Garage Fire Sprinkler System

[Jazz]

I'm working on a garage remodel along with the house remodel. I'm thinking of adding a wet (water) fire sprinkler system, just a simple one. Since it's not required I don't think it needs to be professionally installed its just for my peace of mind. I've read the code requirements and for a simple residential application not much is required.

1. the connection cannot have any valves between it and the city service.
2. there must be a backflow preventer to prevent contamination of the potable water.
3. no electronic monitoring is required.

My plan was to put four sprinkler heads mounted in the ceiling pendulum style (facing down) and also to include a valve for testing/draining. I understand that it wouldn't be a certified system but I also think since it is not required by any code what would make it any different than adding any other water usage point? The sprinkler set point would be 212 degrees.

Note, the reason I would want to do this is that there is living space, including a bedroom above the garage.

 

[Cuda]

Where is the P.O.C.?
I'm not sure I understand why no valves. Every system I've seen has a shut-off valve with a tamper switch on it.

 

[mrb]

check your local codes. you may not have to have them, but once you do they most likely have to meet applicable codes.

 

[mrb]

next question: do you have the required fire seperation (with no penetrations) between the garage and living space? Self closing rated door?

 

[Frank The Plumber]

You would have to use a dry isolation system for this. If you freeze that system you will be ruined. A dry line keeps a pressure load of air on the heads, it will still trigger and dump water on the fire but it will not have water in the lines prone to freezing. A little more complex to use but worth it.

 

[Jazz]

The garage is also to be heated and cooled so freezing, while a possibility, is very unlikely. I'll research the dry system though.

Why would this system, plumbed in SC40 CPVC blazemaster pipe be any more prone to freezing than the copper pipe in my crawlspace? I would agree that freezing could have a significant negative impact but in that case the same applies to the rest of the pipes in the house. If I lived farther north or the area wasn't temperature controlled I think this might be more of an issue.

 

[Jazz]

Where is the P.O.C.?
I'm not sure I understand why no valves. Every system I've seen has a shut-off valve with a tamper switch on it.

Yes, a shut off/drain valve is allowed. Has to be a directional type and should be locked open during operation. No gate type or other flow metering valves are allowed however.

 

[OccupantRJ]

Non-toxic antifreeze is used in wet sprinkler lines when exposed to possible freezing, such as overhead on docks, etc. This is another reason for a back flow prevention device.

 

[OccupantRJ]

You might also want to check with your insurance company on this one, to be sure you would be properly covered in the event of a fire, using a "home brew" system, not professionally installed.

 

[Jazz]

You might also want to check with your insurance company on this one, to be sure you would be properly covered in the event of a fire, using a "home brew" system, not professionally installed.

Honestly if there is a circumstance where the system actually needs to activate and does, I'm thinking I'll have more worries than what my insurance company might think about this. I'd be more worried if it failed to go off at all which is the important thing. As long as it's separated by a proper backflow preventer and there is no danger of personal injury what's the difference between what I am trying to do here and having a sink in the garage other than risk of water damage if it goes off accidentally?

 

[V-10 Killer]

You would have to use a dry isolation system for this. If you freeze that system you will be ruined. A dry line keeps a pressure load of air on the heads, it will still trigger and dump water on the fire but it will not have water in the lines prone to freezing. A little more complex to use but worth it.

We use these systems a lot at work. Ours has make-up air tied to it to make up for any imperfect seals in the system. If you were to lose your air supply (probably more likely in residential than industrial settings), the system would activate.

Beyond that, I agree, a frozen pipe could cause a lot of property damage.

 

[Steve from Socal]

Honestly if there is a circumstance where the system actually needs to activate and does, I'm thinking I'll have more worries than what my insurance company might think about this. I'd be more worried if it failed to go off at all which is the important thing. As long as it's separated by a proper backflow preventer and there is no danger of personal injury what's the difference between what I am trying to do here and having a sink in the garage other than risk of water damage if it goes off accidentally?

Well, the worst case is someone dies. Even approved systems have issues. Here in L.A. a fireman was killed by a collapsing roof in a house fire a couple months ago. The house was new and has a sprinkler system. Reports are that a sprinkler pipe melted above the ceiling and flooded it.

