Garage Door Springs

[gregs]

I have a Clopay 16 x 7 garage door that was installed new in 2009. One of the torsion springs broke the other day so I started to figure out what I needed to order to repair it. (I have replaced and retensioned torsion springs before). So the spring that broke had the numbers stenciled on the coil (.250-2-29-0-LW) and I thought that was great and easy to order a pair. It also had a gold stripe on the end as well. I was looking at the other side and noticed it had an orange stripe on it and thought that seemed odd. So I decided to let the tension off and see if it had numbers stenciled on it as well and it did (.273-2-34-5-RW). I know what the numbers mean I just found it odd that it has 2 different springs installed new from the factory and wondered why? I had reset the balance on the door a few years back when I replaced the garage door opener and wondered why it took a different number of turns (6-1/4 left orange & 7-3/4 right gold/broken) to get it balanced evenly, I guess I know now.

 

[jstroede]

Unmatched pairs of springs can serve a few functions, but usually it is to help the the number of inventory items. Some manufacturers/dealers use them, and some don't. There is no right or wrong. For instance, if you have a 300 lb door and you already have a single spring for a 120 lb door, you can add a second spring to make up that other 180 lbs and make a pair. As long as the springs combined create the correct of IPPT (Inch Pounds Per Turn), you can mix and match as needed. The one down side is sometimes this will cause the springs to have different cycle lives. They should still be replaced in pairs in almost every case.

That being said, the number of turns should not be different. With standard 400-8 drums, you shouldn't have had only 6.25 turns. That would basically mean you were back winding the spring after it got back to it's relaxed point. A 7' door with standard 400-8 drums should require approximately 7.5 turns, give or take. Adding an extra quarter turn or so to one spring is a find tuning method, but having them vary that much isn't good.

 

[gregs]

I contacted Clopay but need additional information off of the door for them to tell me what its supposed to have. I will get that tonight and email them back in the morning. After looking at there site I found a manual that had spring selection and it made mention that it would be more likely to have 2 different springs than 2 that are the same. It had spring combinations by weight and they go in 6# increments. I also found my combination and that would be for a door weighing 360-366#'s.

Not sure why the one only needed 6.25 turns, but that was what it took for it to go up square and even and get the balance correct.

How much difference is there in a 1/2" length difference? The one spring is 34.5 inches long. Looking at replacements most come in even sizes like 35".

 

[jstroede]

It depends on wire size. The bigger the wire, the more difference a half an inch makes. If in doubt, always add the half inch not take it away. Longer springs are softer and easier to tune if needed.

Based on my math, your door weighs about 350 lbs, so it's close to your number.

For example, on 273 wire, a 1/2" of wire is a difference of approximately .9 IPPT. Multiply that times 7.5 turns, and you get a difference of about 7.5 maximum inch pounds. Divide that by 2.275 as the high moment arm of a 400-8 drum and you get a difference of 3 lbs. That's for one spring.

 

[gregs]

It depends on wire size. The bigger the wire, the more difference a half an inch makes. If in doubt, always add the half inch not take it away. Longer springs are softer and easier to tune if needed.

Based on my math, your door weighs about 350 lbs, so it's close to your number.

For example, on 273 wire, a 1/2" of wire is a difference of approximately .9 IPPT. Multiply that times 7.5 turns, and you get a difference of about 7.5 maximum inch pounds. Divide that by 2.275 as the high moment arm of a 400-8 drum and you get a difference of 3 lbs. That's for one spring.

Thanks for the help. I will see what Clopay says tomorrow as well.

I also went down the rabbit hole while researching things and came across a article about "Increasing the cycle life of your garage door torsion spring" by upgrading the size and length of the springs but maintaining the same IPPT. It says you can double or triple the cycle life by doing this. I havent found any charts that gives the IPPT or information on how to cross reference those. Just thinking since I have to buy 2 new springs maybe it would be worthwhile to upgrade them if possible.

 

[jstroede]

Thanks for the help. I will see what Clopay says tomorrow as well.

