Game Over Journeymen

[Jim greengo]

I'm willing to bet that it's all about cost savings, and eliminating the skilled craftsman would save alot. Not just anybody can do brazing well (hell, even after all these years I still struggle to get great joints), but anybody can be taught to do the press fittings.
(Heck IIRC, Trane had a coupling system to repair leaks on the aluminum parts of their coils, and that was liquid line pressure. Neat little kit they offered, saved alot of bacon! So non-brazed connections aren't a new idea at all).

It's like the debate decades ago when duct systems went from mostly sheet metal ducting to flex duct. Anybody could be trained in a day to install flex, and it allowed all sorts of crazy architecture. The trained metalman got squeezed out - nowadays most all new residential construction is flex. Airflow is horrible, but it's cheaper, so it flies.

Flex ductwork has plenty of drawbacks over rigid.

 

[mobiledynamics]

I've exhausted all my research on whether I'm springing for the tool
Just a weekend warrior here that has a full set of plumbing tools, torches, M12 pex press, chain pipe cutter and a Ridgid 300

Regardless of speed, etc - the jointwork on the press looks like poop.
I'll be getting the Pro Press for the task I want to use it. Might keep it or might not afterwards. Resale on them is pretty good, like all good high end things......On my M18 KO set, one spark had both his trucks broken into and he had a pretty decent night job lined up with no hydraulic or battery KO's that very day. Happened to sell mine for a slight profit.

 

[4 FN 27]

I had a Whole House Filter added to my Shop for the Water Jet. The Plumber used the Crimps. When I saw it I cringed. Had I known I would have told him to just leave the Tank there and I would do it.

It bothered me so much that when I went to add the Water Softener I cut all of his work out and redid it.

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[59 wagon man]

though I love my propress there is no way it will completely replace soldering on service and repair. sometimes the jaws or fittings just wont work

 

[mobiledynamics]

To put this thread in closing,though......will the current new generation of tradesman know how to torch down the line, or will the -new defacto- be press as the standard with all the dog-chewed up lines as the new norm when you walk into a boiler room

I was watching this youtube video - gent likes to use the press tool. I saw one repair on a coupler, but the fitting he used at the end of the day was not a proper die-electric break. Or this same youtube plumber, showing a buried copper repair, but he used hard copper to repair the break.

Will the mentality be without further knowledge, if you can press it and it don't leak, good enough...

I understand the value of it, for situations where lines are dripping and one can knock out a repair....but I guess call me a dinosaur. I still want soldered/threaded connections on the pipework. And no solvent/glue for me. I'll take no-hub anyday

 

[danski0224]

To put this thread in closing,though......will the current new generation of tradesman know how to torch down the line, or will the -new defacto- be press as the standard with all the dog-chewed up lines as the new norm when you walk into a boiler room

I was watching this youtube video - gent likes to use the press tool. I saw one repair on a coupler, but the fitting he used at the end of the day was not a proper die-electric break. Or this same youtube plumber, showing a buried copper repair, but he used hard copper to repair the break.

Will the mentality be without further knowledge, if you can press it and it don't leak, good enough...

I understand the value of it, for situations where lines are dripping and one can knock out a repair....but I guess call me a dinosaur. I still want soldered/threaded connections on the pipework. And no solvent/glue for me. I'll take no-hub anyday

I watched one video where the "plumber" repaired a leaking galvanized steel line with a stainless steel press fitting.

This is one instance where a press type tool would be invaluable. Difficult access, no soldering anywhere in an old home, no worries about those drips that don't stop.

However, the fitting used is NOT APPROVED for the manner in which it was used. I researched this particular application because it would have made a job much easier, and I found that no one makes a press fitting to go from galvanized pipe to copper.

This person used a stainless steel press fitting intended to join stainless steel pipe together. No dielectric properties, not approved to press onto galvanized pipe.

Yes, there are press dielectric unions, but the galvanized end is threaded and the press end is copper.

I wanted to cut the galvanized pipe in a good location, and simply press on a starting point for copper pipe without chasing it back to a threaded joint. Nope- at least not in an approved manner.

I am guessing that the possible variability of the galvanized coating on the pipe exterior is the problem.

The average homeowner isn't going to buy one of these tools.

However, it further opens the door for so-called professionals to do stuff wrong.

One interesting side benefit of the press fittings is that it forces you to use long radius fittings. Another is that the fittings are thicker copper. Either of these is more good than bad.

