Garage Foundation in flood zone

[njk4o5]

Anyone ever had to build a foundation in a flood zone? In this case its in Massachusetts and a 48" frost wall is required. Town hall is telling me I need an engineering firm to design a custom foundation for me with a PE stamp. Sounds like its big $$.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks

-Nick

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

I'd like to know where you got the idea that you could build anything in a flood zone. And why would you knowing the ramifications?

 

[Bighead38]

I'd like to know where you got the idea that you could build anything in a flood zone. And why would you knowing the ramifications?

Have you seen some of the flood zone maps? I've seen stuff labeled a flood zone when it's impossible for it to flood unless we get a Noah's ark rainstorm or the ice caps melt and raise the sea 60ft.

 

[pmiranda]

Do you ever want to insure it or anything in it?
Do you have any alternative location?
With some serious dirt moving and cooperative govt and neighbors anything is possible with enough money.

 

[Bondo]

Anyone ever had to build a foundation in a flood zone? In this case its in Massachusetts and a 48" frost wall is required. Town hall is telling me I need an engineering firm to design a custom foundation for me with a PE stamp. Sounds like its big $$.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks

-Nick

Ayuh,..... Go to the Fema website, 'n look around,....

Fema explains exactly what is acceptable, 'n what ain't, in a flood zone,....

 

[jaysberman]

six years ago FEMA put my building in a flood plain causing me $2,000 a year in flood insurance. This year they redrew and totally eliminated it.. Go figure.

 

[LB-1911]

six years ago FEMA put my building in a flood plain causing me $2,000 a year in flood insurance. This year they redrew and totally eliminated it.. Go figure.

They removed yours and added his.....

02-20-2016

I have plans to build a large garage several years in the future.

FEMA just redrew the flood maps and now the buildable portion of my property is in an a flood zone (zone A).

The city says I cannot build anything, even a shed, in a flood zone.

Has anyone had luck with building a garage in a flood zone, maybe by elevating the garage a few feet? Because I am at the very edge of the flood zone my property is not very far below the estimated flood level. It is hard to get a good answer from the city right now because I don't know either the exact size or the exact location where I would put a garage. Size and location depends a lot on how much building the garage would cost.

I really don't want to have to spend $20,000+ to move again just to be able to build a garage.

Anyone built a garage in a flood zone?
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5539107#post5539107

 

[Pwrgeek]

I've got some rural property that is supposedly in a flood zone. It has been in the family long enough that the deed was signed over to us by the Spanish. It has never flooded. Those maps are based on some pretty sketchy information in some places. I'm sure the people at FEMA whose job it is to draw them are doing their best but how well would you do predicting the weather for the next 100 years (if my local tv station is any guide they'd be doing pretty well to get this weekend right). All that being said just build what you want. You won't be able to insure it for flood but if that's a risk you are willing to take them it's your land tell them to pound sand and build it.


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[Blazinzuk]

Check with EVERYONE. insurance, county, state.

I think most of the flood plain stuff is ****. My buddy bought some property from his dad. They bought it specifically cause while other parts of that property would occasionally flood if there was lots of snow and a quick warm up in spring, that peice had never flooded.

Well when they went to get permits to build they found out it was in a flood plain. The rest of the property that would flood every 10 years or so was not.

It took 2 years but the finally changed it just enough for him to build his house

 

[rsanter]

Yea I am in a flood zone as well but have never seen or heard of it flooding here like you would imagine for the description of it being a flood zone.

Some further research showed that if my foundation level was about an inch higher then it would not be an issue.

For one, that dripped the cost of the flood insurance significantly.
Next thing is can you build yours up a little to prevent potential flooding should it ever happen?

Bob

 

[pmiranda]

Best case, you get a topo survey that shows it isn't really floodplain. As folks said already, sometimes the maps are based on old or inaccurate information. You might be able to do a little mild grading work and get the portion you want to build on up out of the floodplain.
That assumes your locality plays ball and you're not creating a flood problem for a neighbor or other parts of your property.
I think your first stop should be at a place that does site work and can do the survey, drawings, and engineering to prove to FEMA and anyone else that it won't flood.

