Garage Door - remove panel - spring tension

[94legaleagle]

I bought a used 10 wide x 12 high insulated garage door, track, springs, shaft, hardware, etc. It consists of 6 panels - each panel is 10' wide and 2' tall. FOR PURPOSES of my question, let's ASSUME that to lift the 10 x 12 door that the springs each needed to be wound 8 1/2 turns

I want to install the door in a 10 high x 10 wide opening, and figure I can do this by shortening the track and leaving out 1 panel (IE: only use 5 panels; each panel is 2 feet tall, so I'll end up w/ a 10' high door)

QUESTION: can I simply use the old springs (ie: the springs that were used to lift the 10 x 12 door and had to be wound 8 1/2 turns), BUT just not wind them as tight? Stated another way, will the old springs for the 10 x 12 door lift the 10 x 10 door if I don't wind them as tight was was required for them to lift the 10 x 12 door???

 

[Itsals1]

You will need to replace the springs,drums,cables!
It's not as easy as most people think. I'm in the garage door business and I get similar questions often.
Your best bet is to weight the sections you will be using, or go to the nearest garage door dealer that deals with your door every day.
Haas,CHI,Clopay,etc.
Tell them your wants/needs and see if they can help you.
Always be careful, you'll save money hiring a pro vs. a trip to the ER or worse!

Travis

 

[kbs2244]

Itsals is a pro,
But I have done what you propose with no problems.
I did use new cables just because the old were frayed.

 

[jstroede]

Is the door standard lift? If so, the springs will be close as long as each section is the same. The cables will be need to be shortened. If any vertical lift, high lift, roof pitch, or anything like that is involved, then the springs will definitely not work.

John

 

[94legaleagle]

Thanks for all the replies; I've installed 4 - 5 garage doors before, so this isn't my 1st attempt

I talked w/ my local contractor - he didn't think it would work, but he would not say that it would NOT work - might, but I'd have to try it

so, I'll try it - I've got nothing to loose other than my time -

it is a standard lift door - Yep, I forgot to mention that I will have to shorten the cables - that can be done by cutting and cable clamping them; OR, I'm wondering about simply beginning to roll the extra cable onto the drums at each end till the cable is tight, then tighten the drum to the shaft, then put tension on the springs

worst case scenario is that it doesn't work and I have to get new cables, drums and springs - but, I'm willing to give it a try

 

[jstroede]

No the cables need to be the correct length for the assembly to function properly. Cable clamps generallywill not work well withcable drums. They are designed to use crimped cable stops.

John

 

[BudgetRacing]

For a standard lift door the cable length does not make a difference. The diameter doesn't change therefore there will be no difference in applied torque. High lift and vertical lift drums are different. The design of those allows the torque to be maintained even though the weight stays the same.

I would imagine it would be fairly close to balanced without the section and putting less turns on the springs as long as you take the height of the section off the tracks. (Be sure to cut from the bottom to preserve the horizontal track mounting points and correct offset. If it was me i would put 8 turns on each spring and then alternate adding 2 quarter turns on each one until it lifts off the floor slightly. Be sure to have vice grips clamped on the track about 6 inches above one of the rollers in case you put too much.

 

[DeliveryGuy]

I did some VERY quick calculations here. I'm going to assume 2.5lbs per sq ft total weight. This is fairly standard for polyurethane insulated, 26 gauge steel doors. A 10x12 should weigh about 300lbs (50lbs per panel, hardware too). If your door is standard lift, and has 4" commercial drums, the springs would be within 3/4" length to those of a 10x10, 250lbs door made with the same panels. 3/4" too short, actually.

Many of us in the door industry are very quick to say major modifications cannot be done safely. I'm usually the first one to say so. This is because there is no "code" for what we do (like electrical, or plumbing) and everybody and the cousin demands we do the most ridiculous repairs "because it's just a garage door". As well, torsion spring calculations are a lot more complicated than most people think.

