garage burned down

[dablack]

Well, after doing the stain and sealer from Legacy and being almost finished with the build, the garage burned down. Took all my tools and my RV. It was going to be a house first, then be converted into a garage later. We are going to be rebuilding soon but wanted to know if anyone knows about resurfacing the slab. In some spots the slab looks brand new. In other spots the cream has popped off. I haven't cleared off the slab yet so I don't know fully what I'm dealing with.

Here is a terrible night shot of the stain and sealer.



We already had the windows and doors in but I can't find any pictures right now.



Here it is now.



The slab is monolithic with a 18" deep footer on the perimeter. If I poured another 4" on top, how would I tie that into the old slab. Would that even be a good idea? If the cream is popped off all over it, what would be the best course of action? The worst spot I have found so far was where about and an inch of the 4" slab popped off the top. This was in about a 3sqft area. There are many more spots were the slab just popped 1/4" off the cream.

thanks
Austin

 

[jfalcs]

Woah! What happened?

Sorry to hear that. Hope everyone is ok.

 

[dablack]

It was a lightning strike. I was mostly done with plumbing and about to start the electric. Then sheetrock and move in. The house wasn't grounded so the lightning started a fire. The property is 45 minutes from our old rent house and the sheriff's dept called. We thought it was a prank. Sad sad day. We are now living on the property in a trailer but we will rebuild. A bunch of guys from the forestryforum are coming to cut my lumber from my trees.

Now I just need to clean off the slab and make sure it is ok.

thanks
Austin

 

[AgFrost]

I'm sorry to hear this news. The pictures are heartbreakers. Is insurance any help in a situation like this? On the other hand, I you had any "I shouldda's" you can fix those now!

 

[fnieto]

Man, that *****.

 

[nolimits76]

Sounds like this is an insurance claim. If it were, I'd push to demo the existing concrete and start new again. Fire/extreme heat does weird thing to concrete.

By the way....the floor looked great! Not sure how you applied, but if you do re-pour, you can add color during the pour process and not have to manually apply later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_degradation

Thermal damage[edit]

Due to its low thermal conductivity, a layer of concrete is frequently used for fireproofing of steel structures. However, concrete itself may be damaged by fire. An example of this was the 1996 Chunnel fire, where the fire reduced the thickness of concrete in an undersea tunnel connecting France with England. For this reason, common fire testing standards, such as ASTM E119, do not permit fire testing of cementitious products unless the relative humidity inside the cementitious product is at or below 75%. Otherwise, concrete can be subject to significant spalling.

Up to about 300 °C, the concrete undergoes normal thermal expansion. Above that temperature, shrinkage occurs due to water loss; however, the aggregate continues expanding, which causes internal stresses. Up to about 500 °C, the major structural changes are carbonatation and coarsening of pores. At 573 °C, quartz undergoes rapid expansion due to phase transition, and at 900 °C calcite starts shrinking due to decomposition. At 450-550 °C the cement hydrate decomposes, yielding calcium oxide. Calcium carbonate decomposes at about 600 °C. Rehydration of the calcium oxide on cooling of the structure causes expansion, which can cause damage to material which withstood fire without falling apart. Concrete in buildings that experienced a fire and were left standing for several years shows extensive degree of carbonatation from carbon dioxide which is reabsorbed.

Concrete exposed to up to 100 °C is normally considered as healthy. The parts of a concrete structure that is exposed to temperatures above approximately 300 °C (dependent of water/cement ratio) will most likely get a pink color. Over approximately 600 °C the concrete will turn light grey, and over approximately 1000 °C it turns yellow-brown.[5] One rule of thumb is to consider all pink colored concrete as damaged that should be removed.
Fire will expose the concrete to gases and liquids that can be harmful to the concrete, among other salts and acids that occur when gases produced by a fire come into contact with water.

If concrete is exposed to very high temperatures very rapidly, explosive spalling of the concrete can result. In a very hot, very quick fire the water inside the concrete will boil before it evaporates. The steam inside the concrete exerts expansive pressure and can initiate and forcibly expel a spall.[6]

 

[LXCam]

If you plan on keeping the pad and its within your budget you can go to a self leveling epoxy coating, but it'll be pricy depending on the amount of material you need. Good luck bud, my heart goes out to ya

 

[dubber]

Very sorry to hear about what happened. Good luck with the rebuild it sounds like you have a positive outlook which will help tremendously with this process.