Of course, if it's just for a block wall shed full of landscaping material and equipment or something else like that and you don't care if it floods a little once in a while and you aren't going to insure it, none of this matters as long as it doesn't cause a bunch of runoff to go into your house or the neighbors.

 

[Cyberbear]

My father had 2.5 acres in a flood zone with a predicted 6" 100 year flood water estimate. He was allowed to build a 24" retaining wall around three sides of the building to divert the water.
I agree with other posters that FEMA is federal and unless your private land is within federal control, they may not have the proper jurisdiction. After all, it's government and they get it wrong all the time. I built a 2400 sq/ft shop w/o permits for that very same reason, it's all about jurisdiction and money.

 

[njk4o5]

I have a weird scenario though, i bought my home 2 years ago and it was originally in a flood zone and insurance cost me $377/month. First thing i did was get it surveryed and removed from the flood zone, so my home is not in the flood zone but my lot is. And the lot is where the slab for the garage would be. I chatted with the building dept today and it looks like i need to have an engineering company design a foundation for me and get it stamped by a PE. Which makes building this garage out of question.

My home has never flooded in the 80 years its been here. I know the owners i bought it from and they lived here their whole lives since their father built the house. FEMA flood zones are bullcrap and are not accurate at all. Just a scheme for insurance companies to make big $$.

i could care less is the garage was insured but thats not the problem, i guess its more of a safety/structural thing.

 

[DougWil]

Flood zones are based on probability of a flood event, example every 100 years.
That doesn't mean it is guaranteed to flood every 100 years, just a good probability of it happening.

Same as earthquake zones.

Yeah, it is all bullcrap till the flood comes and your building collapses, floats away or is buried in mud.

I chatted with the building dept today and it looks like i need to have an engineering company design a foundation for me and get it stamped by a PE. Which makes building this garage out of question.

Why? Have you even asked smaller or 1 guy engineering firms about the cost?

 

[pmiranda]

I'd definitely at least find out what the cost is for the required plans. Probably could have found out over the phone already.

 

[DougWil]

All that being said just build what you want. You won't be able to insure it for flood but if that's a risk you are willing to take them it's your land tell them to pound sand and build it.

Yeah sure, just ignore the local officials and build what you want...... that always works out well.

 

[36truck]

Our county went with a new building codes for garages. You had to build 4' frost walls no matter where it's built. Unless you got an engineer to draw up plans for a floating slab. The plans cost $100/150 so way cheaper to get the plans than the frost wall for us. Check with some of the engineering firms in you area.

 

[njk4o5]

I actually work at an engineering firm, but we don't do civil or structural engineering. typically a PE stamp costs $1500 and up and most PE's would want their firm to make the plans themselves and get paid for that as well. This is going to be a ~$2000 setback for me and money that I didn't have.

Im looking into building a nice size shed now. with the only requirements of a shed being it has to meet property setback area and have a door no greater than 6' wide. Then next year ill make the door a regular garage door without obtaining an permit and I have a cheapo garage. Anyone see a downside to this?

Shed size can be anything I want and on any flat slab I want however thick. Height restriction of 30'-0" LOL. Only requirement is the door.

 

[maxpower_hd]

Yeah sure, just ignore the local officials and build what you want...... that always works out well.

I had a neighbor that did just that and they made him take it down. Not good advice here in the fine state of Massachusetts.

 

[maxpower_hd]

We have whole houses here in flood plains. And they do occasionally flood and they are insured. They have different flood plain zones. I don't know how they all work but it gets more expensive as the zone changes. I think it is 100 yr, 50 yr, 10 yr etc.

Check with a local builder. Are you planning to have someone build it or were you planning on building it yourself. If a builder is doing it they may already have a PE they use.

 

[njk4o5]

the builder would be a family friend

 

[DougWil]

I actually work at an engineering firm, but we don't do civil or structural engineering. typically a PE stamp costs $1500 and up and most PE's would want their firm to make the plans themselves and get paid for that as well. This is going to be a ~$2000 setback for me and money that I didn't have.

Im looking into building a nice size shed now. with the only requirements of a shed being it has to meet property setback area and have a door no greater than 6' wide. Then next year ill make the door a regular garage door without obtaining an permit and I have a cheapo garage. Anyone see a downside to this?