I'm conclusion, I think what you want to do is very attainable, and I would encourage you to take on the project. Using the same springs, wound up less, will likely balance safe enough for a chain hoist, or operator. In fact, the door may be a little "hot", or upwardly biased. The cables should be shortened. If you look at the cable drums, you'll notice the first ramp is more inclined than the rest, and this serves a specific function. Winding the excess cable onto the drum will bypass this feature.

Other than the huge wall of text to read here, use the correct high stress steel rods for the springs, and don't stick your fingers anywhere you wouldn't stick your......

 

[jstroede]

I did some VERY quick calculations here. I'm going to assume 2.5lbs per sq ft total weight. This is fairly standard for polyurethane insulated, 26 gauge steel doors. A 10x12 should weigh about 300lbs (50lbs per panel, hardware too). If your door is standard lift, and has 4" commercial drums, the springs would be within 3/4" length to those of a 10x10, 250lbs door made with the same panels. 3/4" too short, actually.

Many of us in the door industry are very quick to say major modifications cannot be done safely. I'm usually the first one to say so. This is because there is no "code" for what we do (like electrical, or plumbing) and everybody and the cousin demands we do the most ridiculous repairs "because it's just a garage door". As well, torsion spring calculations are a lot more complicated than most people think.

I'm conclusion, I think what you want to do is very attainable, and I would encourage you to take on the project. Using the same springs, wound up less, will likely balance safe enough for a chain hoist, or operator. In fact, the door may be a little "hot", or upwardly biased. The cables should be shortened. If you look at the cable drums, you'll notice the first ramp is more inclined than the rest, and this serves a specific function. Winding the excess cable onto the drum will bypass this feature.

Other than the huge wall of text to read here, use the correct high stress steel rods for the springs, and don't stick your fingers anywhere you wouldn't stick your......

Great post. I agree 100 percent, and funny I used those same numbers to check. It won't always work out, but in this case it does.

John

 

[BudgetRacing]

The cables should be shortened. If you look at the cable drums, you'll notice the first ramp is more inclined than the rest, and this serves a specific function. Winding the excess cable onto the drum will bypass this feature.

A proper length of cable should have 3/4" of a wrap on it when installed properly. That last quarter of a wrap on the slightly raised portion of the drum will almost not even affect it. Especially when we are talking about what he is planning to do anyways.

 

[Highlux]

Be careful man...Im sure you know that spring is a beast under tension.

My dumb **** loosened the bracket on the bottom panel the one the cable attaches to one day to fix something...I got the last bolt halfway out and the bracket pulled the bolt out...and zinged past my face at 88 mph and stuck in the ceiling. I about crapped myself.

I called a garage door guy now. My big spring broke once...pretty loud and scary.

That spring is a beast.

 

[Thumper68]

Be careful man...Im sure you know that spring is a beast under tension.


I called a garage door guy now. My big spring broke once...pretty loud and scary.

That spring is a beast.

I also had a spring let loose while I was in the shop, I must have jumped high enough to fix it.

Of course I had just pulled my truck into the shop and I had no way to raise the door, (old solid core wood) so I had no choice but to call the door company and have them deliver a new spring and install it, just so I could get the truck out to go to work the next day.

Now I keep a spare spring just in case it happens again.

To the OP, I see no issue with what you are trying to do, and if it doesn't work you are out nothing but some time.

 

[DeliveryGuy]

Great post. I agree 100 percent, and funny I used those same numbers to check. It won't always work out, but in this case it does.

John

Thanks! You said what I neglected to say. Using the same springs when modifying a door rarely ever works out.

Here's a great set of videos everyone should watch if they would like to learn exactly how torsion springs work.

 

[94legaleagle]

Great information DeliveryGuy & Budget Racing! Thanks to everyone for the info.

I'm convinced it can be done - biggest headache won't be getting the door to work, but rather enlargening the opening - currently is an 8 wide x 8 high door that will be replaced, so I'm going to have to put in a new header, etc . . . I'll have to support the rafters to take the header out because the rafters rest on the wall that the door goes in

this will be a summer project, and I'll post the results. Thanks!