Garage Door opener modification

[steffen707]

Okay, so I have a garage with a 7'11" height at the front and back, allowing me only a 7' door with 11" headroom. I want to order a low rise roof pitch door from Menards. Their Ideal door company can custom make a low rise roof pitch track for me. With this type of door, I can't use a jackshaft opener, so I need to use a trolly, which i'm fine with.

I just bought a chain drive chamberlain to measure how long it is because I have a 3/10 pitch from the 7'11" wall that goes 8 feet diagonally to a 10 foot long flat section of ceiling that is 10 feet off the ground, then the back of the garage has a 3/10 pitch that's 8 feet long that decends to the rear wall with height 7'11".

The 7 foot door will tuck up nicely to the ceiling; however, the garage door opener is 10'4" long from header bracket to the rear of the opener unit.

What I want to know is, why do they make it 10'4" long, when its only openeing a 7' door? (yes this is a 7' door opener, it says must buy rail extension kit for 8' or more door) Can I remove one of the rail sections and modify the chain and cable to be shorter to give me the clearance I need.

Otherwise I will have to use a 2/12 pitch track because of the 10'4" hypotenuse of a opener track, thus giving me less clearance for the low ceiling lift I'm going to install in the garage.???

Please help.

 

[nova65ss]

It is that long because the arm that attaches to the door comes back about 1-2 feet past the door. If it were only 7' long it would only open about 5-6 feet.

 

[steffen707]

Anybody else modify one? I read about a guy on sears.com that did it cuz of a support beam, he said it was no problem with clearance on a 7 foot door and only 8'6" of backroom.

 

[nova65ss]

How much are you wanting to cut off? The screwdrives are much easier to cut down. When we need to do it we use the screwdrive, just cut it and redrill the holes for the front mount and your done.

 

[UPSHIFT]

Okay, so I have a garage with a 7'11" height at the front and back, allowing me only a 7' door with 11" headroom. I want to order a low rise roof pitch door from Menards. Their Ideal door company can custom make a low rise roof pitch track for me. With this type of door, I can't use a jackshaft opener, so I need to use a trolly, which i'm fine with.

I just bought a chain drive chamberlain to measure how long it is because I have a 3/10 pitch from the 7'11" wall that goes 8 feet diagonally to a 10 foot long flat section of ceiling that is 10 feet off the ground, then the back of the garage has a 3/10 pitch that's 8 feet long that decends to the rear wall with height 7'11".

The 7 foot door will tuck up nicely to the ceiling; however, the garage door opener is 10'4" long from header bracket to the rear of the opener unit.

What I want to know is, why do they make it 10'4" long, when its only openeing a 7' door? (yes this is a 7' door opener, it says must buy rail extension kit for 8' or more door) Can I remove one of the rail sections and modify the chain and cable to be shorter to give me the clearance I need.

Otherwise I will have to use a 2/12 pitch track because of the 10'4" hypotenuse of a opener track, thus giving me less clearance for the low ceiling lift I'm going to install in the garage.???

Please help.

This is the way to go when you are scratching for clearance, this made the difference in me getting a lift inside my Garage.

http://www.liftmaster.com/consumerweb/products/pflResidentialJackshaft.htm

 

[steffen707]

Yeah I wanted a jackshaft operator; however, i have to use a low rise double track, and was told by the door company that I can't use a jackshaft with that type of track.

 

[kbs2244]

The “extra” track is there because they bolt the end of the track to the door header in order to avoid the need for strong bracing to resist the back and forth thrust.

I have used standard length openers on high doors by putting the header end about 2 feet from the wall and making good brackets.
(You do need to extend the “L” rod when you do this.)

In your case, could you make some brackets and reverse the opener so that the motor is at the door end? That would put the motor assembly in the “wasted” space at the door end.

 

[nova65ss]

The “extra” track is there because they bolt the end of the track to the door header in order to avoid the need for strong bracing to resist the back and forth thrust.

I have used standard length openers on high doors by putting the header end about 2 feet from the wall and making good brackets.
(You do need to extend the “L” rod when you do this.)