Shed size can be anything I want and on any flat slab I want however thick. Height restriction of 30'-0" LOL. Only requirement is the door.

$2000 or so added expense for a real garage doesn't sound like a deal breaker to me?
But then again I don't drive a vette.

I would look into that shed angle a bit more.
I find it hard to believe that the city will let you build any size shed you want (usually 200 sq ft limit), it isn't like they don't know a big shed would eventually be converted to a garage or shop.

I had a neighbor that did just that and they made him take it down. Not good advice here in the fine state of Massachusetts.

Dumb advise anywhere, especially in Taxachusetts.

 

[njk4o5]

I guess its not but its more money that I will have to save up. I was planning to break ground on this project asap. I have a feeling the civil/structural foundation plans are going to make the foundation a lot more expensive to build as well.

My last questions is what if I just build it without permits on a 6" slab. They will require me to knock it down...but what would actually make me knock it down? A daily fine and eventually a lien on the property?

 

[pmiranda]

How big are you wanting to build? How nice?

 

[DougWil]

My last questions is what if I just build it without permits on a 6" slab. They will require me to knock it down...but what would actually make me knock it down? A daily fine and eventually a lien on the property?

They have the ability to fine you, turn off the electrical power to a property with illegal structures, make you tear it down or they can tear it down and make you pay for it.

You really don't want to go there.

 

[njk4o5]

How big are you wanting to build? How nice?

I would like 22x28. but if need be I guess I could do a 1 car size "shed". Wish it was 1970 so I could pour a 6" slab and toss it up for next to nothing. I don't see the problem with doing it that way. Plenty of old structures are still standing. The 48" frost wall for the foundation is $$$$

 

[maxpower_hd]

I guess its not but its more money that I will have to save up. I was planning to break ground on this project asap. I have a feeling the civil/structural foundation plans are going to make the foundation a lot more expensive to build as well.

My last questions is what if I just build it without permits on a 6" slab. They will require me to knock it down...but what would actually make me knock it down? A daily fine and eventually a lien on the property?

Your location says Boston. Good luck and go ahead and build without a permit if you think they can't do anything. You will at a minimum have a lean against your house that will prevent it from being sold. And they can even go as far as revoking the occupancy permit which would make it so you can't live there.

So yes they have ways they can MAKE you tear it down. And where anywhere near the Boston area are there little to know restrictions for sheds? I live in Billerica, which is lenient compared to some places around here and there are very specific restrictions on sheds. For example you aren't allowed to build one on a slab without a permit because it is a permanent structure and no longer a shed.

You don't want to mess around trying to get around building codes and laws to save a couple of grand. It will cost you more in the long run. Just do it right or don't do it at all if it is too expensive for you.

 

[Pwrgeek]

Yeah sure, just ignore the local officials and build what you want...... that always works out well.

Obviously my sarcasm didn't come through in writing. I do think that if you own the dirt you should be able to build what you want where you want how you want, but we don't live in a free country anymore.

 

[DougWil]

There are lots of rural places in the US where there is no building permit required or code enforcement. Typically a electrical permit and inspection is required before the power company will hook you up.

Usually those areas have nothing but junky, poorly built, falling down shacks where absolutely no one has any idea how to build anything properly.

 

[pmiranda]

Imagine "This Old House: Louisiana Swamp Edition

 

[Pwrgeek]

There are lots of rural places in the US where there is no building permit required or code enforcement. Typically a electrical permit and inspection is required before the power company will hook you up.

Usually those areas have nothing but junky, poorly built, falling down shacks where absolutely no one has any idea how to build anything properly.

I don't know. For every falling down shack you do notice I'd bet there are 10 buildings that were put up before you or I were born without permits or inspections and will be here long after we are dust. I tend to not like people telling me what I can do on dirt I "own". I think the whole responsibility for permits and inspections should be given over to the insurance companies. You want insurance then you have to have your building inspected otherwise it's your life build what you want how you want.

 

[Catadj78]

Flood zones are for insurance purposes only. NFIP (national flood insurance program) is a government insurance. Several insurance companies sell and service the policy but it is a government policy.

