Garage ethics question

[jimexcursion]

Here's my dilemma. My vehicle is in the shop for work. In doing the work, the mechani busted 2 taps. Should I be responsible to pay the labor for removing them? If its only 15 minutes, I don't care but I think its safe to say it will be far more than that. I have worked in garages for over 5 years but always for a private fleet so I have never run into this. A friend works at this particular garage. And tells me they don't work on flat rate. I know the garage is a business and is there to make money. I understand that and I'm not out to get something for nothing. I just don't know how this usually goes. The work needs to get done but just don't know how much of this will be on my dime.

 

[firebox40dash5]

D) Not enough information.

How/why did he break the taps off?

 

[tkonetzke]

What was the tech doing the work? I guess the question is what was your vehicle in the shop for? I understand where it could go both ways. If he is trying to repair damage components caused by neglect then you should pay. If he was just in a rush and f-ed up then you shouldnt. I say case by case and need more info to say for sure

 

[srmofo]

I got to ask what was he doing to break off not 1 but 2 taps?

 

[joecon]

You pay no matter what they tell you you paid for the time it takes to fix your
car if he was fixing your car and he broke the tap he didn't do it on purpus it was an
acedent who else would pay.

 

[theknurl]

What was the tech doing the work? I guess the question is what was your vehicle in the shop for? I understand where it could go both ways. If he is trying to repair damaged components caused by neglect then you should pay. If he was just in a rush and f-ed up then you shouldn't. I say case by case and need more info to say for sure

NO way, the repair estimate must have listed the damaged components......its a signed contract, any changes must be signed off
that the hack broke his taps......thats his problem

suppose he broke his torque wrench too???? its not the customer's fault

i started turning wrenches in '59 for money......yes, working on high end sports cars

 

[BrokewrenchLS1]

I wouldn't pay; but then, there's really no way to say "This amount of time was used to remove the taps, so I'm not paying for that part." If the tech broke his impact gun working on my car, I wouldn't pay for the time it takes him to find/buy/borrow another gun, right? In theory, no, in reality...

 

[Givl Reggin]

Should I be responsible to pay the labor for removing them?

No..

 

[jimexcursion]

Replacing broken exhaust manifold studs on V10 Ford Excursion. 1st tap broken on rear lower hole on driver's side. 2nd tap broken on upper front hole on driver's side. I have been doing this long enough to know things go wrong so I get it. In my shop where I work for a fleet, it is different because 1 division of the company is paying another. We're just shuffling money around. We don't have a customer.

 

[jimexcursion]

I am not suggesting the shop owner is trying to get more money out of me. He may cover it. I don't know yet. I know everyone who works for him and they are all extremely honest people.

 

[jetmech09]

The shop should pay. No question about it. Taps don't just break when used in the proper manner. That time is on them.

 

[Roots]

I wouldn't pay; but then, there's really no way to say "This amount of time was used to remove the taps, so I'm not paying for that part." If the tech broke his impact gun working on my car, I wouldn't pay for the time it takes him to find/buy/borrow another gun, right? In theory, no, in reality...

That's my thought, on how things actually go...

It's an interesting question though.

If the mechanic is working flat rate, he pays for mistakes like that by having less billed hours. You're receiving the benefit of not being on the hook if he makes a mistake or the job takes longer.

By paying hourly for the work, you're taking the benefit of the mechanic beating the flat rate... but asking not to take the risk if he doesn't...

I've no idea what the ethical answer is, I'd likely toss the guy a twenty as a tip though. Depending on the job and if the taps were broken by incompetence or not, which could admittedly be hard to judge. Out of curiosity, how did you even find out he broke two taps while doing the job? It's all mute of course, if you were quoted a fixed price.

 

[jimexcursion]

A friend works there bit isn't the one doing the work. He called me and told me what was going on.

 

[Heavy Metal Doctor]

Unless they told you they will bill actual time and materials on some odd job they could not give a standard estimate on, then breaking taps and the time wasted cleaning up that mess is on them.

 

[Lotek]

If they aren't charging you flat rate, how did they estimate the job? What's the law in Maine on how estimates are handled? Two broken taps or two broken easyouts?

