines and flux from soldering.

Lots of time it boils down to using the right tools for the job and being willing to look at the new technology that makes the job better and easier.

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[mobiledynamics]

I try to look at it from all different angles Farmall. I get the faster setup, takedown, install. On the flip side, once a -pro- leaves the job, and whether the warranty is 90 days, 1 year, 3 years , whatever, it's all hands off and whatever the issue is past warranty, it is what is if there is a leak and service call/repair.

I do see the pro's of zoomlock and cleaner lines....

Eh, for those *green* folks, I can see how they can say their entire propress house has-no lead-......and whatnot.

 

[Jim greengo]

I'll stick with my turbo torch and stay brite8,havent burned down anything yet after all of these years.

 

[American Locomotive]

At my last job, we had a variety of different piping contractors. It was interesting. Some say they wouldn't touch pro-press with a 10 foot pole, others told me vic and threading fittings were dead and the only thing they do now is press.

The o-rings can definitely cope with the pressure, but my concern is long-term durability. You see rubber o-rings and gaskets leak all the time in the auto industry. Even in that facility, we had lots of those "quick connect" fittings for air and hydraulic lines. You just slide the hose in, and an o-ring seals against the OD. It was pretty common for them to start leaking after a few years.

Take victaulic for example. The fittings are typically extremely reliable, but are known to occasionally leak, especially in hot water applications that make experience frequent temperature swings.

 

[danski0224]

I see lots of press fittings on commercial jobs.

It's LOTS faster and as long as the prep is good, no leaks. I usually see a set of colored marks at each crimp (each guy/gal has a color) and the minimum insertion mark made with a Sharpie.

And press fittings are buried in walls.

I've talked with the counter guys at one supply house, and the wham bam water heater guys use it too... at least to get a new valve in place.

I'm not too fond of it. The pipe moves when it is crimped, so a neat install is harder (but, who cares about that anymore, right...).

I have heard (but not confirmed) that at least 1 manufacturer puts a 50 year warranty on the O ring. Field made solder joints would have just the typical parts/labor warranty offered by the installing contractor, right?

The same supply house I deal with will lend the tool if you buy the fittings from them (some scheduling may be needed). Otherwise, it is a big investment.

 

[mobiledynamics]

I'm leaning on the m12 Propress bare tool with the Ridgid compact Jaws. Those jaws are really nice. And, the zoomlocks fit the M12 platform. For me, I'll probably only will use this for H20.

The only singular objection would be the M18 crimps awhole lot more, but I don't see myself pressing gas lines and such...

 

[b-boy]

What are the o-rings made of? Are they silicone or rubber?

 

[Rc_Guy]

I've only seen Victaulic for sprinkler fittings where it's not under constant pressure.

We use Victaulic fittings on every system and test to 200 psi for 2 hours.

 

[mobiledynamics]

On the Viega ProPress, it's EPDM. No idea on the others as I have not looked into them...

 

[Chuckster in NJ]

I have a plumbing contractor friend of mine who uses Zoomlocks on a daily basis and I asked him if he would use "Zoomers" in his PERSONAL $750,000 home that he is now building and he said: NO WAY!

BTW! I am old enough to remember that ALUMINUM WIRE was the "future" of wiring in homes.

 

[nh_yota]

Homeowner here. I personally think the propress fittings look like a hack job. My neighbor just had his boiler replaced and the installers used propress. Granted they did a half-assed job but the propress made it look worse. We were talking to another plumber friend of ours who uses propress and he said that it's really a two-man job, one for holding the pipe and fittings together and the other for crimping with the tool.

 

[mobiledynamics]

It may look more (hack) just because one should mark the line before you press, just to make sure the fitting did not back out a bit during pressing. IMO it does not look as refined as looks like a dog chewed over all the connections ;-)

It's sorta a interesting debate I suppose because until I looked at the tooling recently and took a deep dive, and based on some of the comments here, many of the trades have gone the press route as the Primary Means. Case in point when I had a service tech at the house and he was telling me how the install crew only uses press and the backstory of him fixing a *leak* in the run due to a nicked o-ring/ and when he was attending that particular offending joint, he brazed it.

 

[mobiledynamics]

Off topic. How many of you guys live in Pex Land. I don't like it for anything, but it is AWESOME for tight areas. I've got super flat Runtal Baseboard - there' like about 1" or so in depth. What I do is stub up tight to the RO - then transition to pex *due to it's flexibility* to make the connection from the stub to baseboard and then fix/hang/mount the baseboard flush to the wall.

 

[Farmall450]

Off topic. How many of you guys live in Pex Land. I don't like it for anything, but it is AWESOME for tight areas. I've got super flat Runtal Baseboard - there' like about 1" or so in depth. What I do is stub up tight to the RO - then transition to pex *due to it's flexibility* to make the connection from the stub to baseboard and then fix/hang/mount the baseboard flush to the wall.

Unsure of the legality wrt code here, we have it ran for our outside boiler and it hasn't leaked a drop in all these years. I wouldn't hesitate to use it for all your plumbing.

 

[mobiledynamics]

-Outside Boiler - ? Pex degrades in UV....

 

[mobiledynamics]

I have a plumbing contractor friend of mine who uses Zoomlocks on a daily basis and I asked him if he would use "Zoomers" in his PERSONAL $750,000 home that he is now building and he said: NO WAY!

Ha Chuck. That's sorta partial to this thread. If the connections are good enough that someone will use it and charge a customer, then is is -good enough- that you would use it in your OWN home. I understand the pros of dripping wet lines and pressing.....vs trying to bread/jet sweat the dripping line though....

Is speed taking precedence over reliability ?

