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Garage ethics question

jjjrmx5

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Dec 30, 2010
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Location
Cincinnati, OH
Most shops will charge book time for repairs. If they do it faster, they make more money, if they go slower, the lose billable hours... and you should be working under a written and signed service agreement.

Taps are expendable items... they wear, how are you to know how much life was left in them.. were they sharp or on their last leg?

Yes.

And yes.

Bad/ unknowledgable wrenchers or inexperience leads to mistakes.

Unless a special arrangement, book time dictates the time of the task, estimate and final bill.

If they needed extra parts , fine.

If the ******* broke his Snap-On screwdriver tip off while removing fasteners, do I, the customer, pay for that tool too?

Unless paying for an ongoing time and materials arrangement (and even then , tools are not really part of the materials equation unless very rare specialty tools are involved), then the broken taps and time to fix what ya broke is not part of my bill.

Absurd to even bring it up.
 
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Tim-Bob

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Nov 13, 2010
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Sorry, but youre wrong. Ive been on both sides of this work as an engineer determining repair time and as a tech manually validating every task within a technical manual. Book time has a significant safety factor built in so that the average tech should be able to complete the task in 70-90% of the time given, and does account for rust, broken bolts, and other issues.

Estimates are that simply bc even the best technician cant realistically predict everything necessary to repair a vehicle under all circumstances, not to cover technician error in the repair process itself. IMO the OP got screwed.

So you're saying that broken bolts/studs/seizure are factored in to book times and warranty times? Granted, book/warranty times can usually be met with some experience. If it is an unusual or "new" job, it becomes difficult. If there are seized, broken or otherwise compromised fasteners, it likely will be impossible. Only in some mechanical/engineering utopia do these times cover these possibilities, and to suggest that they do is absurd.
 

GeneralDisorder

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Sep 20, 2012
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Sorry, but youre wrong. Ive been on both sides of this work as an engineer determining repair time and as a tech manually validating every task within a technical manual. Book time has a significant safety factor built in so that the average tech should be able to complete the task in 70-90% of the time given, and does account for rust, broken bolts, and other issues.

Estimates are that simply bc even the best technician cant realistically predict everything necessary to repair a vehicle under all circumstances, not to cover technician error in the repair process itself. IMO the OP got screwed.

I agree and disagree - the published repair times cannot take into account some of the rust-belt type of problems that can occur - case in point:

Customer calls me and asks how much to do a wheel bearing on a 2001 Subaru Impreza Outback Sport. I tell him $180 if the hub is usable (pressed in hub) and $240 if it's not. Now - I live and work in the Portland, Oregon area and rust is not something we see a lot of. Owner did not bother to mention the car was a rolling tetnis epidemic :willy_nil

The car shows up hours later on a flat-bed because the wheel locked up and nearly fell off - REALLY bad bearing :lol_hitti.

Nothing comes apart. NOTHING. Ended up having to swap out the entire trailing arm assembly, knuckle, control arms, axle, etc with used parts from a wrecking yard - which I couldn't get till the next day - the guy's car is at my shop overnight and I spend many more hours on it than a simple wheel bearing job.

The book rate is a guideline. It cannot be used as the incontrovertible word of god about how long a repair should take. Every car is different and quite a few of them shouldn't even be on the road. You can't tell me that a book rate published when the car was basically new applies when the car is 15 - 20 years old and has fist-sized rust holes in the rockers and fenders. And as a mechanic it's not my job to keep up on rust prevention, repair, or maintenance - I am reactionary and can only respond to what I'm *asked* to do. It's almost as if the car has left the realm of "book rate" repairs and entered the world of auto collision repair. It's one thing to change a control arm on a car but it's another to change the same part when the car has been smacked into a curb hard enough to crumple the control arm and break capture nut welds in the frame.