 

[fourjeepin]

As the others have said, you shouldn't have to pay. And the best way to get a broken stud out of a manifold is a welder.

 

[ATTappman]

Maybe this is why the whole flat rate labor system was invented.

Why in the world did they even tell you about it? Why tell a customer about a mistake and then ask him to pay for it? Is this considered a smart business practice somewhere? Only doctors can get away with that, but their mistakes are simply relabeled "complications" that arose from some defect in your anatomy. Think of it that way - your Excursion had to have a minor procedure, and there was an unexpected complication. It's bones were so brittle they broke two taps off in them.

 

[pfarber]

Most shops will charge book time for repairs. If they do it faster, they make more money, if they go slower, the lose billable hours... and you should be working under a written and signed service agreement.

Taps are expendable items... they wear, how are you to know how much life was left in them.. were they sharp or on their last leg?

Are you sure they didn't mean EASY OUTS? Not that it matters.

Bottom line its not your fault. Examine the bill CLOSELY with what your estimate says and if they add on extra tell them you want to see parts/broken tools.

***** that a mechanic broke his tools... but as some have said... you just don't break a tap... they are made to cut metal. You can abuse them, and that's not your fault.

 

[Heavy Metal Doctor]

Maybe I'm outta line here, but IMO how the mechanic is paid should have nothing to do with the bill the customer gets.

 

[Brad54]

If he broke a part on your car taking it off, should you have to pay for that screw-up too?

Sorry, but exhaust manifold bolts aren't something a mechanic has never encountered before. He should have known what to expect, and should have been competent enough to handle it.

He wasn't.

You shouldn't have to pay for his learning curve.

-Brad

 

[firebox40dash5]

The shop should pay. No question about it. Taps don't just break when used in the proper manner. That time is on them.

I'm pretty much going with ^ this. If your stuff was screwed up beyond comprehension and required some freaky Jedi tricks to fix, I'd say be prepared to give them something, albeit probably not paying full rate for the actual time it took.

I'm not even sure how you'd break off 2 taps doing manifold studs, other than doing it wrong. That's his problem, not yours... hell, the guy should be glad they're paying him hourly, or he'd be spending a few days to get a few hours' pay.

 

[tkonetzke]

Unless they told you they will bill actual time and materials on some odd job they could not give a standard estimate on, then breaking taps and the time wasted cleaning up that mess is on them.

This is what I was getting at. If your paying time and materials then thats what you. Otherwise you pay the quoted price

 

[Steevo]

Replacing broken exhaust manifold studs on V10 Ford Excursion. 1st tap broken on rear lower hole on driver's side. 2nd tap broken on upper front hole on driver's side. I have been doing this long enough to know things go wrong so I get it. In my shop where I work for a fleet, it is different because 1 division of the company is paying another. We're just shuffling money around. We don't have a customer.

Never fall into the trap of believing that you don't have a customer.
Even if all paychecks come from one office, you should be able to identify who your customer(s) is(are) and whose customer you are. This is the root of understanding customer service.

 

[ZRX61]

You're not responsible for paying for some morons mistake... or in this case, 2 mistakes

 

[mtkst19]

i doubt this was a mistake, but rather a poor initial quote. ford v8 exhaust manifolds are a ***** job. Here in western pa, they all end up leaking because the studs or the cast manifolds themselves break or both happen. The last one i did, i had to drill out/extract about half of the bolts from the heads.

If you live in the rust belt, this is a pita job. Going rate around here is 1k-1200 range for this w/ new manifolds. mind you book time is 4 hours warranty time/ 4.7 customer pay time. Manifolds aftermarket were around 200 for the pair. Everyone knows they **** and as such, the rate is pretty much double book time.

If they under bid it then they screwed themselves and hopefully you have pitty on their souls. I wouldn't pay for the broken tools. yet the time if the breakage was not a direct result of the tech but rather somehthing else, i can see getting billed for.

They should have quoted the job as it is x amount of hours if everything goes smoothly. yet if we run into issues getting the broken studs out of the head then it may run into more labor.

 

[DandDMachine]

Like has been said several times, a good sharp tap in a properly sized hole shouldnt break. I have broken several taps in my days. I learned real quick what that feeling is before it breaks. If you have to work to hard you better stop and figure out why. This is one of those learning experiences. It makes you better in the long run.