 

[CNGsaves]

Wow, that's tough to look at, as your new build was looking so great.

+1 to start with "clean slate" and jack hammer out the old pad and do it all over from scratch. Since the fire was so intense it burned it right down to slab, there definitely will be concrete damage.

Good luck with rebuild and keep the pics coming.

Where this located?? Are lightning strikes common??

Would be helpful to Update GJ Profile with State / City.

Friend has an older home in wooded area and it has several lightning rods on roof and giant cable connected to ground. Basically it's the entire ridge cap the full length of roof.

 

[Tarheelgarage]

Wow, that's tough to look at, as your new build was looking so great.

+1 to start with "clean slate" and jack hammer out the old pad and do it all over from scratch. Since the fire was so intense it burned it right down to slab, there definitely will be concrete damage.

Good luck with rebuild and keep the pics coming.

Where this located?? Are lightning strikes common??

Would be helpful to Update GJ Profile with State / City.

Friend has an older home in wooded area and it has several lightning rods on roof and giant cable connected to ground. Basically it's the entire ridge cap the full length of roof.[/QUOTE

Rusk, TX area

 

[liquidh8]

Man that is awful. after removal of the rubbish, I would echo what others have said. Fire can do some good damage to the concrete as the extreme heat, humidity, moisture ect. don't all go well together.

Good luck.

 

[KPSquared]

construction insurance or no?

Like was said. . . If you can, tear it All out and start over.

 

[1/2 Cup]

That's tough, our thoughts are with you.

 

[LegacyIndustrial]

Terrible news. Hopefully, everyone in the family is ok.

 

[Radio Ron w4ron]

WOW, that makes me sick. We had a small fire in my little workshop that's just
off my displayroom for my antique radio collection. Luckily we were home and I managed to get it put out. The fire chief told me I had about 30 seconds and I wouldn't
have been able to put it out with my fire extinguisher.
Nothing in the radio collection burned, but it got really smoked up.
The insurance company really did us good, the completely rebuilt my display room,
cleaned every single piece in my collection, over 2000 items. the total cost of the
cleanup was over $80k. But the next time renewal came up, they canceled us.
Nationwide was the company.

I'm glad no one got hurt in your fire and it was under construction so you weren't
living there yet.

Good luck on the rebuild.

 

[Higgins]

Ron,
How easy was it to find insurance after being dumped by Nationwide??

AL

 

[Jeff Ivers]

Really sorry for your loss. I hope others will chime in with more info on the slab issue. Around here (Oklahoma), it is common to build a shop on floating slab, Which makes me wonder if you can just pour another 4" slab on top of what you have. Why would that be any different than pouring on compacted dirt or gravel? Don't know where you are located or other factors that might come into play.

 

[nolimits76]

Really sorry for your loss. I hope others will chime in with more info on the slab issue. Around here (Oklahoma), it is common to build a shop on floating slab, Which makes me wonder if you can just pour another 4" slab on top of what you have. Why would that be any different than pouring on compacted dirt or gravel? Don't know where you are located or other factors that might come into play.

I'm from Oklahoma. Every slab I have seen poured has footings. So either I am not familiar with what you mean by "floating slab" or am misinterpreting you.

Either way, I don't like the option.

1) I would want my slab tied to a footing;

2) Depending on the thickness of the slabs, his entire elevation profile may change and require additional fill to level out the area properly.

 

[bluebolt]

Sorry to hear about the fire. Keep us updated.

 

[bczygan]

Been there, done that...did NOT have insurance.

 

[nolimits76]

Several of you have commented about insurance, like it's not covered. It got me thinking about it a little more. My company performs construction projects, but it's different because by contract (and choice) we carry insurance on EACH of our projects. I've never given much thought to constructing something at home. I just assumed it would be covered under homeowners insurance. But I can see why it may not be. Especially if the homeowner failed to alert the insurance company about said improvement until AFTER it was finished (typical I presume).

Anyone have any real experience?

 

[Jeff Ivers]

I'm from Oklahoma. Every slab I have seen poured has footings. So either I am not familiar with what you mean by "floating slab" or am misinterpreting you.

Either way, I don't like the option.

1) I would want my slab tied to a footing;

2) Depending on the thickness of the slabs, his entire elevation profile may change and require additional fill to level out the area properly.