While plastic pipe may be approved for residential sprinkler systems I don't personally think has a place in a critical system like this. That said; as previously noted once you install a system even if it is not required you are bound by code in your installation. If you bootleg a sprinkler system and anything happens in your house with regard to water of fire damage you will have a very rough time with insurance. Also the liability of somebody being injured by parts of the system or failure would be lost.

Steve

 

[Thruxton]

How about a dry chemical suspended system like the ones Griot's Garage sells?

 

[jwillis]

You might also want to check with your insurance company on this one, to be sure you would be properly covered in the event of a fire, using a "home brew" system, not professionally installed.

You might also want to check with your insurance company about flood/water insurance. There are two kinds you know: Water coming from the outside of the building and water coming from the inside of the building.........hmmmmmm........come to think of it- might be better to just hang a couple of fire extinguishers and forget the other stuff. Non- flammable drywall between the house and garage with firestoping 2X4s between the studs and a remote fire detector attached to your ADT alarm system...........

 

[59 wagon man]

check out uponer plumbing systems they offer a combination fire sprinkler/domestic water pex system maybe just what your looking for. one thing to remember residentials sprinklers are not designed to save the building or put out a fire. just to give you some extra time to get out

 

[ratdoggy]

How about a dry chemical suspended system like the ones Griot's Garage sells?

Thinking of that too.

 

[nevrdun]

really don't understand where some of you guys are coming from. The OP wants to put a sprinkler system in his garage to help quelch a fire , if one were to start, before it gets to the upstairs bedrooms. He mentioned that he knew that it would not be as good as a "offical" system. He just wants it for "peace of mind". So,what does he get in return? A bunch of comments about checking codes and insurance regs. Since when did we get to the point of having to check with goverment about doing something in our homes that has nothing to do with anybody else safety? This isn't about using undersize wire that could burn up, or using the wrong size lumber for rafters and the roof will collape. This is about water lines that may or may not be used. The dry line is a good idea,but if freezing is not a problem what dif. does it make? As for insurance, I find it hard to believe that they would not pay off on something that that helped put out the fire if there was one.(as long as you did not represent this as a "offical" sprinkler)
My feelings? Yes get it done now!! I think it's a great idea. Anything you can do to knock down the flames is a good thing.
You guys need to stop being soo negative. Help the guy, don't hinder him.
"Let the flaming begin".


Norm

 

[NUTTSGT]

Norm, the problem may arise if a water line breaks and floods his house. He may try to make a claim for the water damage. While it seems to be a great idea for the system, the insurance company may not like it and may not pay on the claim.

 

[rburke65]

nevrdun, I say "amen".

 

[clkimmel]

I have pipes in my house that are water charged at all times... I'll bet you do too. I once had a water pipe break and the insurance co repaired the damage with no complaints.

 

[NUTTSGT]

I have pipes in my house that are water charged at all times... I'll bet you do too. I once had a water pipe break and the insurance co repaired the damage with no complaints.

Remeber those are lines are normal plumbing, not a homeowner concocted sprinkler system.

 

[clkimmel]

Remeber those are lines are normal plumbing, not a homeowner concocted sprinkler system.

Yes, and from what I gather the biggest rejection of the OPs thought of installing his own sprikler system is that it might leak, and normal plumbing pipes leak all the time. If he has water pipes in his ceiling and no fire, ok what's the big deal? If he has a fire, the spinkers system might help, might not, I don't see where the sprinkler system is going to be a problem for him.
I can see where a sprikler system would be a problem if you were required to have one and it didn't work. Just my opinion of course.

Personally, I wouldn't do it but not for the reasons brought up so far.

 

[fflintstone]

So,what does he get in return? A bunch of comments about checking codes and insurance regs.
Norm

You’re new to this forum so you are forgiven. The vast majority of the people here relish in telling you your errors in judgment. If you post an honest question, hoping for a viable answer, you will have to wade thru 20 replies to get one actually answers your question.


To the OP, Having suffered a large loss of “STUFF” recently from fire, I am all for ANYTHING that may help quelch a fire.


.

 

[cowboyjosh]

One thing I have not seen mentioned as I cruised thru this discussion.

