Garage Door Spring Question

[Junkman]

I heard a bang in the garage, and went to investigate. Didn't see anything, until I tried to open the garage door. It wouldn't go up, and that is when I noticed that the torsion spring was broken in half. Now, for the history of this door. Originally, it was a 9' wide 4 21" metal insulated panel door. After a couple of years, I called the company that installed it, and asked them if they could raise the tracks. They came and raised the tracks to the ceiling as I requested, and added one additional 21" panel. They lengthened the length of the arm on the door operator, and now, the arm is almost vertical. Prior to the spring breaking, if I released the door operator arm by pulling on the inside rope, it was extremely heavy and difficult to lift. I don't believe that they changed the spring when the extra panel was added and the tracks moved. If my memory is correct, they just tightened the spring to compensate for the extra weight.
Now, for my question, how do I determine what the correct spring should be for when I replace it. I am also thinking of changing the door operator to a Lift Master Jackshaft Garage Door Operator model 3800. How much of the shaft needs to be sticking out past the top bracket where the torsion bar is secured to? I will be installing the Liftmaster Jackshaft operators on both garage doors, so I am also looking for suggestions where to buy them for the least amount of money. Since my old Lift Master operators are about 20 years old, am I correct in my assumption that the outside keypad will not work with the new units? Will I have to change the sensor eyes that are mounted on the bottom edge of the tracks, or can the old ones be reused? Any suggestions on what accessories that I should consider at this time that need to be part of the initial installation?

 

[gnpenning]

If you can give me the weight of door, door size, total height to spring shaft and drum information I can spec out a spring.

Release opener carefuly put a couple bars under bottom panel and raise enough to get a scale under door. I needs 100% of door weight to work. correctly. I have a arm that we use for getting weight. You can also use a come along on both sides and raise equally.

Or call a different door company and let them work it out for you.

Liftmaster upgraded the 3800 do to problems to the 8500. See latest 8500 thread. The new opener will come with new eyes. You will need to run new wires anyway as you will be changing opener location. Old Remotes, keyless entry, wall button will not work with the 8500

 

[Junkman]

The weight of the door is 130 pounds, and it is 2 1/2 feet from the top of the door to the ceiling. The diameter of the drum is 5" inches as best that I can tell. Right now, I don't have a tall enough ladder to get up to the roller, so I did as best as I can. If necessary, I can remove the top section of the door, since it was only installed to accommodate the higher tracks. The door presently is 8 3/4 feet high by 9 feet wide. The original door was 7' high x 9' wide. If I would be better off with 2 springs, that would be OK also.
Thanks for the help.

 

[dacuda]

don't the springs have colors on them to determine tension if i remember correctly when i changed mine out

 

[Junkman]

Didn't see any color on them, from the ground. On Monday, when I can get a longer ladder, I will check for a color marking.

 

[DCarr2]

Or you can do what me and my neighbor did, to fix his broken spring.

about an hour in my shop, and 30 minutes in his garage and we fixed the broken spring using a square block... we actually did it twice cause the same spring broke again in a diff spot about 6months later... lol

 

[gnpenning]

Extension springs use the color for buying. Yours are torsion. A color will be used on the snake for wire size but nothing else.

Based on a 9 x 8'9" 130 pound door, with 400-54 drum and 24" of high lift. High lift is based on how much the door actually rises to the radius.

1 spring. .250 wire 2" I'd x 44.9" long. 10.8 turns.

2 springs. .192 wire 2" id. X 24.9 long. 10.8 turns

Both were calculated with a 15,000 life cycle.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

Not to be a pain but that is not a high lift drum. Looks like a normal std lift. The outfit did raise the track but by adding another section they tried to make it a regular lift. I do not have a calculator but you have good information coming to you from others. Just thinking out loud.

 

[gnpenning]

Hot rod you are correct. Those are not high lift drums. The calculation was made on the drums he has.

It should have HL drums and longer cable's. I gave what was asked. I took the accessories part to mean the opener.