Unfortunately, there is no way around the significant investment in tooling and fittings to have a decent inventory of "emergency fittings" to do a repair job. In my area, only Menards stocks press fittings in a limited selection (besides a plumbing or some HVAC supply houses).

 

[fitter30]

I had a Whole House Filter added to my Shop for the Water Jet. The Plumber used the Crimps. When I saw it I cringed. Had I known I would have told him to just leave the Tank there and I would do it.

It bothered me so much that when I went to add the Water Softener I cut all of his work out and redid it.

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Nice piping job!

 

[PatJ800]

I work in healthcare maintenance. Using flame in healthcare is a major PITA. Our shop as well as our contractors have used propress for water for many years and I've yet to see any issues. We've built new construction with propress for domestic water and no issues to my knowledge. Propress fittings are cheap and I wouldn't hesitate to use personally on my own home. Talking to some of the contractors in town, all the new schools under construction are 100% propress both domestic and hydronic. New construction doesn't have to worry as much about hot work, they are just doing it because it is easier and cheaper and just as good.

I've seen dozens of failures of correctly sweated copper joints over the years, almost always on HWC lines. Never a propress failure (so far.)

For refrigeration, we've used Parker Zoomlock basically since they came out. I've yet to see any failures regardless of refrigerant or situation from a small ice machine to a large walk-in to a massive data center liebert. The only issue is they don't have sizes small enough for some TXV, so we still need to braze those, a PITA in a hospital. Zoomlock fittings are very expensive so personally I would braze at my house. But again it is a PITA to use a flame in a hospital so zoomlock wins.

Our shop has never used megalock but we have quite a bit of it on site installed by contractors on LP steam. No failures so far, and this is on steam. In house we still thread or weld black iron for steam, but nothing against megalock. I wouldn't put them on a blowdown line or something subject to severe mechanical/thermal shock.

Med gas still has to be brazed 100%, no way around it. Even the suction side of a med air compressor needs to be brazed.

People concerned about the o-ring need to think about vic fittings. We have vic 50 years old on AFSS, LP condensate, CHW, and hydronic with no issues. Vic fittings have way way way more rubber in them than any pro press. The gasket/o ring is not an issue.

Crimp fittings are here to stay and they are at least as good as whatever they replace in my opinion.

 

[mobiledynamics]

For the plumbers on this thread or those in the know, what's the story with Low Lead valves and such....

Sitting here coming up with a laundry list for some upcoming spring projects. I know all lines feeding potable needs to be LL. Just thinking outloud I suppose. What about the fixture itself. Or however many miles the water is underground down to the property...

 

[danski0224]

Anything available today, new or current stock, should be low lead by now.

The new regs went into effect years ago.

I'm sure that the municipality is exempt from compliance though They certainly aren't tearing up all kinds of infrastructure unless it is broken and needs to be replaced.

 

[mobiledynamics]

Thanks Dan. I just googled one brand I would normally get - I guess you were right. Right there in the description *inner water ways - lead and nickel free*

In my stash of ball valves, some of my Apollos are white label, which I know are LL. some of them has the casting of LL somewhere on the body with yellow handles....Some others....I think are not compliant....

 

[Jim greengo]

For the plumbers on this thread or those in the know, what's the story with Low Lead valves and such....

Sitting here coming up with a laundry list for some upcoming spring projects. I know all lines feeding potable needs to be LL. Just thinking outloud I suppose. What about the fixture itself. Or however many miles the water is underground down to the property...

The lead free ball valves seem to take more heat to sweat them on.

 

[danski0224]

Thanks Dan. I just googled one brand I would normally get - I guess you were right. Right there in the description *inner water ways - lead and nickel free*

In my stash of ball valves, some of my Apollos are white label, which I know are LL. some of them has the casting of LL somewhere on the body with yellow handles....Some others....I think are not compliant....

Yes, the part should be stamped LF or it is part of the casting.

The issue is standing water in the distribution system. If the water is flushed for a little bit before use, that takes care of the problem.

I have been in many houses that have a lead pipe water main to the meter.

Whether or not you want to use old stock potable water fittings on your own system....

 

[mobiledynamics]

The lead free ball valves seem to take more heat to sweat them on.

I only use 3 types for most of my projects, Apollo for isolation, Dahl for shut off to fixtures/icemakers/laundry AND depending if it's a exposed setup, I generally opt to use IPS/Kohler/For Aesthetic purposes. All of these are - domestic made- as I am mindful about what's in the water....

