Garage Heating/Need Good Info!

[krux]

Hey guys,

Specs of garage are below:
*25ft x 25ft garage with 8ft ceiling
-R13 on walls / R19 on ceiling

Mission:

Trying to heat the garage so I can work on my cars. Now when I will be working on them in the winter is maybe 10 times max up to a 1 hour each. If I did my formula's right it would be cheaper for me to run either propane or kerosene vs putting in a gas line, w/electrical and a heater out there. The garage is sealed very tightly so I have minimal heat loss.

So what gives you more fuel per btu: ?

Propane has always had a smell does kerosene stink to: ?

According to websites I would only need around 21k btu to raise up 20-30 degrees: ?

Better to go with a small btu unit due to having increased amount of life for tank: ?

Please add additional information:

 

[Falcon67]

Electric here is cost compatible with propane. It's also quicker to set up and get going. My G73 puts out 17,500 BTU - plenty for the space you describe. Any open fire - propane, kero, etc - in a tight space is also not recommended. Carbon Monoxide will build up pretty quick. And yes, they smell. So if you run a gas heater without external combustion air you will have to vent the space and vent it often, losing your heat.

 

[rburke65]

Here is a link that might help......
http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index.php/articles/fuel_cost_comparison_calculator/

 

[Mr.N]

Location: MN

First and foremost from another Minnesotan: Up that R19 in ceiling.
R19 is for states that don't get cold.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

What are you paying for electricity? $$$$/KwHr.

 

[Gunnert]

1. If you're smelling propane you have a problem!

I recently installed an overhead ProCom 45K Propane heater in my garage. Northern Tool had/has them on sale for $250.00 + $45.00 shipping. Pipine install kit was $100. I ran flex gas hose to an 85 gallon propane tank. I did the install myself with help from this forum. No big deal, on scale 1-10 I'd give it a 5 for DIYer.

 

[tylernt]

So what gives you more fuel per btu: ?

See: www.eia.gov/neic/experts/heatcalc.xls -- plug in your local utility rates and you can see exactly which is cheapest.

Propane has always had a smell does kerosene stink to: ?

Unvented appliances tend to stink, produce water vapor (which can make things inside your shop rust), and produce carbon monoxide (which can make people in your shop dead). If you get a heater with a chimney to vent combustion byproducts to the outside, neither kind should smell.

Better to go with a small btu unit due to having increased amount of life for tank: ?

A BTU is a BTU no matter how big or small your heating device is. All else being equal, a small heating device will need to run for longer; a larger device will run for less time: but both will use the same amount of fuel to produce the same number of BTUs.

However larger units also tend to be more efficient, so a larger device producing 40KBTU at 92% efficiency will save fuel costs vs a 20KBTU heater at 80% efficiency.

 

[CNGsaves]

Doubt that propane or electric will be as cheap as Natural Gas. Does house have Natural Gas service??

Looking for permanent solution or short-term??

Short-term I'd go with Big Buddy propane heater on a 20 lb BBQ-size bottle of propane as it's 18K Btu and cheap.

Long-term I'd install a hanging natural gas heater like a Mr Heater Big Maxx, or Garage Guy (Sterling) or Hot Dawg (Modine) or Reznor. Whole slew of threads on these great garage heaters. Just use Search feature in black line at top of website.

 

[krux]

This is great information guys you have gave me so I hope I don't miss anyone on this. Sorry for the delay for some reason it wouldn't let me sign in and reply so here it goes:

Falcon67
Do you have a setup on this G37? You say its eletric too so how many amps does it pull?

**** in Wisconsin
Maybe its not more I can't smell it but more it waters my eyes. My buddy has a propane heater and granted he does not seem to leave a door crack it gets bad after awhile. But then again I would assume this would be all propane use.

Gunnert:
Do you have a link for that setup your talking about? I like the idea of that .

Tylernt:
Perfect now that is great advice. I for some reason thought I read some were kerosene gives off more btu per pound then propane. What I am looking for is max efficiency so your nailed it on the head that a bigger unit would net me better results than a smaller unit. I never knew that.

CNGsaves:

I could get somebody to run a natural gas line out but wouldn't be in the budget for next 5 to 10 years since I would think it would be very expensive to do. Eventually I wouldn't mind a nice setup for it but on how much it would cost is the killing part. I just bought a house so everything is expensive at first.

 

[tylernt]

Kero does have more BTU/gal than propane. But you're probably more interested in BTU/$, so you'll have to factor in local costs of propane/gal and kero/gal.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Electric here is cost compatible with propane.

Maybe where you live but that statement is not true in most of the US !

 

[theoldwizard1]

Propane has always had a smell does kerosene stink to: ?

Any fuel that is going to be consumed in a non-vented space is going to leave some smell. Worse, if in fact you have a well sealed envelop, it will leave CO which will, at a minimum, give you a headache or possibly kill you.