GD
 
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ryan t

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Nov 12, 2012
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Location
Bristol, Va.
Prior to my current job I was a service writer for a large dealership and I'd say 75-80% of the time our guys could get the job done in less than or just at book time. Things went wrong and some things took longer, sure, but for every job that took 115% of book time they would do 5 jobs that only took them 80% book time.

As for the original poster's question, at the dealership I worked at, you would not be responsible for the cost of the mechanics tools. If during the install a stud or something was broken, generally the customer would be responsible for small parts like that, but no additional labor would be charged for having to replace that stud.
 

GeneralDisorder

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Sep 20, 2012
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Prior to my current job I was a service writer for a large dealership and I'd say 80-85% of the time our guys could get the job done in less than or just at book time. Things went wrong and some things took longer, sure, but for every job that took 115% of book time they would do 5 jobs that only took them 80% book time.

As for the original poster's question, at the dealership I worked at......

90% of what dealerships work on are late-model cars and trucks. Sure they see the occasional bucket but it's far outweighed by the newer stuff that *can* be done at 80% of book time.

Not so for us independents. I'm just a small shop and I take care of my neighbors and my community. Including fixing things that a dealer can and will simply turn away with an enormous price tag. My world is not made of the 1 of 6 jobs taking 80% of book time. Many of the cars I work on are in poor shape and a higher percentage of jobs take more than book time to complete due to condition of the car.

GD
 
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jjjrmx5

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Cincinnati, OH
Seized fasteners are not a new thing.

That is why they make induction heaters, propane and mapp gas torches as well as acetalene torches.

Just because YOU have not figured out how to effieiently remove an old fastener does no make it MY problem.

Example: you get your tires changed at a **** *** lube shop and they run the nuts or bolts up to 200 ft/lbs.

Getting them off by a second shop while doing brake work shears one off. So who foots the bill?

The customer? The ****** lube shop? The guy doing the brake work?

I realize it's a grey area and anomalies happen, but getting most old bolts and nuts off is a matter of heat, finesse, and using the right tool.

Sure, you may need to replace the fasteners (and charge the customer for new ones), but it's a f&*(*&g car. Not the space shuttle. Work on heavy equipment, big rigs or military vehicles and it just a factor of thinking thru of the best process to get things apart.

Every corner wrencher is in such a hurry to get things done they forget the cerebral part of what their job entails.

x1000.
 
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RCStocker

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Aug 12, 2012
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Indiana, California, Australia
NO way, the repair estimate must have listed the damaged components......its a signed contract, any changes must be signed off
that the hack broke his taps......thats his problem

suppose he broke his torque wrench too???? its not the customer's fault

i started turning wrenches in '59 for money......yes, working on high end sports cars

It depends on what kind of garage it is. Many people have a full garage where they do repairs in on their own property. You see this in small country towns all over the country.

A written estimate or quote does not always hold.
If there was a hard spot in the metal it could be easy to break 2 taps. My first job in a machine shop was drilling and tapping over a thousand holes a day. It can happen. I was doing small parts.

The hourly charge is what you agreeded to pay. If the mechanic breaks parts that is his problems and should not charge for the parts.

It is hard to say. As others have stated more info is needed.
Some people try to drive the tap in. You need to back it off every half of a turn to break the metal loose. then every couple of turns it should be blown out. If you don't do this it is eays to break taps because it binds. Then If he did not use taping oil it will also cause the tap to bind.
My guess it that the mechanic was not esperienced enough with the process of taping. I would not fight over it. I just would not go back to the that garage.
 

ra42mario

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Sep 5, 2011
Messages
116
Sorry, but youre wrong. Ive been on both sides of this work as an engineer determining repair time and as a tech manually validating every task within a technical manual. Book time has a significant safety factor built in so that the average tech should be able to complete the task in 70-90% of the time given, and does account for rust, broken bolts, and other issues.

Estimates are that simply bc even the best technician cant realistically predict everything necessary to repair a vehicle under all circumstances, not to cover technician error in the repair process itself. IMO the OP got screwed.