Have never really thought about the Safe Water Drinking Act, as a whole, cause in my mind....there's a whole lotta things the water is passing through before it hits the -last mile-, aka, the house

Have not noticed that much of a difference in process sweating the LL ones (whether it be the bronze or brass ones), but I don't do this daily, so maybe you guys have a better benchmark that it took 2 extra more minutes, etc....

 

[4 FN 27]

Nice piping job!

Thank you!!!

I love plumbing...

Where Water Meets Air in a Tight Space:

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[mobiledynamics]

4 FN27....the top drawer pic of the cutoffs....

Man, I used to throw away that stuff like the short stubs and stuff out like it was nothing. Now as I get older and ahem, wiser,I keep them too ;-)

 

[bonneyman]

Flex ductwork has plenty of drawbacks over rigid.

Oh, I agree. But the cost reductions are the deciding factor for a majority of jobs, especially residential. I can't tell you how many jobs I've been to with airflow problems because of the flex systems, but nobody wanted to listen.
Oh well, my house is comfortable.

 

[Jim greengo]

Oh, I agree. But the cost reductions are the deciding factor for a majority of jobs, especially residential. I can't tell you how many jobs I've been to with airflow problems because of the flex systems, but nobody wanted to listen.
Oh well, my house is comfortable.

Exactly.
Theres a reason I havent set foot on a residential new construction job in 15 years.

 

[mobiledynamics]

I have to scroll back a few threads....am I reading this right for main runs on the hvac system ?

I mean I can see this for bathroom exhaust fans for one offs, but complete systems in flex ?

 

[mobiledynamics]

OT: Love sharkbites for stub up work. I cap the stub ups....pressurize system....can leave it one, until the day I need to install fixtures.


? While looking into the fittings for copper press. Did the Shark Bite Patent run out. Seems like almost every plumbing brand seems to offer their -spin- on a sharkbite esque fitting. Is is it still sharkbite but -licensed- I don't use SB except for endcaps so I'm not keen on what's going in the the industry

 

[4 FN 27]

4 FN27....the top drawer pic of the cutoffs....

Man, I used to throw away that stuff like the short stubs and stuff out like it was nothing. Now as I get older and ahem, wiser,I keep them too ;-)

I keep anything over 2 inches.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

It's like the debate decades ago when duct systems went from mostly sheet metal ducting to flex duct. Anybody could be trained in a day to install flex, and it allowed all sorts of crazy architecture. The trained metalman got squeezed out - nowadays most all new residential construction is flex. Airflow is horrible, but it's cheaper, so it flies.

Flex ductwork has plenty of drawbacks over rigid.

I have to scroll back a few threads....am I reading this right for main runs on the hvac system ?

I mean I can see this for bathroom exhaust fans for one offs, but complete systems in flex ?

There is a difference between a flexible air "duct" and a flexible "connector". A "listed flexible air duct" is rectangular and is not limited in length, but a "listed flexible connector" is round and is limited to 14'. Anyone who has runs of any type of round flex over 20' is considered a hack around here regardless. An "octopus" is a sure indication of a cheesy install job.







Tommy

 

[mobiledynamics]

Started a new thread in the OT forum so I'm yakkking about plumbing and not HVAC. It's about lead in water...POV ?

 

[mobiledynamics]

plumbs/mechnical pros. Hemmed and hawed at the M12/M18 presser. Don't ever see myself using this for gas. Went with the M12 and the Ridgid Compact Jaws. Hoping I made the right call over the 2 platform sizes....

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Flex connector sq. usually finishes about 7" lg
Flex connector round

they both come off a roll.

Flex duct in commercial and industrial work around here is max. 5'-0"

 

[metlmunchr]

Flex connector sq. usually finishes about 7" lg

Surprising how few residential installations use flexible canvas connectors at the air handler. They'll get rid of more mechanical noise transmitted thru the structure of a house by an HVAC system than any other device you could use yet almost no residential contractors use them.

 

[danski0224]

Surprising how few residential installations use flexible canvas connectors at the air handler.

It costs money.

 

[danski0224]

I mean I can see this for bathroom exhaust fans for one offs, but complete systems in flex ?

I worked in a $2.9 million dollar spec home way back in the late 90's.

The only sheet metal was the furnaces and the plenum attached to them.