 

[Hot Rod Grampa]

GNpenning. I ran the calculations using the 400-54 high lift drum and with 2 springs at 130lbs with 33" hl 10k comes in at 2-.192-25.3 with 11.5 turns. 25k 2-.207-36.2. I think the difference of 33vs24 in lift should not make a huge difference. Either way the op needs the correct hardware. A local guy should be able to fix him up. Forget the big box for this. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Slednut]

This guy covers all you need to know.

http://ddmgaragedoors.com/diy-instructions/how-to-measure-torsion-springs.php

 

[jstroede]

Where did you get 130 lbs because I really don't think that's right. You frankly have a bit of a mess there. The cables, drums, and springs should all be changed. They are standard lift drums and will not correctly lift the door. The extra turns they put on your spring to make it function are what caused it to prematurely fail.

John

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Junkman]

Just getting back to this, since I was away for the weekend & Monday. I lifted the door, and put a scale under it. What is the difference between a high lift drum and a regular drum? How do I know what high lift drum to purchase, and can I purchase cables already made to length? If I were to call a garage door company to come out to repair this, how long time wise, of a job is this? The person that installed the door and converted it to a high rise door, was the owner of the door company, and he has since retired.

 

[drs3317]

Don't forget to always keep your spring lubed. Friction also causes these torsion springs to fail.

 

[LB-1911]

Just getting back to this, since I was away for the weekend & Monday. I lifted the door, and put a scale under it.

What is the difference between a high lift drum and a regular drum?

Because the high-lift and vertical-lift garage doors open differently, these systems need different cable drums.

Vertical-lift cable drums are not flat like standard-lift cable drums. Instead, the cable continually winds closer to the shaft on the drum as the garage door opens.

High-lift cable drums are essentially a mixture of the vertical-lift and standard-lift cable drums. The first few times that the cable wraps around the drum, it moves closer to the shaft like a vertical-lift drum.

At a certain point, however, the drum levels out and the cable continues to wrap around the drum at a constant distance from the shaft like a standard-lift drum


Source of above
How Vertical-Lift and High-Lift Garage Doors Work


Additional information you may find of use
Do-It-Yourself Garage Door Instruction Library

 

[Junkman]

Called a local garage door installation company, and the installer took one look at the door, and said he had to call the office. Spent 10 minutes on the phone out in his truck, and came back in saying that the "boss wasn't in the office, and he, the boss, will call me tomorrow. I could see that he really didn't want to do the job. Now, I will be trying another installer. I have to believe that this isn't an impossible job to do, just that it is going to take someone that knows what they are doing to do the calculations, and come back with the correct parts.

 

[jstroede]

Ok I sat down and looked a little at this. Going off of what I see in the picture, I believe I know the manufacturer and model of the door. In a configuration that I see, which is 9'x8'9", I get a door weight of 164 lbs. Taking measurements off of the track in the picture, I see 20" of high lift. Using this, and a pair of the correct 400-54 drums, I get a pair of .207-2-28.5 springs with 10.5 turns. Cable length would be the floor to the center line of shaft plus 63" minus the amount of high lift. Rough numbers would be 131" + 63" - 20" = 174", or 14'6" cables. Most garage door service guys can fab a set of cables to that length.

Now if you took off that top section and went back to a 9x7 door, you would have a door weight of about 136 lbs and 41" of high lift. With the 400-54 drums, you would need a pair of .207-2-32.5 springs with 11.3 turns and cables that are 153" or 12'9" long.

Again, I am going off of what I see in the pictures. This is not hard to fix correctly. You just need the correct parts.

John

 

[Junkman]

I had a second door company come to look at it this morning, and he gave me a price of $300 - $350 to replace the torsion spring, remove and replace the drums with the correct drums, and make any adjustments that are necessary to that door, and he is also going to lubricate, and adjust the other 4 doors while he is here. I gave him the go ahead, and it should be fixed sometime late next week. Told me that this was a one man job, and he didn't expect that it will take more than 3 to 4 hours to complete, and if it goes faster, he will only charge for the actual time on the job.

I also got a quote today from the first company that came to look at the door, and I could tell that the installer wasn't really interested in doing this job. Below is their quote.