I hate to bust your pride, but I am not wrong. I have labor guides (Alldata, Chiltons) that are digital (current), and labor guides that are physical books from years back. The labor times have not changed. If that truck was brand new, the exhaust studs would not be snapping off flush in the head, they do when it is several years old, however, the book time has no been adjusted for age even in current guides. I have had this discussion before with my regional sales manager from AllData who previously held a publishing position with the same company.

As a shop owner, I am not financially responsible for any of the repair of a customers vehicle. Example, our shop did brake lines on a 2001 Silverado w/ ABS the other week. These full size GM trucks are notorious for rotten lines, and are one of the most difficult vehicles to replace the lines in due to the placement of the abs on the frame rail (the ABS to rear line being the most difficult). I quoted the customer $750+ tax to replace all the lines, and use my $4,000 investment (scanner) to bleed them (AKA, DIYer generally cannot do this job). There is no book time for brake lines.

During the bleeding process, BOTH of the rear caliper bleeding screws broke flush. This is after we heated them, and they would not budge. We removed the calipers (extra, unforseen labor). I purchased a kit ($120+) that fits my air hammer ($310). This kit has a pin that is inserted in the air hammer, then inserted in the bleeder screw. You activate the air hammer, and the vibration generally loosens the rust bond on the bleeder and you can turn it on with a wrench. It destroys the bleeder, but saves the caliper. It did not save this caliper. The bleeders still busted. Needs new calipers. $45 a side.

As a shop owner, I certainly do not eat this part. They are not needing replaced due to our negligence. My mechanic did everything possible to remove the bleeders, and they still snapped. The customers bill was charged $150 extra. $90 for the calipers (45 a piece) and $60 for the R&R of the calipers and the shop time spent trying to remove them. To sum it up, while we were waiting 90 minutes for the calipers to arrive, my mechanic is sitting still while I am still paying him. There is nothing for him to do. His lift has a customers rusted our truck on it. Our labor rate is $60/hr and I book at a minimum 8 hours of work a day for our mechanics. This customers problem cost the shop $90 just in idle time.

The customers bill was $900. They understood the issue, and signed an agreement before hand that we are not responsible for ANY broken bolts or part due to removal. I charge the hourly rate to extract broken bolts and so does every other profitable shop. Sure the customer can complain about the extra charge, but the difference is in 10 years my shop will still be around to serve customers, and the shops managing incorrectly will not.
 
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Lotek

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Dec 9, 2007
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9,098
Location
Los Angeles, Ca.
Sorry, but youre wrong. Ive been on both sides of this work as an engineer determining repair time and as a tech manually validating every task within a technical manual. Book time has a significant safety factor built in so that the average tech should be able to complete the task in 70-90% of the time given, and does account for rust, broken bolts, and other issues.Estimates are that simply bc even the best technician cant realistically predict everything necessary to repair a vehicle under all circumstances, not to cover technician error in the repair process itself. IMO the OP got screwed.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: Mfg's have been cutting book time for years, it's to the point where there are jobs that pay .3 or .4 that require a road test after repair, diagnosis pays .3, sure you can get olh, but sometimes the hoops you have to jump through are ridiculous, it pays 8 hours to replace the egr cooler bypass valve, the job just can't be done the way SI describes. The cab has to be lifted for access to a couple of bolts that are supposed to be torqued during reassembly, just no way around it. SI says remove the transmission and exhaust system, replacing the EGR cooler pays .8 more and it's the exact same job, the assembly is removed and disassembled on the bench.:wtf: Some jobs, service information and labor times are just an engineer's crack dream.

Sounds like the o/p got a fair deal, extra work = extra money. $100 extra for a couple of broken bolts is more than reasonable regardless of whether the tech was having a bad day and broke something. Just curious, did the shop call about the broken taps or the o/p's buddy who happened to work there?
 
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