I also went down the rabbit hole while researching things and came across a article about "Increasing the cycle life of your garage door torsion spring" by upgrading the size and length of the springs but maintaining the same IPPT. It says you can double or triple the cycle life by doing this. I havent found any charts that gives the IPPT or information on how to cross reference those. Just thinking since I have to buy 2 new springs maybe it would be worthwhile to upgrade them if possible.

Not sure if those charts are available online. I have never looked because I have them. There are programs that will figure springs for you though with just basic inputs, including for replacement springs.

Yes, increasing wire size and length will get you increased cycle life. In your example, both of those springs have a cycle life of just over 10k cycles. An equivalent matched pair of springs would be a pair of .262-2-32 and would have a cycle life of about 10k cycles. Going to a pair of .273-2-36.5 would have a cycle life of about 15k cycles, and .283-2-46 would be approximately 30-35k cycles at a quick glance.

 

[gregs]

Not sure if those charts are available online. I have never looked because I have them. There are programs that will figure springs for you though with just basic inputs, including for replacement springs.

Yes, increasing wire size and length will get you increased cycle life. In your example, both of those springs have a cycle life of just over 10k cycles. An equivalent matched pair of springs would be a pair of .262-2-32 and would have a cycle life of about 10k cycles. Going to a pair of .273-2-36.5 would have a cycle life of about 15k cycles, and .283-2-46 would be approximately 30-35k cycles at a quick glance.

I guess I would also need to look at the availability and cost to upgrade to the bigger springs.

Clopay emailed me back there part number and sizes that they say it uses.

7000191. #2 Green LW .243 x 2 x 30.5
7000216 #5 Orange RW .273 x 2 x 38

I emailed back asking if they could tell me the doors weight, but havent gotten a reply back yet.

Interesting that they are slightly different than the originals. Also why is the RW spring always the bigger one?

Ideally it would be easier if they where both the same. Thanks

 

[gregs]

I am waiting on them to figure it out now. The numbers on the door indicate its a 20 x 8 sold 3 states away. When its really a 16 x 7. So this is probably why the springs are different.

 

[gregs]

Clopay got it figured out. For some reason the PID # & Serial# tag is incorrect for my door. But I found another number and with the description and picture the where able to find it in there system and provide me with the correct numbers for future use.

It does have the correct springs installed and they have a listed weight of 369 #’s.

With the weight quoted would the springs you listed above still be correct for the application?

 

[Pen & Wrench]

jstrode, you obviously really know a lot about this, I am really impressed that you could calculate the weight of the door so closely!

 

[gregs]

Not sure if those charts are available online. I have never looked because I have them. There are programs that will figure springs for you though with just basic inputs, including for replacement springs.

Yes, increasing wire size and length will get you increased cycle life. In your example, both of those springs have a cycle life of just over 10k cycles. An equivalent matched pair of springs would be a pair of .262-2-32 and would have a cycle life of about 10k cycles. Going to a pair of .273-2-36.5 would have a cycle life of about 15k cycles, and .283-2-46 would be approximately 30-35k cycles at a quick glance.

Would those recommendations still hold true with Clopay saying the door weighs 369 #'s?

I also see where some companies claim up to 20K cycles even though its the exact same size. I can understand a bigger spring having increased life replacing a smaller spring. The main difference they show is that its Electrophoretic coating that raises its cycle life to 16-20K vs 10K for the standard spring. Just not sure how they can make this claim for the exact same size?

I like the idea of getting a longer service life out of the spring, so I would probably upgrade to the bigger springs.

The other thing I wonder about is what kind of springs they use in commercial rollup doors inside the drum. We have 8- 12x16 doors at work that go up and down 5 days a week multiple times and are over 30 years old and none have had a spring failure.

Thanks

 

[JJ Quick]

Not sure if those charts are available online. I have never looked because I have them. There are programs that will figure springs for you though with just basic inputs, including for replacement springs.