The furnaces were jammed into a corner of the huge attic, and the plenum was as short as possible and tapered to match the roofline to get them even tighter into the corner. This is a continuing problem with custom builders that will not give up a reasonable space for equipment access and servicing, much less installation.

There was over 2000 feet of flex in various sizes delivered to that job.

Flex went to a ductboard Y branch, which then may have gone to another ductboard Y branch, which then went to the register.

I don't know if it actually worked, and I don't see how it could have.

 

[frankush]

As long as there are handymen that want to do it themselves, there will be a need for trained journeyman. Most of those in the trades are not craftsman, but installers. I was informed of this many years ago and believe it to be true.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I worked in a $2.9 million dollar spec home way back in the late 90's.

The only sheet metal was the furnaces and the plenum attached to them.

There was over 2000 feet of flex in various sizes delivered to that job.

Flex went to a ductboard Y branch, which then may have gone to another ductboard Y branch, which then went to the register.

I don't know if it actually worked, and I don't see how it could have.

It shouldn't have passed inspection, either.

Tommy

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Flex connector sq. usually finishes about 7" lg
Flex connector round

they both come off a roll.

Flex duct in commercial and industrial work around here is max. 5'-0"

Those are flexible connectors for sheet metal duct, they're not the same thing as the flex duct or flex connector I'm talking about.

Surprising how few residential installations use flexible canvas connectors at the air handler. They'll get rid of more mechanical noise transmitted thru the structure of a house by an HVAC system than any other device you could use yet almost no residential contractors use them.

It costs money.

There's no real need for flexible sheet metal duct connectors in residential systems anymore. They don't have as much vibration as they used to and nowhere near as much as commercial/industrial equipment.

Tommy

 

[danski0224]

It shouldn't have passed inspection, either.

Tommy

At the time, there were essentially no restrictions on flex duct length in residential applications where the house was located.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Those are flexible connectors for sheet metal duct, they're not the same thing as the flex duct or flex connector I'm talking about.

I know there not flex duct, there flex connectors for sq/rd duct.
what kind of flex connector are you talking about?

 

[Jim greengo]

It costs money.

And looks like ****!

 

[fitter30]

Flex duct doesn't save money it costs money. Might be cheap to install but will cost you for as long it's in use. Restrictions, added length from sloppy install out of site out of mind. Flex hung in attics by straps after a few years can cut air flow when it collapses. Moving air
takes energy the more static pressure a fan has to over come the more horsepower it takes.

 

[danski0224]

Flex duct doesn't save money it costs money. Might be cheap to install but will cost you for as long it's in use. Restrictions, added length from sloppy install out of site out of mind. Flex hung in attics by straps after a few years can cut air flow when it collapses. Moving air
takes energy the more static pressure a fan has to over come the more horsepower it takes.

Ah, but the buider doesn't care about much of anything but short term profit.

Building deficiencies are the homeowners problem.

Then, as codes are strengthened to address the shortcuts, the builders complain about the added costs...

 

[Jim greengo]

There is a difference between a flexible air "duct" and a flexible "connector". A "listed flexible air duct" is rectangular and is not limited in length, but a "listed flexible connector" is round and is limited to 14'. Anyone who has runs of any type of round flex over 20' is considered a hack around here regardless. An "octopus" is a sure indication of a cheesy install job.







Tommy

Exactly,problem is everybody wants cheap and fast.
I dont do cheap,and I'm too old to do anything fast anymore.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

At the time, there were essentially no restrictions on flex duct length in residential applications where the house was located.

The UMC has limited flex connectors to 14' since before I was an apprentice in the 80's.

Tommy

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Those are flexible connectors for sheet metal duct, they're not the same thing as the flex duct or flex connector I'm talking about.

I know there not flex duct, there flex connectors for sq/rd duct.
what kind of flex connector are you talking about?

The round stuff in the pictures I posted. Even though everyone calls that "flex duct", it's not duct. It's a flex connector. It's only allowed to connect a duct and a diffuser. The items you posted are technically fabric expansion joints.

Tommy

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Must be a NJ thing, around here in the Detroit area we always called it flex duct.
and for the square metal ducts they were called flex connectors.

In over 50 years of sheet metal work I have never heard them called fabric expansion joints, if I was to send a cut sheet into the shop foreman and told him I needed a 24 x 10 fabric expansion joint it surely would have prompted a call with "what the hell is that".
I believe the Michigan mech. code book does list the max. use of flex duct at 14' but all commercial work that was "plan and spec" was never more than 5' .........