Existing Door was modified for high lift, we will need to convert to our high lift and
re-spring.
2' Track Highlift track set (up to 36" of high lift) 1 219.30 ..............219.30T
Torsion S... set torsion springs 1 236.50 ......................................236.50T
850-11 D... highlift drums 2 @ 26.00.............................................52.00T
3/16" Cable HIghlift cables 32 @ 1.75............................................56.00T
Brackets ... Bottom brackets 2 @ 18.00..........................................36.00T
LABOR TO REMOVE & DISPOSE OF EXISTING TRACK, HARDWARE &
SPRINGS. WE WILL THEN RE-USE SECTIONS, HINGES AND ROLLERS
TO INSTALL WITH NEW PARTS ABOVE
LABOR ... 5 Hours @ 85.00..........................................................425.00
2 MEN 2 LABOR SECOND MAN 5 Hours @ 55.00..............................275.00

PLEASE NOTE, WE WILL NEED A CLEAR WORK AREA BELOW DOOR TO
WORK SAFELY. WE WILL ALSO NEED TO COME BACK OUT AND VERIFY
EXACT TRACK HEIGHT TO ORDER. WE PRICED FOR 36" OF HIGHLIFT TO
BE SAFE, PRICE MAY BE REDUCED BY APROX $25 IF ONLY 24"

LEAD TIME IS 2-3 WEEKS, PLEASE SIGN & FAX BACK TO ***_***_*** TO
ORDER OR MAIL TO ADDRESS ABOVE. ATTENTION: *********
THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY TO QUOTE THIS JOB FOR YOU.
LEADTI... 0.00 0.00T
Sales Tax...............................................................6.25%..............37.49
Total Cost...........................................................................$1,337.29

ALL MATERIAL IS GUARANTEED TO BE AS SPECIFIED. ALL WORK
COMPLETED IN A WORKMANLIKE MANNOR ACCORDING TO STANDARD
PRACTICES. ANY ALTERATION OR DEVIATION FROM THE ABOVE
SPECIFICATIONS INVOLVING EXTRA COSTS WILL BE EXCECUTED ONLY
UPON WRITTEN ORDERS AND WILL BECOME AN EXTRA CHARGE OVER
AND ABOVE THE ESTIMATE. ALL AGREEMENTS CONTINGENT UPON
STRIKES, ACCIDENTS, OR DELAYS BEYOND OUR CONTROL. OWNER TO
CARRY ALL NECESSARY INSURANCE. ALL OUR WORKERS ARE FULLY
COVERED BY WORKERS COMPENSATION INSURANCE.
_________________________________________
DATE:
________________________________________

 

[gnpenning]

Definitely a one man job. The first guys is including new cable's? ?

Did he tell you how many cycles he spec' d for the springs?? Have him give you the spring spec so if you ever break one again you can give them spring size over the phone.

Sounds like you made the right choice.

 

[rburke65]

Wow.....I'm thinking you were right.....that first guy didn't want the job. A $1,000 difference I think you can go out for a nice dinner!

 

[Junkman]

Definitely a one man job. The first guys is including new cable's? ?

Did he tell you how many cycles he spec' d for the springs?? Have him give you the spring spec so if you ever break one again you can give them spring size over the phone.

Sounds like you made the right choice.

I asked about going to 2 springs, and he said that hey were not as robust as the single spring, and they would have a shorter spring life than the single spring. Said it has to do with the diameter of the wire that is used being smaller. it doesn't have as many duty cycle as a single heavier wire spring.

 

[jstroede]

I asked about going to 2 springs, and he said that hey were not as robust as the single spring, and they would have a shorter spring life than the single spring. Said it has to do with the diameter of the wire that is used being smaller. it doesn't have as many duty cycle as a single heavier wire spring.

Bunch of BS. As long as there is shaft space and the spring wire isn't TOO small, I will always spec 2 springs.

For example, I threw some BS numbers in a high lift and got a single spring that is .250-2-40 inches long with 10.7 turns that calculates to 11000 cycles with 16 lbs of spring wire. If I go to two springs, it comes to .207-2-32 with 10.7 turns that calculates to 25000 cycles with 20 lbs of spring wire. Smaller spring wire, more cycles.

Plus, even numbers of springs work much better in the long run. Single springs winding and unwinding want to push and pull on the shaft. Other than small single car doors on standard lift, I always prefer even numbers of springs when possible.

John

 

[geyas]

interesting thread, I also have the same question

 

[gnpenning]

I agree with the use of 2 springs.

Have him give you a print out on the single spring and double spring calculations he used. This will tell you cycles and we can double check for you. Post up pictures or email.