Garage Bathroom Woes

[lukel99]

I built a 30x32 detached steel building in my back yard. It's got r-10 insulation and a mini split, which is good enough for me for use year round in central VA. I'm working on getting my last steps finished, and I'm running into a huge problem.

My architect forgot to put the bathroom on the plans before they got submitted to the county. I already roughed in plumbing (which they didn't have any problem giving me a permit for) to the garage for a half bathroom, and framed out partition walls for it. Framing inspector said I'd have to add the partition walls to the plans and resubmit to the county.

Here's where I'm running into my issues. The county says that the bathroom is a habitable space and is subject to IRC 2015 codes. This means the planning office wants a sleeper floor (XPS foam) and insulated walls. They're requiring R-15 in the walls, and R-38 in the ceiling. I framed it with 2x4 walls and 2x6 ceiling joists, which means I basically have to tear the whole thing down and re-frame it to pass planning. I think I could get away with XPS foam in the walls (3.5 inches should be R-17.5) but the whole ceiling would have to be replaced.

Anyone else run into this? Is there no exception that's less strict for a bathroom in a garage?

 

[dcg9381]

A quick google search indicates that your county may be wrong about "habitable space" - which makes the whole thing go away if you can show that to them. In my experience the city/county is not very familiar with shop/barndo construction requirements:

CHAPTER 2 DEFINITIONS - 2015 INTERNATIONAL RESIDENTIAL CODE (IRC)

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.

codes.iccsafe.org

"Habitable space means a space in a building for living, sleeping, eating or cooking. Bathrooms, toilet rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar areas are not considered habitable spaces"

 

[ybnormal]

yeah, but you know as well as I do dcg9381 that youre' gonna get the one idiot at county and his boss who will refuse the proper interpretation and still insist on their way (I've dealt with Austin permit/planning). OP will have to make sure he gets proper interpretation from either his architect, who has hopefully done this before, or someone else who has done it.

did the architect forget to include, or was he not paid to draw up with plumbing in the original quote?

 

[dcg9381]

yeah, but you know as well as I do dcg9381 that youre' gonna get the one idiot at county and his boss who will refuse the proper interpretation and still insist on their way (I've dealt with Austin permit/planning).

I get what you're saying. I've dealt with egos before - and you have to tread carefully.

I've dealt with this a lot and sometimes the county/city/inspector is simply flat wrong. Don't rub their nose in it and be as nice as possible. Ask for a written rejection reason, then escalate the issue citing IRC building code (make sure the year matches the municipality). There is no "interpretation" here unless the local jurisdiction has something in muni code that contradicts IRC... It's worth investigating as they certainly appear to be wrong. It's literally laid out in IRC as not habitable space.

How I'd handle it here:

• Ask for the rejection in writing (you want them to write down why they aren't passing it, not start sniffing around for other stuff)
• Bring IRC 2015 (or whatever IRC applies there) to the inspector's boss, asking for "reconsideration". Do it politely and quietly.
• If they still say "no" - have them cite the applicable code that applies here. (There's a possibility that a local code is on top of IRC).
• If the boss won't cite why this isn't OK and won't consider what IRC says plainly, you go to the city manager. From there, you go to the city counsel - again, play "good neighbor" - you're compliant and don't want to take this further (cities don't like lawsuits they'll lose)
• If still go no, see an attorney. They can't just make up rules.

 

[65ranchero]

your county may be wrong about "habitable space"

That is because the inspector has been banished to his own garage by his wife and he's miserable.

 

[dcg9381]

That is because the inspector has been banished to his own garage by his wife and he's miserable.

Many of us would be quite content being banished to our garages, at least from what I've seen of garages around here.
OP: Wishing you luck that this is a simple "education" issue dealing with an inspector that isn't used to inspecting non-residential.

 

[ybnormal]

luke, are you in the county or in the city? also, did you submit your plans electronically or in person printed out on paper with a paper form application?
as noted above, I dealt with it a few years ago in Austin and they royally screwed it up on both ends.

 

[Old Fart]

SInce your architect screwed up, let him explain and convince the county they are wrong.

 

[lukel99]

I fired the architect because of another unrelated issue, so unfortunately putting it back on him isn't an option.

I don't think they're being malicious at the county, and for the most part I've had good luck with them in the past. I just want to go back to them with my interpretation of the code with references.