I probably didn't word my post the best. Yes, by floating slab, I mean concrete poured with no footing. Pole barns are built with floating slabs all the time. I have seen garage/shops on floating slabs. In the OP case, he has a slab with footings and a new slab poured on top could be tied to it. The question is, how much damage is done to concrete by a fire - how deep does the damage go - can one drill into the damaged slab and insert anchors and pour new slab on top at less cost and with just as good (perhaps better?) results than ripping out and starting over? The point of my post was to encourage those with knowledge to weigh in to help the OP make a decision.

 

[KPSquared]

Several of you have commented about insurance, like it's not covered. It got me thinking about it a little more. My company performs construction projects, but it's different because by contract (and choice) we carry insurance on EACH of our projects. I've never given much thought to constructing something at home. I just assumed it would be covered under homeowners insurance. But I can see why it may not be. Especially if the homeowner failed to alert the insurance company about said improvement until AFTER it was finished (typical I presume).

Anyone have any real experience?

I called my insurance company the day I started building. They added a "construction insurance" rider to my home policy. Covers the building until completion.

I think most home policies will cover a construction project but it may depend on value of the project.

 

[j p smith]

Sorry about your fire. I am not sure I would pour over the slab, that doesn't fix any unseen damage to the slab. The Forestry forum along with Jeff & Tammy is another great group of people. Jeff Smith

 

[nolimits76]

The question is, how much damage is done to concrete by a fire - how deep does the damage go - can one drill into the damaged slab and insert anchors and pour new slab on top at less cost and with just as good (perhaps better?)

I agree, it's good to be armed with knowledge. My comment was not meant as an insult.

In regards to anchoring to the existing slab, you are correct he will need to drill and epoxy reinforcing into it if he choses to build on top and anchor it. The issue I would have is how the epoxy will react with the remaining concrete. It's a chemical reaction that holds the stuff in-place and the heat has altered the standard properties. I could be way over-thinking this, but if it were me and I was considering this option I would call Hilti and talk to them about it. That is who we use on our projects when tying into an existing project. They aren't always cheapest, but they know their **** and sell quality products.

Maybe my view is skewed because I'm in the business and could get this demolished and hauled off pretty cheaply; however, I still think there is value starting on a rock solid foundation and going up. Of course, if there is no insurance pay out to help with costs, it makes these decisions tougher.

Good luck to the OP whatever you decide.

I called my insurance company the day I started building. They added a "construction insurance" rider to my home policy. Covers the building until completion.

I think most home policies will cover a construction project but it may depend on value of the project.

Thanks for the clarification. I guess I need to read the fine print on my State Farm policy.

 

[bluebolt]

Maybe you could slightly relocate the new foundation, just clear the debris off that foundation off and use it for parking vehicles and put a carport on it. I am no expert on overheated concrete but I can tell you all about a bad foundation on a house. Mine has serious problems, no way way of knowing the builder took a lot of short cuts when you buy a pre-built brand new house.

 

[dablack]

Sorry I'm just now getting back. Internet at the house is hit or miss.

This "garage" build was the first building on the property. No way to get a "add on" insurance. I did call a couple of the big names when I started building and they wanted to know who the mortgage was through.....me!....and who the builder was.....me! After those two questions they told me they didn't have anything for me. Now that this has happened, I have talked to more people and insurance wouldn't have been a big deal if I would have talked to the right people. Obviously, on the rebuild I will have insurance.

So, with no insurance, I'm really trying to save the slab. I will decide if it is possible after I clear the slab. I'm just looking for options. If the damage is just on the surface, I'm not above filling in the low spots and doing ceramic tile. I have also thought about another 4" of slab on top of this one. Tie them together with rebar or something. I'm not sure how it would work.

Yes, I'm in the Rusk, TX area. I will update my profile.

My build site is up on a hill. We also have lots of iron ore in the soil. I have no idea if that affects anything or not. We do have lots of lightning and I will be putting up lightning rods at both ends of the build.

Lots of things I'm changing with this build as compaired to the old one. For one, NO MORE 12:12 pitch roof! Too hard to build and work on.

thanks
Austin

 

[dbonne]

Sorry to hear about your loss. Hope you come out of this ok.