In your case, could you make some brackets and reverse the opener so that the motor is at the door end? That would put the motor assembly in the “wasted” space at the door end.

The extra track is actually there so the top section can come straight back instead of up and then back. Allows you to install the door in less headroom.

If you have a chain break it would not be hard to cut down the chain drive, even a punch and a hammer will make quick work of the chain.

 

[steffen707]

In your case, could you make some brackets and reverse the opener so that the motor is at the door end? That would put the motor assembly in the “wasted” space at the door end.

Is this even possible? I've never heard of somebody doing that before. I'm intrigued for sure.

Would the operator just be working in reverse then? So like when I open the garage, the garage door thinks i'm actually closing it, and vise versa?

I guess as long as you turned the motor unit to face the front wall and just custom mounted the rail to the back end of the unit, instead of the front, this could be done. A very very interesting idea.

 

[steffen707]

The extra track is actually there so the top section can come straight back instead of up and then back. Allows you to install the door in less headroom.

If you have a chain break it would not be hard to cut down the chain drive, even a punch and a hammer will make quick work of the chain.

One way or another I can modify the chain. One other possibility for me is to get a 3' extension for a 10' door, and just stuff the motor unit up in the rafters above the 10' osb ceiling and just cut a slot for the track to run through the osb.

 

[nova65ss]

With low headroom I can't see there being enough room for the motor up front.

A Zap operator will work with low headroom, may want to look into those.

I would also guess but have not tried yet, that a Liftmaster 3800 mounted up against the ceiling would probably work a low head door. One of these days I will try it and see.

 

[steffen707]

If I could buy one locally and then return it if it didn't work I would totally try the 3800, but I can't get one locally. With the low headroom that I have, I was thinking of squeezing the opener in between two of the trusses above the header if it couldn't fit.

 

[steffen707]

Has anybody else installed a jackshaft operator to a low rise dual track garage door?

Also has anybody installed a jackshaft operator on a clopay or ideal door ez set torsion bar garage door?

 

[JOHNMAN]

One problem with what is being shown in the sketches is the idler pulley (opposite end of the chain from the motor).

The "normal" configuration of a chain driven opener, has the motor pulling the chain via a sprocket mounted away from the door. This places a minimum of chain tension on the idler pulley. If one was to move the motor and gearbox close to the door, and the idler away from the door, the idler pulley would be subjected to all the chain tension required to raise the door. I don't believe the bearings supporting the idler pulley are rated to take the load.

Without a doubt it would not last and is a poor design. It is best to pull the chain in a straight direction without turns between the drive sprocket and the load. It can be done, but needs to be designed to do so.

If you are going to go through all this trouble, why not simply install a jackshaft mounted door opener designed for the task? In my opinion, it would be safer and probably last longer than a Rube Goldberg solution.

 

[steffen707]

I've read that jackshaft openers require the door to "freefall" otherwise when it turns the jackshaft, its possible the door won't move but the drums will causing the cable to loosen, and then possibly fall off the drums, and that could be dangerous.

 

[nova65ss]

One problem with what is being shown in the sketches is the idler pulley (opposite end of the chain from the motor).

The "normal" configuration of a chain driven opener, has the motor pulling the chain via a sprocket mounted away from the door. This places a minimum of chain tension on the idler pulley. If one was to move the motor and gearbox close to the door, and the idler away from the door, the idler pulley would be subjected to all the chain tension required to raise the door. I don't believe the bearings supporting the idler pulley are rated to take the load.

Without a doubt it would not last and is a poor design. It is best to pull the chain in a straight direction without turns between the drive sprocket and the load. It can be done, but needs to be designed to do so.

If you are going to go through all this trouble, why not simply install a jackshaft mounted door opener designed for the task? In my opinion, it would be safer and probably last longer than a Rube Goldberg solution.

Pulling is pulling really wouldn't matter where the motor is or which way it is going. All the idler pulley near the header of a garage door opener is just that an idler. I've never seen one with bearings they are usually just a plastic pulley with a bolt through the middle. If it would fit it would work and you could just 180 the chain to correct it from thinking it is going up when it is really going down and vice versa.