A Fire Sprinkler System requires a SEPARATE 2 inch tap from the street into the building if your on city water, as normal household pressure isn't enough if multiple sprinkler heads activate. Also a flow switch (usually tied into sounder devices in the residence or into a monitored alarm panel), annunciator, and a external horn / strobe to alert that the sprinkler has activated. You don't want a DIY or any system to activate and piss out water without some sort of notification. Its not really that expensive in the scheme of things when remodeling or building to have a pro design it, pull the permits, and install it. Last house I built with sprinkler tied into a commercial rated Honeywell Admeco fire and security alarm panel was about 1.5% cost of the job valuation.

 

[rvr6000]

One thing I have not seen mentioned as I cruised thru this discussion.

A Fire Sprinkler System requires a SEPARATE 2 inch tap from the street into the building if your on city water, as normal household pressure isn't enough if multiple sprinkler heads activate. Also a flow switch (usually tied into sounder devices in the residence or into a monitored alarm panel), annunciator, and a external horn / strobe to alert that the sprinkler has activated. You don't want a DIY or any system to activate and piss out water without some sort of notification. Its not really that expensive in the scheme of things when remodeling or building to have a pro design it, pull the permits, and install it. Last house I built with sprinkler tied into a commercial rated Honeywell Admeco fire and security alarm panel was about 1.5% cost of the job valuation.

I'm a big fan of residential sprinklers.....between the light construction that is commonly used today in residential buildings and the high fire load that is often found inside these buildings are collapsing in a fraction of the time that a 40 or 50 year old house would. We used to say a fire doubles in size every minute.....that was back when couches were made of leather, cotton and wood. Now everything is petroleum based....they burn faster, blacker and hotter.

If you can avoid freezing conditions and the equipment that is necessary in dry or antifreeze systems then you should be able to install these in your garage for a very reasonable cost. The need for annunciators and alarms mentioned above are not a requirement for residential systems. Check out NFPA 13D....its probably the shortest code they have ever written and will steer you in the right direction.

 

[V-10 Killer]

I think all of here are just trying to help the OP see all points of view for this project. I don't think anyone is going to say "don't do it", just cover your ****. Talk to your insurance rep and make sure there's no problem. Be aware that if you sell the house, it could be a liability thing if it doesn't work great for the next owner.

I had considered doing this exact thing in the metal cabinet I kept my smokeless reloading powders and stuff. But at that point the entire garage would be a writeoff anyway...

As always, the best thing you can do is know your insurance policy inside and out and make sure you're adequately covered.

 

[nevrdun]

While I am new to posting here, I've been lurking for a few years. Extreme laziness and typing skills keep me from participating more. However, sometimes I get "full up" with all the internet 'experts".
To those that think that this is a special water circuit and will not be covered by insurance if it leaks I think your wrong. ( I guess I'm the expert now.) If this line had a outside spigot on it, would it now be a normal household system? No different than all the other spigots and related piping for a normal house.
The thing I would be concerned about, is water flow capacity. Is there enough water flow (limited by pipe size coming into the building) to make this project worthwhile? What happens when you flush your toilet and someone is in the shower? Do they start yelling? Now ,open up a couple sprinkler heads instead. Is there enough water flow to do anything? Maybe "Frank the Plumber" can jump in here and give us some good info.


Norm

 

[Jazz]

Right now I'm looking at the Griot's ceiling mount units. That's a good idea also and I'm wondering how effective they are. I'd probably want to add 4 units which is about the same cost as installing the sprinklers (DIY). Anyone know how effective these Griot's units are?

Now I'm leaning towards this as a better solution. 4 units in the garage ceiling and one wall mount above each doorway. That should provide good coverage and peace of mind for me and the family.

 

[Jazz]

Does anyone else have one of these dry units? Any other reviews or recommendations? My garage is 24x26 with 10.5 foot ceilings. The coverage area listed on these is 7.7 feet diameter.

Also found a similar product.

 

[cowboyjosh]

I hung 2 of the Griots garage units in my Colorado garage; I hope I never find out how well they work. I also have 3 Rate of Rise heat detectors in my garage tied into the Security / Fire Alarm. The monitored fire alarm gives me more piece of mind then the automatic fire extinguishers. If I were you, I'd do the Griots Garage route instead of the DIY sprinkler, it'll be less frustration and will give you just as much protection for your piece of mind.