 

[richfrazier]

I joined just to be able to reply to your post.
my house got hit by lightning about 5-6 years ago. I work for the power company and got the call about 2am. thankfully I lived alone and no one got hurt.i did have insurance but a lot of it wasn't covered.i build motorcyles in my basement and only one bike that had insurance was covered.i took a huge hit on 4 antique triumphs that I had.
the reason for my reply is that you can claim a loss on your taxes at the end of the year.you wont get all your money back but you can get some.

I feel your pain!

 

[Kevin54]

I really don't see a reason that you couldn't pour over the top of your slab. It's going to be stronger than if you rip it out and pour over gravel. Once it's all cleaned off and swept off, you'll be able to tell more closely what you have as far as any small cracks.

I'm sorry to hear about the fire, but when Mother Nature decides to unleash her fury, there's no stopping her. Luckily it was just the shell and not a completed building and a house.

Just the other day, when I was getting insurance put on the wifes Olds, I asked our insurance man to stop out so we can go over our Homeowners Policy. With having more tools in the garage, plus a mill and a lathe, then all of the stuff in the wifes Craft building, I want to make sure we have adequate coverage on things. We usually go over things every year, but with the bad luck with docs and family the last couple years we haven't been able to get together.

 

[dablack]

I joined just to be able to reply to your post.
the reason for my reply is that you can claim a loss on your taxes at the end of the year.you wont get all your money back but you can get some.

I feel your pain!

Thanks so much for your post. I hadn't thought of that. That will be a big help for sure. Money is very tight and every little bit helps.

Austin

 

[nolimits76]

Austin,

If you end up pouring a slab on top of the existing, I would talk with Hilti as I mentioned before. Typically you will want to drill and epoxy new reinforcing into the existing slab so that it's not just "floating". They can guide you with proper diameters, depths, exact material type, pricing, etc.

If their pricing is too much of a premium check with our local construction supply houses. There are other "or equal" products that are similar to the Hilti line that might help you save a few bucks. We've had the luxury to use them, and they know their stuff and deliver a quality product hence my recommendation. However, they are rarely the cheapest option available.

Kevin,

In regards to your insurance policy on the tools....do you have to carry a separate waiver for $X value? I have State Farm, and have to do this for firearms and jewelry. I just figured tools would be similar. Then comes the fun part of doing a detailed inventory in the event something is lost/stolen.

 

[BMS]

You can absolutely pour a new slab on top of it. As long as your soils are good for the weight (should not be an issue). You can drill and epoxy anchors (call your local Hilti rep for a recommendation) and pour the new slab. Whether or not a bond breaker would be needed, I'm not sure. A structural engineer should really comment.

Clearly I'm no engineer, but if it was mine, and I wasn't putting another slab on top of the old, I'd demo the slab portion first and see if it made sense to leave the footers in place. Have a quick concrete sample taken from a couple of spots and test it. Look for a materials testing company, it really shouldn't cost much and, in fact, insurance may be willing to pay for it since the test would be far less than demo & replacement of the footers. This is the type of group around me that does that sort of testing http://www.ecslimited.com/

Yes, fire does weird things to concrete but with 4" of concrete on top of the footers and earth around the footers, they may not have been exposed to much.

Then again, if insurance is paying for it, start over slab, footings, and all. And take the opportunity to put in radiant flooring.

Just my $.02

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ ^ Didn't READ very well. Post # 27 says . . . NO INSURANCE. :

So sorry for your un-insured loss OP. Like another poster indicates, make sure you take a big tax write off for Casualty Loss. Take a bunch of pics to cover yourself in case IRS comes back on you within 3 yr audit period.

I'd have a concrete guy look at your pics to see slab cleaned up whether it makes sense to put slab over top to save money. Likely can't hurt. Only thing IFFY might be a lift location if you were intending to do so.

Worse case scenario on budget re-pour, you could make the whole footprint slightly bigger with footings outside the existing slab, with proper re-bar ties to old slab.

Good luck with getting back on track with build.

 

[dablack]

Still haven't finished clearing the slab yet. Checked a couple of spots and it looks like it is still mostly just 1/4 to 1/2 popped off the top in special areas. The rest looks ok but I haven't seen it all yet.

The taxes thing was a bust. I ran the numbers and it is just another deduction. I have four kids. It really doesn't help me much. If I paid more in taxes, it would help me more but since I don't pay much, it really doesn't do anything for me. I always get back every penny I put in. If it was a tax credit, that would be different but it is just a deduction. Oh well.

I will post pictures of the slab when it is cleared off.

thanks
Austin