Where I live in city limits there are no building codes, dont know how I would feel having someone else tell me what I can do on my property

 

[pmiranda]

If you're out in the boonies and you're not building a hotel, school, or any other building that anybody but yourself will occupy, go for it. Otherwise, building codes exist for a reason. Like any other modern government function, they go overboard in some places.

 

[Jlbc212]

I wouldn't build a garage in Taxachusetts without first putting in a foundation with 4 ft deep frost walls, but that's just my opinion. A good foundation will also be at least 8" higher than the finished grade. With a 10" thick footing and a 4 foot wall on a level site that would be accomplished. If you are building wood frame walls, that 8" to 10" of concrete above the surrounding grade helps to prevent water damage to the wood frame and vermin penetration into the garage. Proper prepping for a slab can also be costly. You will need to have good drainage under and around the slab to prevent frost from forming, heaving and cracking the slab. In most of New England the soil is rocky and getting the soil to drain can also be expensive.

 

[njk4o5]

Your location says Boston. Good luck and go ahead and build without a permit if you think they can't do anything. You will at a minimum have a lean against your house that will prevent it from being sold. And they can even go as far as revoking the occupancy permit which would make it so you can't live there.

So yes they have ways they can MAKE you tear it down. And where anywhere near the Boston area are there little to know restrictions for sheds? I live in Billerica, which is lenient compared to some places around here and there are very specific restrictions on sheds. For example you aren't allowed to build one on a slab without a permit because it is a permanent structure and no longer a shed.

You don't want to mess around trying to get around building codes and laws to save a couple of grand. It will cost you more in the long run. Just do it right or don't do it at all if it is too expensive for you.

yep your right I looked into the slab part of a shed. once concrete is brought into the picture in any way it pretty much has to have the 48" frost wall foundation. I still cant find anything in the building code about maximum shed size. all it talks about is the 6' door width

 

[DougWil]

Flood zones are for insurance purposes only. NFIP (national flood insurance program) is a government insurance. Several insurance companies sell and service the policy but it is a government policy.

Where I live in city limits there are no building codes, dont know how I would feel having someone else tell me what I can do on my property

Usually the state, county or whomever requires by law that you build according to the adopted building code, only there is no permit process or inspection to enforce it.

 

[DougWil]

yep your right I looked into the slab part of a shed. once concrete is brought into the picture in any way it pretty much has to have the 48" frost wall foundation. I still cant find anything in the building code about maximum shed size. all it talks about is the 6' door width

It isn't in the building code is in the city or towns adopted polices.

Call and ask, 'What is the largest shed (temporary building) I can build without a permit?'

I expect it is 100-200sq ft like most places.

 

[SgtHawkUSMC]

yep your right I looked into the slab part of a shed. once concrete is brought into the picture in any way it pretty much has to have the 48" frost wall foundation. I still cant find anything in the building code about maximum shed size. all it talks about is the 6' door width

I used to live in Harvard. I think the shed size is regulated by the town/city in Mass. If I remember right, ours was 8'x12' max before you needed a permit unless you were replacing one on the same foot print.
When we lived in Georgetown, I had a 26'x34' garage built. Most of our property was considered a flood plane, but it was never wet. It was barely mentioned in the permitting process. Depends on the building inspector.
Beautiful Vette. I love the color.

 

[69gp]

Not sure where you are building in MA but from reading your post you state that you need a frost wall for a foundation. You should provide more details in order to help you. What type of garage are you putting up? is it a barn type with post? or are you going to put up a standard framed building?

If its a standard framed building then you are going to need the frost wall foundation regardless if its in a flood zone or not.

In MA if you use an AIA registered architect he can cover all the engineering work required for your needs under his scope.

 

[DougWil]

Not sure where you are building in MA but from reading your post you state that you need a frost wall for a foundation. You should provide more details in order to help you. What type of garage are you putting up? is it a barn type with post? or are you going to put up a standard framed building?

If its a standard framed building then you are going to need the frost wall foundation regardless if its in a flood zone or not.

In MA if you use an AIA registered architect he can cover all the engineering work required for your needs under his scope.

Should be obvious by now,,, but he doesn't want to hire an engineer or architect.
Or build a footing below frost level, or even get a building permit.

He wants to throw up a low cost garage. And who can blame him?
I want supermodels to throw themselves at me.

^Course neither is going to happen.