 

[hduc2005]

Jazz,

I sent 7 yrs Designing fire sprinkler systems I have a few questions for you what is the sq ft each sprinkler will cover? What type of ceiling will you have? how far from the ceiling do you plan on hanging the pendent style sprinklers? Do you know your water pressure and flow of your service? What size is your service?

 

[6768rogues]

I was in the design, review and inspection of sprinkler and fire suppression system for many years. Residential sprinklers (NFPA 13R) are designed to give the occupants a few extra minutes to exit the structure and are not intended to extinguish or contain the fire. Commercial sprinklers (NFPA 13) are designed to contain and extinguish a fire. They are designed with a water density for the expected fire load. For example, an office building has a light hazard occupancy (regular combustibles) and a store has an ordinary hazard (lots of stuff that will burn). One way to raise the water density is to put in sprinkler heads with a larger orfice, another way is to put the sprinkler heads closer together (never closer than 6-feet, they will cold solder). I had many discussions with others in my trade about your situation. I always felt that anything done that exceeds code requirements is a step in the right direction. If your building does not require sprinklers and you put in a couple of heads, so what. Others say that if it is installed, it has to fully meet requirements as though it were required.
All that said, a few residential sprinklers could give the people upstairs a few extra minutes to get out before the place burns to the ground. I would at least put in a flow switch hooked to an alarm horn so that they know to get out when the sprinklers activate or the extra minutes are wasted.

 

[rasit]

really don't understand where some of you guys are coming from. So,what does he get in return? A bunch of comments about checking codes and insurance regs. Since when did we get to the point of having to check with goverment about doing something in our homes that has nothing to do with anybody else safety? You guys need to stop being soo negative. Help the guy, don't hinder him.
"Let the flaming begin".
Norm

AHHH, a breath of fresh air. Welcome to the forum....

 

[SuperSocket]

Wow you guys are majorly overlooking the OP's question. This is not life or death, this is not a code requirement, this is not a insurance issue, this is simply a matter of a person making extra sure that if there is an issue that he has another line of defense.

You do not NEED annunciators, one way valves, preventers, air triggers, separate feeds, fire risers, or any of this ****. All he has to do is plumb fire rated plumbing to his valve heads with a simple shut off device in the event he knocks one of the heads loose.

Yes, there is a risk of a pipe bursting, but in Newport News, VA? I'm curious, how many people has pipe bursts? Not that many. Insurance should still pay out even if it was homeowner fault. OP already stated he has existing plumbing in this space so the burst issue is a non issue. Worst case is he has to replace drywall and has water in his garage.....big deal.



I'm contemplating the same idea as the OP as it's a simple and effective method of containing a fire should one break out. It's not that it will stop a big fire, it's not that it will extinguish a massive breakout, but it will at least buy you some time and minimize your risk/damage.


Any steps beyond code requirement is a good step.

 

[SuperSocket]

I was in the design, review and inspection of sprinkler and fire suppression system for many years. Residential sprinklers (NFPA 13R) are designed to give the occupants a few extra minutes to exit the structure and are not intended to extinguish or contain the fire. Commercial sprinklers (NFPA 13) are designed to contain and extinguish a fire. They are designed with a water density for the expected fire load. For example, an office building has a light hazard occupancy (regular combustibles) and a store has an ordinary hazard (lots of stuff that will burn). One way to raise the water density is to put in sprinkler heads with a larger orfice, another way is to put the sprinkler heads closer together (never closer than 6-feet, they will cold solder). I had many discussions with others in my trade about your situation. I always felt that anything done that exceeds code requirements is a step in the right direction. If your building does not require sprinklers and you put in a couple of heads, so what. Others say that if it is installed, it has to fully meet requirements as though it were required.
All that said, a few residential sprinklers could give the people upstairs a few extra minutes to get out before the place burns to the ground. I would at least put in a flow switch hooked to an alarm horn so that they know to get out when the sprinklers activate or the extra minutes are wasted.