The Liftmaster jackshaft will not work with low headroom so it is not an option.

 

[nova65ss]

I've read that jackshaft openers require the door to "freefall" otherwise when it turns the jackshaft, its possible the door won't move but the drums will causing the cable to loosen, and then possibly fall off the drums, and that could be dangerous.

You really never want the door to freefall. With a jackshaft motor the door should be evenly balanced going both up and down. The cable is more likely to get slack and come off if the springs are weak at the top.

If you have 11" of headroom you should be able to make standard 12 radius track work with a LM jackshaft motor. Especially if you have open rafters.

Do you have any pics of what you are working with?

 

[JOHNMAN]

Pulling is pulling really wouldn't matter where the motor is or which way it is going. All the idler pulley near the header of a garage door opener is just that an idler. I've never seen one with bearings they are usually just a plastic pulley with a bolt through the middle. If it would fit it would work and you could just 180 the chain to correct it from thinking it is going up when it is really going down and vice versa.

If one were to mount the motor sprocket near the door (per the sketch above) and the idler away from the door (per the sketch above), the full tension in the chain required to lift the door would have to be supported by the axle (bearing supported or not) of the idler sprocket. I contend that the idler sprocket is not designed for this load and should be placed close to the door and the drive motor and sprocket located away from the door.

Perhaps you should try this and report back when it fails.

 

[steffen707]

Perhaps you should try this and report back when it fails.

LOL, i like your optimism. I'm probably gunna try the trolly operator, and see if I can get it to fit above the door on the header, if not, i will get a 3' extension for a 10' lift rail and stuff it up above the rafters. I do not have open rafters, there is osb lining the entire garage, BUT i would be willing to take the osb down and cut open the area needed for the motor unit to fit. I don't have pics of the garage, only sketches and a pdf of a 2d cad picture I have made of the dimensions of the garage from a side to side perspective.

I didn't mean like free fall as the door will fall on its own, but I meant that he the weight of the door for a jackshaft to work properly needs to keep constant tension on the cables and drums like a vertiacal or high lift track would have. Which makes sense. With a 3/12 pitch track, I would assume that the angle of the angle of the track and gravity would put constant tension of the door onto the cables, but on a normal 90 degree bent track, once the garage door is horizontal to the ground, its being supported by the track, and wouldn't be putting tension on the cable to properly allow the jackshaft operator to work properly.

 

[nova65ss]

If one were to mount the motor sprocket near the door (per the sketch above) and the idler away from the door (per the sketch above), the full tension in the chain required to lift the door would have to be supported by the axle (bearing supported or not) of the idler sprocket. I contend that the idler sprocket is not designed for this load and should be placed close to the door and the drive motor and sprocket located away from the door.

Perhaps you should try this and report back when it fails.

So what makes it any different facing the other way? With your theory the full support would be just the opposite going down mounted in a standard fashion. It has to push the door down so what is the difference? The only load on the idler is the load added by the tightness of the chain.


I have been in the garage door industry for 12 years now and can promise you where the motor is mounted has no effect on the idler or chain for that matter. We have mounted openers with the front part on the ground beside the door running vertically up the track. The front mount starting where the motor is going back with a 10' arm, so on and so on.


In regards to the spring tension, regardless of the track if the spring has enough turns it will keep constant tension on the cables. Even with standard track the bottom panel is still half way in the vertical position keeping tension on the cable.


I still think with 11" of headroom standard 12 radius track will work with a JS operator. No need for the low headroom tracks. You may need to cut about 2" off the vertiacal tracks. Any pics of what you have?

 

[Daves75]

So what makes it any different facing the other way? With your theory the full support would be just the opposite going down mounted in a standard fashion. It has to push the door down so what is the difference? The only load on the idler is the load added by the tightness of the chain.

I still think with 11" of headroom standard 12 radius track will work with a JS operator. No need for the low headroom tracks. You may need to cut about 2" off the vertiacal tracks. Any pics of what you have?