Yes, increasing wire size and length will get you increased cycle life. In your example, both of those springs have a cycle life of just over 10k cycles. An equivalent matched pair of springs would be a pair of .262-2-32 and would have a cycle life of about 10k cycles. Going to a pair of .273-2-36.5 would have a cycle life of about 15k cycles, and .283-2-46 would be approximately 30-35k cycles at a quick glance.

WOW!

 

[jstroede]

Would those recommendations still hold true with Clopay saying the door weighs 369 #'s?

I also see where some companies claim up to 20K cycles even though its the exact same size. I can understand a bigger spring having increased life replacing a smaller spring. The main difference they show is that its Electrophoretic coating that raises its cycle life to 16-20K vs 10K for the standard spring. Just not sure how they can make this claim for the exact same size?

I like the idea of getting a longer service life out of the spring, so I would probably upgrade to the bigger springs.

The other thing I wonder about is what kind of springs they use in commercial rollup doors inside the drum. We have 8- 12x16 doors at work that go up and down 5 days a week multiple times and are over 30 years old and none have had a spring failure.

Thanks

At that weight, a pair of .283-2-45 would be about 25k cycles and .273-2-38 would be about 15k cycles.

I have never seen any coating that would extend cycle life like that. Galvanized springs will act differently than oil tempered, but they have issues and I don't like them. They require much more frequent adjustment. Adding turns significantly reduces cycle life.

I have no experience with e-coated springs, but I have never tested any painted or powdercoated or lubed spring that lasted any longer than a traditional oil tempered spring.

John

 

[jstroede]

By the way I had a typo in one of those previous posts. That should have been .273-2-38.5, not 36.5.

John

 

[royalegaragedoors]

That's interesting! It's unusual for a Clopay garage door to have mismatched torsion springs from the factory. Some specialized Clopay doors might require different springs for specific design elements, like insulation or wind load resistance.

 

[gregs]

I thought it was odd also and thats why I went thru the trouble to contact and verify with Clopay. But I also found in there literature about springs a statement basically saying it would be more common to find 2 different springs and more of a coincidence to find a matched pair on a door.

I am going with a matched pair to replace them so that the cycle life will be the same and upgrade to the larger ones since its not much more expensive.

 

[gregs]

At that weight, a pair of .283-2-45 would be about 25k cycles and .273-2-38 would be about 15k cycles.

I have never seen any coating that would extend cycle life like that. Galvanized springs will act differently than oil tempered, but they have issues and I don't like them. They require much more frequent adjustment. Adding turns significantly reduces cycle life.

I have no experience with e-coated springs, but I have never tested any painted or powdercoated or lubed spring that lasted any longer than a traditional oil tempered spring.

John

Thanks for the help! One last question I have is about the actual weight of the upgraded spring size. I saw reference to a spring weighing 20#'s+ should have a additional support brackets on the shaft to keep it from bending. the .283-2-45 look to be just a little over 20#'s. Is this something I should be concerned about and add? I may just drop back to the .273-2-38.

 

[jstroede]

Thanks for the help! One last question I have is about the actual weight of the upgraded spring size. I saw reference to a spring weighing 20#'s+ should have a additional support brackets on the shaft to keep it from bending. the .283-2-45 look to be just a little over 20#'s. Is this something I should be concerned about and add? I may just drop back to the .273-2-38.

That depends on what your shaft and bearing setup is. What gauge is the shaft (assuming hollow)? How many center bearing brackets? Center bearings are cheap regardless.

 

[gregs]

That depends on what your shaft and bearing setup is. What gauge is the shaft (assuming hollow)? How many center bearing brackets? Center bearings are cheap regardless.

It is a hollow shaft but I dont know what gauge it is. I am not at home so I cant put a caliper on it to measure it. It has one center support bracket with one bearing I am guessing. Then just the typical bearings at each end next to the drum. Would it be worthwhile to add an additional center bracket and bearing? The other support brackets I saw where called "spring anchor brackets / freeway idler kit" and installed near the center of each half shaft.

