Garage addition before the snow?

[jmiller_2308]

I have been going through delay after delay with the GC I'm trying to use to build my garage addition and I am now wondering whether it is even feasible to get it shelled before the snow flies.

Keeping it simple, think of the garage as a 25x28 by 11' high addition to an existing garage. It is a bit more complicated but I think focusing on that size makes the question easier to ask.

Some additional info:

• It is an addition that shares one wall.
• The roof is higher than the existing so there is an over-roofing component that ties them together.
• The roof is a hip and the overoof simply extends the existing roof into the new hip.
• roof is being built with trusses.
• Attached to the house so there are footings and block work.
• The property is fairly flat so excavation is fairly minimal beyond digging for footings.
• Outside siding is stucco with some detail work.
• One 8x16 garage door in front, 1 new man door into existing garage, 1 reused garage door at rear of the building, 3 windows and a thru wall a/c hole.
• Soffits are rough cedar and will need staining hopefully before it is too cold.

I'm looking for the GC to get the thing buttoned up on the outside before the snow flies which around here could come as early as the end of October but usually starts in November. (Shakopee, MN - south of Minneapolis).

He would do the concrete inside but I'd do all remaining insulation, walls, electric, heat, cool, etc. I also would be responsible for outside driveway extension but if he takes too long the tar plants will shut down before that can be done this year.

Finally onto the time frame. I harassed him for final numbers and schedules last Friday and he told me he was just finishing up with the truss people and that I should get something this week. I told him how anxious I was to have this complete before the snow flies and he said he thought the excavation would start early September and that that would leave plenty of time to complete before October. Is this for real

I made the following guestimates and I just don't see it happening in his timeframe so hopefully somebody can let me know if I'm close or if this guy might actually know a thing or two that I don't.

Assume starting Sept 1.

1. excavation including digging for footings - 2 days
2. footings - need to be poured, hard before working on them, and inspected - 5 days
3. block work - needs to be completed after footings and set before framing can begin - 5 days
4. framing including sheathing the roof - 10 days
5. roofing - 2 days
6. cement floor - 1 day
7. garage doors and finish work - 2 days
8. stucco scratch coat - needs to cure before next - 5 days
9. stucco brown coat - needs to cure before next - 5 days
10. stucco finish coat - 1 day
11. final grade 1 day
12. site clean up (dumpster, etc) - 1 day

I think a lot of the numbers above are very optimistic, especially considering that inspections happen at whatever rate they choose. Even with these optimistic guesses this still brings me to the middle of October so if my guess are wrong, he starts later than 9/1, inspections slow us down, etc. it really seems to me that this thing can't possibly be completed until November at least, and that is prime snow time.

Any opinions from you folks as to whether my GC might actually get it done before the snow?

 

[Gerald O]

Depending on the size of the crew and subcontractors, I think several of your task time estimates are excessive unles you are expecting a lot of idle days for weather, etc.

 

[jmiller_2308]

Depending on the size of the crew and subcontractors, I think several of your task time estimates are excessive unles you are expecting a lot of idle days for weather, etc.

Well that is good to know.

Weather in MN this year has been horrific and caused many delays all over the place. It may these weather issues that have caused my GC to keep pushing me off but it sure would be nice if he communicated that to me. Hopefully our bad weather is coming to an end, my estimates are off, and I'll still get my garage addition for the winter

 

[brewchief]

How much block? If just a couple rows it should only take a day.

I would be surprised if they wait 5 days after pouring footings to start laying block.

10 days is a long time to frame a garage, walls should be up on day one, set trusses and sheet roof on day two, maybe an extra day or two depending on how much trouble to tie into existing, decent crew done in a week max.

Roof should be one day.

Don't forget some trades should be overlapping, no reason concrete can't be poured while stucco guys are working, etc.

 

[bczygan]

One sure way to get a job done on time and under budget, is to make it financially beneficial for the contractor.

This is the carrot method.

The other half of it is the stick.

Non performance costs the contractor.

The only way to do either of these things is to have it in the contract.

The only way to enforce it is if the contractor has some money in the deal. A cash bond is a good method.

Otherwise, you are completely at his mercy, and his needs will always come first.

And your schedule is way short.

We always figured 6 months for a structure. Yours will be less without inside finishes, but I would still figure 3 months plus.

The lack of communication is a portent of the future.

Do you have a written contract?

Good luck.

 

[7th Kahuna]

I'm not sure what your delays have been, but it sounds like this may not be the right contractor for the job. <b>bczygan</b> has the right idea, you already don't feel secure about it getting done.

I have worked for several contractors over the years who were confident enough in themselves and their teams to sign contracts with performance guarantees and financial penalties. Of course they only signed them if there was a potential reward as well as the potential loss. Carrot and Stick. If we beat the scheduled contract date, we benefited. I can't remember ever missing a date that we weren't delayed by weather or design changes, we beat more than a few. Not that we made it a point to miss contract dates anyhow. Basically, a performance guarantee doesn't make a contractor preform, but it does eliminate the ones who don't have the resources and or the confidence to make it happen.

 

[jmiller_2308]

three quick follow ups:

1) There would be 5 courses of block.