Nova is right, if you have 11" of headroom cut no more then 1-1/2"-2" max off of the bottom of the vertical track. You can get a low clearence mounting option for the LM3800, this allows you to move the unit down by 6".
I have talked to Liftmaster directly, on using the 3800 on standard lowheadroom applications and they are very strong worded against this. We are going to try it in the near future and see what all happens

 

[steffen707]

If you cut 1.5-2" of the vertical track off, then won't the top of the garage door not fully close and actually be on the angled part of the rail?

 

[steffen707]

Here is my garage.

WHERE IS THE OPENEING? That's right, I bought a house with a 25x28 inside measured shop. So I have to install a header and garage door.
Here a inside pic of where the garage door will go, and a jpeg of some measurements i've taken.

 

[steffen707]

So the ideal door I was going to order from menards needs 12" of clearance, I understand what you guys are saying about cutting the vertical, but then the door will be an inch higher up the track, and wouldn't that pull the top of the door away from the wall, thus causing a gap between the garage door and the garage door opening?

 

[nova65ss]

If you cut 1.5-2" of the vertical track off, then won't the top of the garage door not fully close and actually be on the angled part of the rail?

The top roller is in the curved radius on all garage doors. The top fixture is adjustable and that allows you to push it out against the header. With 11" of headroom and cutting 2" off will give you 13" and that is more than enough for standard 12 radius, torsion spring, and a LM 3800.

Worse case scenario depending on how tall of a vehicle you will be bringing in you could go with a 6'9" door and not cut anything off the tracks.

 

[steffen707]

Thanks nova, (nice looking car by the way) Do you have any pictures of a 12" radius door that has been modified by cutting the vertical tracks like what you're suggesting? Considering I'm only 1" shy of the "required headroom" i'm thinking you are right and this should work.

 

[steffen707]

While i've got your help, what do you think of those ez-set torsion springs? Should I just go with the standard torsion spring setup that's been tried and tested?

 

[steffen707]

You mean by adjusting this bracket, you can keep the door flush to the opening, but move the roller farther away from the door, and more up the track?

 

[nova65ss]

Yeah that is a top fixture, as you see the roller carrier is adjustable. I would start around an inch and a half, 2" would be the max without running into problems with the top of the door hitting the drum.

As fas as the EZ set stuff I have never used it but see it all the time. It uses the same parts as a standard torsion setup only it comes with a winding device that allows you to wind the springs with a drill rather than bars. Can't see a reason not to use it, if you have never worked with a standard setup it is much more safe.

 

[steffen707]

Do the ez sets use standard 1" diameter jackshafts? Cuz that's what's required for the LM 3800.

Oh also, I heard from another door guy that he didn't suggest a jackshaft operator with the ezset stuff because they use smaller diameter drums and are more prone to cables falling off the drums with a JO......Any thoughts?

 

[JOHNMAN]

So what makes it any different facing the other way? With your theory the full support would be just the opposite going down mounted in a standard fashion. It has to push the door down so what is the difference? The only load on the idler is the load added by the tightness of the chain.


I have been in the garage door industry for 12 years now and can promise you where the motor is mounted has no effect on the idler or chain for that matter. We have mounted openers with the front part on the ground beside the door running vertically up the track. The front mount starting where the motor is going back with a 10' arm, so on and so on.

The difference being that a properly mounted chain driven door operator (as designed), is to be mounted so that the tension in the lifting chain stays between the driver sprocket and the trolley that acts to lift the door. The idler sprocket/pulley is always under no/very minimum load.

You stated yourself that the idlers typically have no bearing (and no load capacity), just a simple bolt axle is the norm. This would not hold up in the long term.

You do understand that all warranties are void and all liability is transferred to the installer once there is deviation from the as-designed and recommended installation.

I'm done with this topic.

Feel free to do what you want.

 

[steffen707]

JOHNMAN, thanks for the heads up about warranties, and the like, but obviously i'm rigging this up. I wouldn't be suing liftmaster if this killed somebody or smashed my car. I'm simply trying something out of the box. Just cuz its not the normal way, doesn't mean it can't work. That's how progress is made.