What would you do for your own or family door?

 

[jstroede]

So I have found that Service Spring is marketing springs with extended cycle life, but there aren't many details. I might reach out to them just to see what's up. To me, unless it is basically a no cost feature, it wouldn't be worth it. Frankly going from 10k to 15k cycles in most instances only costs like $5.

Literally bearing plates are a couple bucks each. I mean I would add if I thought it needed it, but if it were like 10 ga shaft, I probably wouldn't think it would need it. It is important to keep the bearings inline though. They are cheap bearings, and will wear out fast if not aligned.

Bearings brackets are generally sized by distance from the wall they locate the shaft. Common for your size of door would be 3 3/8" or 4 3/8", or there are universal types which are slotted. Any of them will work correctly (have to make sure universals aren't too long that door would hit) as long as they can locate bearing inline with the others on the shaft.

 

[gregs]

So I have found that Service Spring is marketing springs with extended cycle life, but there aren't many details. I might reach out to them just to see what's up. To me, unless it is basically a no cost feature, it wouldn't be worth it. Frankly going from 10k to 15k cycles in most instances only costs like $5.

Literally bearing plates are a couple bucks each. I mean I would add if I thought it needed it, but if it were like 10 ga shaft, I probably wouldn't think it would need it. It is important to keep the bearings inline though. They are cheap bearings, and will wear out fast if not aligned.

Bearings brackets are generally sized by distance from the wall they locate the shaft. Common for your size of door would be 3 3/8" or 4 3/8", or there are universal types which are slotted. Any of them will work correctly (have to make sure universals aren't too long that door would hit) as long as they can locate bearing inline with the others on the shaft.

I had been looking online for a place to order them from and as usual there seems to be a lot of cloudy information from companies. It also looks like there are a lot of companies selling springs made in China. From my best measurements I believe the shaft is just 16 gauge. Also looking at the area around the shaft it would require adding additional blocking to give the bearings something to mount to. I think at the end of the day I will stick with the .273 spring and find US made ones.

 

[gregs]

That being said, the number of turns should not be different. With standard 400-8 drums, you shouldn't have had only 6.25 turns. That would basically mean you were back winding the spring after it got back to it's relaxed point. A 7' door with standard 400-8 drums should require approximately 7.5 turns, give or take. Adding an extra quarter turn or so to one spring is a find tuning method, but having them vary that much isn't good.

When you wind the springs do you start counting in the dead loose position? Usually I could turn the cone 1 or 2 qtr turns by hand before using the rods. I saw a video where they didnt start counting until after they twisted the spring by hand first.

 

[jstroede]

When you wind the springs do you start counting in the dead loose position? Usually I could turn the cone 1 or 2 qtr turns by hand before using the rods. I saw a video where they didnt start counting until after they twisted the spring by hand first.

Yes start from a relaxed state.

 

[darrowco]

I had been looking online for a place to order them from and as usual there seems to be a lot of cloudy information from companies. It also looks like there are a lot of companies selling springs made in China. From my best measurements I believe the shaft is just 16 gauge. Also looking at the area around the shaft it would require adding additional blocking to give the bearings something to mount to. I think at the end of the day I will stick with the .273 spring and find US made ones.

I bought from https://www.expressgaragedoorparts.com/ recently because they looked to have a track record, all sizes in stock. Worked as expected, springs (plus free cables) came in a couple of days to the west coast. I have small springs, cost was under $120 for the pair.

 

[gregs]

Yes start from a relaxed state.

Just wanted to say thanks for the help. Ended up ordering a matched pair of the .273 x 38.5” springs. Initially wound them to 7 1/2 turns each. The door was a little light and would not hold itself at the 1/2 open position and took slightly more force to close. Took out a 1/4 turn on each spring and that got it about perfect.

Do the springs “seat in” after a period of time? Should I detach the opener and check the door balance after a period of time?

 

[jstroede]

Unless they are galvanized springs, you should be good to go.

Glad it worked out for you!

John