So I feel like it's clear that the garage isn't habitable space. I feel like they'll still insist it needs its own thermal envelope. Can anyone point me to a code section that specifies that a bathroom in a workshop would not need to be in this thermal envelope?

Thanks for all the comments, hopefully I can get this sorted and be on my way.

 

[lukel99]

luke, are you in the county or in the city? also, did you submit your plans electronically or in person printed out on paper with a paper form application?
as noted above, I dealt with it a few years ago in Austin and they royally screwed it up on both ends.

I am in Henrico county in VA. I submitted via paper copies. They've since moved to an all electronic system, but this one is in the "legacy system" so I have to submit via hard copies at the county administration building.

 

[ycgoat]

Thanks for posting the problem here. My new shop is a bit west just past Blackstone, and I am doing the same thing here. Hopefully they a re a bit more laxed here though.

 

[lukel99]

Hopefully you should be good. I don't think the building guys are intentionally harsh, but they definitely don't give a damn about your timelines. Are you building it yourself or working with a contractor? This is the first building I've built and it's definitely been a learning curve.

 

[ycgoat]

I had a steel building shell erected, and am doing everything else myself. I started with raw land and thought I had a handle on things. I was in construction for a long time, but purchasing and planning what and where to build was a challenge, and I did not have a master plan. The other challenge is I do not know any trades men there; all my people are 2+ hours away. Trying to get contractors out for a drain field now.

 

[lukel99]

Yeah, finding trades has been difficult for me too. Luckily I can handle electrical myself, but any under-slab plumbing I left to a professional. Good luck with your build!

 

[ycgoat]

Yeah, finding trades has been difficult for me too. Luckily I can handle electrical myself, but any under-slab plumbing I left to a professional. Good luck with your build!

LOL I am a sparky too

 

[lukel99]

I'm just an electrical/computer engineer but I've managed the meter base/ground rods, panel install, and branch circuits. Got passed first try on those inspections, luckily. Put in a 50A 240V outlet for L2 EV charging in the future, and planned ahead for the lift, a 240v welder, and a 240v table saw.

 

[tjpavlov]

Have you considered adding foam board above the ceiling?

 

[ybnormal]

I am in Henrico county in VA. I submitted via paper copies. They've since moved to an all electronic system, but this one is in the "legacy system" so I have to submit via hard copies at the county administration building.

I asked because the way they screwed up mine was the old paper system had New, Remodel, or Rebuild. The online system only had New or Remodel/Rebuild. Remodel means sheetrock tear-out, rebuild does not. In my case the distinction was important because of wall penetrations. We got hit by lightning and had an attic fire. We had no wall penetrations until the firefighter put his boot thru from the attic. And because of that they insisted we HAD to put all new networked fire alarms in. Plus, they only give you so many inspections and would never show up when we were there and waiting for them. All in all, just a major PITA dealing with the city permitting here.

good luck with yours!

 

[driftpin]

I get what you're saying. I've dealt with egos before - and you have to tread carefully.

I've dealt with this a lot and sometimes the county/city/inspector is simply flat wrong. Don't rub their nose in it and be as nice as possible. Ask for a written rejection reason, then escalate the issue citing IRC building code (make sure the year matches the municipality). There is no "interpretation" here unless the local jurisdiction has something in muni code that contradicts IRC... It's worth investigating as they certainly appear to be wrong. It's literally laid out in IRC as not habitable space.

How I'd handle it here:

• Ask for the rejection in writing (you want them to write down why they aren't passing it, not start sniffing around for other stuff)
• Bring IRC 2015 (or whatever IRC applies there) to the inspector's boss, asking for "reconsideration". Do it politely and quietly.
• If they still say "no" - have them cite the applicable code that applies here. (There's a possibility that a local code is on top of IRC).
• If the boss won't cite why this isn't OK and won't consider what IRC says plainly, you go to the city manager. From there, you go to the city counsel - again, play "good neighbor" - you're compliant and don't want to take this further (cities don't like lawsuits they'll lose)
• If still go no, see an attorney. They can't just make up rules.

I think this is generally good advice but there are some points I'd take issue with.

The first three bullets are OK, but you can find out some of this yourself before going in. For instance, look at whatever code was in-effect when you submitted. That is, they may have adopted another year's code subsequently, but you are bound to whatever the code was, when you submitted. If they are using a later code for their basis, it could be the wrong code.