You beat me to it. Nice post. I would agree with the flow switch alarm, there are a few super cheap devices out there that can achieve this. Another option would be to hook up a smoke detector in your garage with your house system, it will buy you even more time.


A few minutes or even seconds is all you need.

 

[Jazz]

Jazz,

I sent 7 yrs Designing fire sprinkler systems I have a few questions for you what is the sq ft each sprinkler will cover? What type of ceiling will you have? how far from the ceiling do you plan on hanging the pendent style sprinklers? Do you know your water pressure and flow of your service? What size is your service?

For the sake of simplicity I've decided to go with the dry system. The cost works out to about the same. I'm now planning to put four of the 12kg units in the ceiling and a smaller unit beside each of the doors. I'm also going to put an additional unitl in the stairwell since it and the windows are the only means of egress from the upstairs. The dry units also have the advantage that in the case of a "misfire" the cleanup is easy and they would be more effective in the case of a grease or gasoline fire. There is 5/8" firerock on the walls of the garage and it's fully insulated.

It might also sound like overkill, but I'll also be putting a fire axe in the upstairs bedroom along with a rope ladder and extinguisher. Something of a fire kit which which be in our upstairs closet.

I really appreciate the feedback. I definitely think that sometimes people are more concerned with what they think the city/state or other codes require beyond what is common sense or the right of the homeowner. Still however in the end I got the information on they dry automatic systmes from this thread and others learned a lot about wet systems so thanks GJ friends once again!

 

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

...
I really appreciate the feedback. I definitely think that sometimes people are more concerned with what they think the city/state or other codes require beyond what is common sense or the right of the homeowner. Still however in the end I got the information on they dry automatic systmes from this thread and others learned a lot about wet systems so thanks GJ friends once again!

As I'm finding with fixes/repairs/upgrades/just plain missing of our recently bought house, many POs are worthless, cheap-assed home owners who are loath to spend money and would rather do nothing or pay the lowest possible price - along with getting an equally crappy product - than "pay once, cry once". What I consider 'common sense' really doesn't exist, I call it 'uncommon sense'.

Codes are there to make sure things are done properly because many people are flipping clueless AND don't give a ****. I agree that some code seems to go overboard, getting a little too carried away.

I had a conversation with our real estate agent, when we were house hunting, about owners and what I've done and what I expect/think and she said most home owners just don't care. She said I was the exception home owner, the type of owner new owners hope they find. That's fine but it frustrates me to no end when I have to clean up another person's shoddy work. So I tend to NOT give people the benefit of the doubt and hope they prove me wrong. By giving code advice they're just looking out for you and the next owner. The code can indirectly give good advice, maybe something not so obvious. Also what they're saying is to do some research beyond the GJ armchair critics and philosophers

 

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Oh, as a side note, I found this thread while looking for fire suppression systems. I'm thinking of one for my shop. But I want something to put a fire out or else greatly reduce the chances of it growing/spreading.

 

[Milton Shaw]

one thing I have seen in commercial systems is that the water inside the sprinklers is the dirtiest, worst **** you have ever seen. I would make sure I had some way to flush the system out when installed to keep the **** out. For instance I would put a utility sink on the outside wall of the shop, hooked up to the sprinkler pipes, then it would be ordinary plumbing in case there was a leak. Also make sure the heads are protected from you hitting them with boards while working in garage. You would get a rude wake up call if you were getting ready to cut a 12 foot board and knocked the sprinkler head off overhead. I have seen some in schools that were not even 8 foot off the floor in halls and under bulkheads. If this was not a elementary school, I know some teenager would have set them off by now.

 

[theoldwizard1]

one thing I have seen in commercial systems is that the water inside the sprinklers is the dirtiest, worst **** you have ever seen. I would make sure I had some way to flush the system out when installed to keep the **** out.

Before I retired, I "ran" a big old fashioned computer room with Cardox and water suppression. The Cardox was dumped by smoke detection (light beams) after a 30 second delay (lights and horns first) and the water was strictly local heat.

The Cardox system was tested and maintained by a certified company every 6 months.

IIRC, for the local Fire Marshall inspections, building maintenance was required opening the drain valve (at the "end-of-the-line") to prove that the system was truly pressurized.