If I broke a tap off in a customers project I wouldnt dream of asking them to pay for it. I would fix it, and buy some new taps.

 

[mtkst19]

i find it hard to believe a tap is stuck in the head. Im thinking it is an easy out/ left hand bit or something else. Yet if in deed they are snapping off taps, then i agree that is user error.

 

[Murphy4570]

If it's a Ford 5.4 manifold job, I can understand it. Those little 8mm studs love to break off. Removing them is a PITA.

You can easily break a tap if you aren't taking your time.

That job is around $600 per side around here. Usually takes 5-6 hours to do, sometimes all day.

 

[lilscorpion]

Seems an exhaust bolt has a decent chance of breaking. If they commonly break and need to be drilled/tapped, it stands to reason that the drilling and tapping would be included somehow in the price. A shops gotta cover consumables to make money. Seems that would be a tough job to quote fixed rate.

 

[ra42mario]

My repair agreements all state their is an extra charge for broken bolts and or parts that are beyond our control. In Northeast Ohio, you will break a bolt nearly every week. The shop can't afford to pay out of pocket for the rust on a customers vehicle. We charge the hourly rate to extract broken bolts (taps included). I am fair about it and eat some time for the customers sake, but not much.

Book time is for perfect condition cars (ie brand new). It does not account for a 1994 Honda Accord with rusted bolts on the undercarriage where you can't even make out the threads.

 

[rodm1]

You pay no matter what they tell you you paid for the time it takes to fix your
car if he was fixing your car and he broke the tap he didn't do it on purpus it was an
acedent who else would pay.

It's at the shop, I agree you will pay like it or not. I don't think you probable should but thats not the way it works.

I try to do everything myself to avoid this stuff.

 

[camarotoolman]

Were the taps from HF?

 

[4x4gearhead]

I wouldnt pay, I use taps all the time and very rarely break them. I find that 9 times out of 10 I did something stupid, or got impatient and thats why they broke. Especially cleaning bolt holes, let alone cutting new threads.

 

[jimexcursion]

Initial estimate was $350-$400. Came out at $520.16. He did take some labor off. **** happens. Pick your battles. It runs much quieter and needed to get fixed. Estimates are just educated guesses. I am glad to have it back. I don't have a place to do it, and quite honestly, I hate working on my own vehicles. Thanks for all the input. I have been quoted $500 a side in the past and some of you have said that as well so a hair over $500 is tolerable.

 

[Danglerb]

I try to do what I can myself, but my wife has this crazy notion she should have a car to drive when she wants, so in practice I use three shops, and I follow the same rule for all of them, I'd rather ***** about prices than the quality of the work. I pay whats on the invoice.

 

[Toolhorder]

He broke a tap OR an easy out?

 

[aussiek2000]

Why the hell would you pay? He broke his tools while doing a job. His fault, not yours. Thats like saying I dropped something on your windshield, now you have to pay for it.

 

[skyking]

You either quote those jobs high or quote them "problem free" and leave the door open for an adjustment. I always quote high.

 

[noslocars]

I was quoted 300 bucks for a job I couldn't do because my car broke down while I was on vacation. It turned into a real pain for the shop and they spent a whole day fixing my car. When it was finished, the owner told me he lost his **** on this job but would stick by the 300 dollar quote. (250 was just in parts) He said it wouldn't happen again now that he knows what the job entails. I wish I lived in the state because I would of brought any work I needed done to him just for the ethics he showed me. I think the shop should of stuck with the quoted price unless there was a disclaimer made about if problems arise. Just my 2 cents.

 

[justanengineer]

Book time is for perfect condition cars (ie brand new). It does not account for a 1994 Honda Accord with rusted bolts on the undercarriage where you can't even make out the threads.

Sorry, but youre wrong. Ive been on both sides of this work as an engineer determining repair time and as a tech manually validating every task within a technical manual. Book time has a significant safety factor built in so that the average tech should be able to complete the task in 70-90% of the time given, and does account for rust, broken bolts, and other issues.

Estimates are that simply bc even the best technician cant realistically predict everything necessary to repair a vehicle under all circumstances, not to cover technician error in the repair process itself. IMO the OP got screwed.