If as suggested, you want to appeal the review, you first deal with the person doing the review. The next step would be to the chief inspector/plans reviewer in that discipline, i.e., structural, electrical, plumbing, or mechanical. After that you would go to the chief building official, not the city manager. The city "counsel" is the city attorney. I suspect this is a typo by the poster. He was probably referring to the city council. Whatever the elected municipal body calls itself, I doubt they would become involved in this. The last bullet is "see an attorney." I suggest your path after (and probably before) you go to the chief building official, is to contact another architect or P.E. who is well-known to the jurisdiction development services staff. Pay for the consultation, and take their advice. Allow them to 'press the point' on your behalf. I expect you will have better results following this path.

I am retired, I was a life safety inspector, planning and zoning employee as a planner, and a state licensed plans examiner in FL.

 

[LOW1]

First be aware of any time limits for bringing appeals and the correct process for doing so. You will need to comply with these

Second review the city’s building code and see if the city has adopted any local variations to the building code

then have a polite discussion with your inspector

 

[aardquark]

You might want to consider that having a well insulated bathroom is a good idea regardless of what the building dept says, because of the presence of water lines and the possibility of freezing, if that is a possibility at your location.

 

[4x4Pete]

They want you to pay for a variance.

 

[lukel99]

I'm leaning towards just biting the bullet and insulating, even if that means having to re-frame the ceiling. My biggest concern is what aardquark said, but the whole building envelope is insulated with R-10, and I am planning on leaving the heat at 50 degrees or so when I'm not working out there. But, our power grid is crappy, and you never know when it will go out during an ice storm.

 

[alwaysFlOoReD]

What about spray foam? Maybe the cost will be offset by not reframing....

 

[ybnormal]

our power grid is crappy, and you never know when it will go out during an ice storm.

I thought only Texas had this problem because they know it all here!

 

[lukel99]

What about spray foam? Maybe the cost will be offset by not reframing....

Thought about it, but it's like 4x5 feet. Not more than a few boards needed

 

[lukel99]

I thought only Texas had this problem because they know it all here!

It's unfortunately just my neighborhood. The neighborhoods on either side of us are lit up every time we go out.

 

[ycgoat]

Thought about it, but it's like 4x5 feet. Not more than a few boards needed

you can get a DIY spray foam kit for up to about 600Sq.ft. at 1" thick

 

[dzahm]

crazy thought- but if its interior space- can you finish the bldg- get the inspectors done and gone- Then install the bathroom? I get the permit thing esp when its a bldg or something visible- but how would they know if you did a bathroom 6 mos after the thing was signed off on?

 

[mike93lx]

crazy thought- but if its interior space- can you finish the bldg- get the inspectors done and gone- Then install the bathroom? I get the permit thing esp when its a bldg or something visible- but how would they know if you did a bathroom 6 mos after the thing was signed off on?

I would be surprised if they let it go with rough in and framing already in place, plus he has already established he wants a bathroom.

I also live in Henrico County, so I am curious to follow along on your experience

 

[dcg9381]

They want you to pay for a variance.

If they want you to seek a variance, they need to cite the applicable code that requires this type of insulation be in what is defined as non-habitable space per IRC.

So I feel like it's clear that the garage isn't habitable space. I feel like they'll still insist it needs its own thermal envelope. Can anyone point me to a code section that specifies that a bathroom in a workshop would not need to be in this thermal envelope?

They told you it was "habitable space". I put a reference to IRC that shows where that indication is wrong. It'd be an "easy" mistake to make.

They need to cite what you're in violation of. My guess is they are confused about IRC or are referring to muni-code which is based on "habitable space" per IRC.

In the "grand scheme" of things, any bath in VA probably needs insulation (but that's a different discussion).

 

[ycgoat]

I know someone posted a definition of Habitable Space, but I had an electronic copy of the 2006 vs.

 

[Don R]

I met too many inspectors that led off with, "what I like to see is"
I went toe to toe with a State plumbing inspector once. He had already made the mistake with 2 or 3 other motels and they jackhammered up floors and did what he wanted. We waited a week and called his boss. We were correct, he had to write correction letters to us, the general contractor and the owner. I assumed he would be hard on us after that but he got nicer.

 

[ycgoat]

What I hear a lot is "that is not how most of the contractors do it", but I often error on the side of safety and longevity