2) The footing and block duration was largely about about allowing the concrete to cure long enough to be worked on. If they can build block on top of footings that have been poured the day before or frame on top of block that was laid the day before that would really help the schedule. However, the other factor built into my duration was that I suspect it may take at least a few days to call for and get inspections done. Don't they have to inspect the footings before and after pouring?

3) This guy comes very well recommend but with the caveat that he does take a long time to get things done. I believe the weather has been part of the factor in his slow downs but his drafter is also incredibly slow and he easily added at least 2 months to the process.

The other issue with my GC is that he has a full time job running a lumber yard. The guy is very busy and he does small GC stuff simply because he is well connected with all the subs as well as gets a great deal on building materials. This guy is easily $10,000 less than the others I've talked with. I realize he won't be as involved or as prompt as other GCs but the reality is that $10,000 is a lot of money. Without his reduced cost I wouldn't build the addition.

 

[Dan M]

I built a detached 32x36 last year. 2x6 framed, scissor trusses, poured footing, 2 courses of blocked on 3 sides, 4th side is 5 courses dug into the side of a hill. Here was my timing:

Week 1 (Excavate and all concrete/block):
Monday: 2-man excavator crew worked 10 hours, dug out the hillside and prepped the site
Tuesday: Dug footing in AM. Inspector came at noon, measured the depth, and we poured same day
Wed-Thursday: Blocks done and floor prepped/compacted
Friday: Pour floor

Week 2:
Monday: All walls framed and laying on ground
Tues: Lift walls. Install all trusses (sticks all done)
Wed-Friday: man-doors, windows, roof, vinyl siding on three walls

Week 3:
Mon-Tues: Brick front face
Wed: Install 16x9 and 10x9 garage doors

So mine was complete from shovel to sealed in about 13 working days. BUT: Due to work crew scheduling, Week 1 and Week 2 were a month apart. So I had a few furious work weeks with a deadband in the middle where I just had a slab and block courses surrounded by a giant pile of building supplies.

So I would say the workload to seal before snow isn't a problem as long as the crew is constantly at your site. Pro crews bang this stuff out at an amazing rate, but schedules get filled and double-triple-booked in the fall due to everyone trying to finish before winter. Hope this helps, good luck.

Dan

 

[Dan M]

I didn't mention the paperwork side:

My permit filing went smoothly, but it was still about 10 days from when I first went to file before it was approved and ready to go.

My inspector is available by cell phone and tries to prioritize critical inspections, so my concrete guy talked to him directly and coordinated the inspection right when the footing was dug so he could pour the same day. Same thing with the brick inspection.

You should get the inspection schedule when you file the permit.

Lumber yard needed 4 weeks to deliver all materials to the site, mainly due to lead time on the trusses. Most raw materials were within a week from ordering.

-Dan

 

[NUTTSGT]

It's good that you have the inspector on your cell phone and hopefully he works with you. I can see the stucco being the longest lasting part of the construction other than the wait to get the trusses built.

The block work I can't see taking more than two days, depending on the weather or getting their gear at the site. I know most of them will bring their own water but do you have water access for them to use ? Plan ahead for that issue and it will make progress go faster.

Framing will probably take half of your time allotted and the roof should be done in a day, maybe a few hours the next day. I doubt the doors will take more than a day for your contractor, he might even have a O/H door company come in and do them.


If he starts Sept 1, I see no reason (unless there is some unforseen issues) they won't have it closed up in about 2 weeks, finished by Oct 1.

 

[jmiller_2308]

Thanks for all the feedback. It sounds like it is doable if things get scheduled right.

I do remain concerned about schedules. I was on the hook to get some trees removed and stumps ground and had that lined up for the spring until it fell through due to GC delays. I contacted them again last week to see if they could get out in August and unless things open in their schedule the earliest they can get here would be the beginning of Sept - which is of course when the excavation might start. I'm scrambling to find a new tree guy now

I'm hopeful the GC has already got my build on the subs radar and hopefully schedule or I fear there could be some significant delays due to subs being overbooked. We have a "Parade of Homes" tour that starts Sept. 6 and that usually eats most subs so I might get lucky that they should be coming off that rush and ready to work on my addition in September.

 

[bczygan]

Sounds like there is every possibility that it will be a slow job.

That means you need to get started ASAP.

Every day you wait is a lost day.

Anything YOU can do to expedite, will help.

Close contact and coordination with the GC can help.

You both need to be in each others shirt pockets all the time.

Site cleanup is a place you can help.

You want a early a completion as possible.

It won't be fun working on the interior in the winter.

What can be done today to get things going?

Drawings? Permits? Site prep? Material pre-orders? Scheduling subs?

How about doing the excavation and site prep including the compacted pad, ready for inspection and concrete? Then preparing for the driveway by excavating and installing the base?

You could probably get away with doing all this before permits, so apply for permits today and get going.

 

[justin1795]

I planned my garage all winter had contractors out when there was still snow on the ground. ground work just got finished. hoping a pole go in the ground the next few weeks. same story on my pool. biggest problem I have is dealing with the contactors. I try to schedule things on my days off but then they never show. a simple wont be there today would have been good enough. ground work guy still hasent even sent a bill and the pool guy has about a hr of work left to collect payment.