 

[Jackfre]

I feel like a time machine. When I began the pipe trades you built a bathroom of CI, lead and oakum. You built it on the floor threw it onto a high lift and putt in place. No-hub came along with its requirement of one hanger per fitting and I went from putting pipe together to drilling overhead, 3/4 Redheads for a million hangers. Weld to Victaulic. Plastic and pex.
Most of the guys in the trades that I know are not sweating copper on a regular basis. It is all crimp. Going to crimp is your choice and will depend upon how you run your work. If you are in a competitive environment you will be outbid consistently and if you get the job, you will have a lower net.

 

[MFolks]

O rings can be Buna,Viton,Neoprene, EPDM,Nitrile, Nitrile rubber,Polyurethane, PTFE,Ethylene propylene rubber, Fluorocarbon rubber,so many types....

 

[BD1]

Propress has its place. We did a Union job in a paint manufacturing facility. We got the because of propress, no open flame so they didn't have to shut down anything. Nice ,clean, and quick.
Another factor is NO fire watch. Yes, many places requie dedicated fire watch even using a "B" tank.
Piping with propress can require more skill because of fitting tolerances. Replacing boilers or coils using propress will require more layout to allow gun to fit.
Prefabbing helps but no room for error.
Adding tees or valves in a existing waterline it's great. Shut it down, cut, and no issues with water flowing . No lower or raising of line for water control.
Propress fittings and tools have come down but still pricy.
Water heater replacement where most shutoff valves leak, it's great. Pretty hard to beat.


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[American Locomotive]

We use Victaulic fittings on every system and test to 200 psi for 2 hours.

On top of that, what sprinkler system isn't under constant pressure? The vast majority are at city water pressure 24/7.

The only exception I can think of would be deluge system.

 

[BD1]

Many Sprinkler Systems are DRY systems.
These are filled with air or nitrogen .
These are common in areas where water in system would freeze, like unheated parking garage.
Here's info if you're interested.


https://www.vfpfire.com/systems-dry-pipe.php


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[kevink1955]

But that air is under pressure 24/7. around 30 psi and is holding a dry pipe valve closed. when a head melts the air is released and the water follows.

Dry systems may have more corrosion than wet systems from condensation, the air pressure is maintained by a small compressor and constantly introducing moisture to the piping.

Vitalic has always been the go to system around here for fire sprinklers

 

[theoldwizard1]

Im a HVAC mech, used this quite a bit doing condensor loop lines, but always wonder how long those orings are going to last. Dont think i would ever want to put this in a wall where you cant see it.

Any kind of plumb joint INSIDE of a wall is a bad idea !

Brazing maybe coming back ! I just read an article that CO2 may be the next "new" refrigerant. All the "greenies" are crying about it being bad for the atmosphere, but all of the currently used refrigerants are actually worse.

It is a good refrigerant (R744) but it is not perfect. The operating pressures are much higher and the temperatures out of the compressor are higher. Nothing outrageous, but I would braze every joint.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I'll stick with my turbo torch and stay brite8,havent burned down anything yet after all of these years.

me too

 

[johnnyradiant]

I have a plumbing contractor friend of mine who uses Zoomlocks on a daily basis and I asked him if he would use "Zoomers" in his PERSONAL $750,000 home that he is now building and he said: NO WAY!

BTW! I am old enough to remember that ALUMINUM WIRE was the "future" of wiring in homes.

I'm old enough to remember a lot of 'it is not the future' as well. It is also not the end of the world and it still has it's place in the grid today.

 

[Jim greengo]

Any kind of plumb joint INSIDE of a wall is a bad idea !

Brazing maybe coming back ! I just read an article that CO2 may be the next "new" refrigerant. All the "greenies" are crying about it being bad for the atmosphere, but all of the currently used refrigerants are actually worse.

It is a good refrigerant (R744) but it is not perfect. The operating pressures are much higher and the temperatures out of the compressor are higher. Nothing outrageous, but I would braze every joint.

C02 is full of moisture.

 

[American Locomotive]

Many Sprinkler Systems are DRY systems.
These are filled with air or nitrogen .
These are common in areas where water in system would freeze, like unheated parking garage.
Here's info if you're interested.


https://www.vfpfire.com/systems-dry-pipe.php


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dry systems are filled with pressurized air that keeps the city water out of the pipe.

 

[Rc_Guy]

On top of that, what sprinkler system isn't under constant pressure? The vast majority are at city water pressure 24/7.

The only exception I can think of would be deluge system.

The systems with a fire pump are at about 150 psi there whole time.

But that air is under pressure 24/7. around 30 psi and is holding a dry pipe valve closed. when a head melts the air is released and the water follows.

Dry systems may have more corrosion than wet systems from condensation, the air pressure is maintained by a small compressor and constantly introducing moisture to the piping.

Vitalic has always been the go to system around here for fire sprinklers

We do install air dryers with desiccant Air Dryers.

 

[bonneyman]

I'm willing to bet that it's all about cost savings, and eliminating the skilled craftsman would save alot. Not just anybody can do brazing well (hell, even after all these years I still struggle to get great joints), but anybody can be taught to do the press fittings.
(Heck IIRC, Trane had a coupling system to repair leaks on the aluminum parts of their coils, and that was liquid line pressure. Neat little kit they offered, saved alot of bacon! So non-brazed connections aren't a new idea at all).

It's like the debate decades ago when duct systems went from mostly sheet metal ducting to flex duct. Anybody could be trained in a day to install flex, and it allowed all sorts of crazy architecture. The trained metalman got squeezed out - nowadays most all new residential construction is flex. Airflow is horrible, but it's cheaper, so it flies.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I'm fine with Pro Press and Mega Press. None of that type of stuff for refrigeration lines for me. Seen too many of them leak.

Tommy