Look into a direct vent propane wall furnace. Easy to install. If your usage is realistic, 2 - 20 or 30 lb tanks are all you need. Run one until it is empty, then swap in the other one and get the empty tank filled.

 

[Falcon67]

Pulls 20 amps. Lots of threads on that unit here. See also Fahrenheit 5000

 

[pseudorealityx]

Also, unless you plan to always keep a minimum temperature in the garage, oversize the heater so you get a faster warm-up time.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . . is garage attached or detached?? If detached, how far from house?? Does garage even have electrical service capable of handling an additional breaker for 5,000 watt heater??

Do you have any kind of budgeted dollar amount you can afford to spend for this heating idea of yours??

 

[hedhunter9]

To give an example of costs, We built a pole barn for my wife and partitioned off part of it for her Parrots that she raises.

It has a 1500watt electric heater in it. in cold weather if it ran 24/7 here is how I figured it.

1000w = costs .086 cent per hour
1500 w = costs .129 cents per hour.

so 24 hours x 30 days = 720 hours X .129 = $92.88 for the month...

This heats her 16' by 24' room to 70 Degrees easily.

If we ran gas to it, it would cost us about $25 per month to heat.

So could save about 68 bucks per month we heat it... Then you have to figure
your cost for installation of gas line/heater verses Electric line/heater

 

[Falcon67]

Maybe where you live but that statement is not true in most of the US !

Also depends on the quantity. I fill RV tanks because the city would take a dim view of a 250 gallon propane tank parked in the alley. RV tank fill is way more expensive per gallon than bulk. So the comment stands - you just have to figure out the cost per therm using local pricing. I'm paying .135/kWh for power and next town over they might be getting .08. Somebody on here last month was asking if .03 was a good deal.

I'll add that the G73 cycled 4 times an hour for a total on time of no more than 15 minutes/hr in very cold - 20~30F - weather. If you have to figure 24/7 operation to cost a heater, then you have the wrong heater IMHO. The new shop is in an area of the city with no NG service. So it's electric, or maybe a fireplace.

 

[James-W]

According to the opening poster, he will be using heat in the garage at the most 10 times in the course of the Winter, and it would only be for about an hour each time. So if we figure 4 months of cold weather where he would want some heat his garage, that means an average of 2.5 hours per month. If we also assume he would want to start the heater before he starts working so the garage is warm when he begins work, then we can add another 2.5 hours onto the heating time making a total of 5 hours per month. But the heater probably will not run the entire 5 hours, so we can't really tell exactly how long the heater will be running each month. For the sake of argument, let's say the heater runs for all 5 hours. So depending on how much he pays for electrical power in the area where he lives, all he needs is to do the math and he will have a rough idea as to what it will cost to heat the garage with electricity.

If he runs a natural gas line, I am quite certain the cost to operate the heater would be substantially less than with electricity. But then he will have the additional cost of getting gas to the garage and the cost of a gas heater. But the cost doesn't stop there, he will need to vent the gas heater and depending on local regulations, he may need to get a permit and have everything inspected. Some of these things he may be able to do himself, some he may have to hire the work done, but in any case there is going to be some charge involved.

I agree that in the long term it would be less expensive to heat the garage with natural gas IF he plans on working out there more than just occasionally. But if he plans on working out there only a few hours each Winter, then I seriously doubt it would pay him to go to the expense of going with a gas heater. I am sure with natural gas there would be a savings on the heat and he would eventually save enough money to cover the cost of the natural gas installation. But the thing is, for the limited amount of time he is using the heater it may take him 20 or more years to do it. For all we know, he may sell the place long before that.

I am making an assumption that I maybe shouldn't make. I am assuming he has enough electrical power running to the garage to operate the heater. This may not be the case, I don't really know. But if he does have the capability of running an electric heater out there, for the very limited amount of time he plans on working out there, I firmly believe he is better off with electric heat.

 

[krux]

Any fuel that is going to be consumed in a non-vented space is going to leave some smell. Worse, if in fact you have a well sealed envelop, it will leave CO which will, at a minimum, give you a headache or possibly kill you.

Look into a direct vent propane wall furnace. Easy to install. If your usage is realistic, 2 - 20 or 30 lb tanks are all you need. Run one until it is empty, then swap in the other one and get the empty tank filled.

Any preference on a wall mounted one with compatibility for using a tank?

OP . . . . is garage attached or detached?? If detached, how far from house?? Does garage even have electrical service capable of handling an additional breaker for 5,000 watt heater??

Do you have any kind of budgeted dollar amount you can afford to spend for this heating idea of yours??

Right now I have a 30 amps going out there. Yet it runs all the lights and the outlets (5). I do have one outlet that is for 20 amps but not sure if it could handle anything else with it. I wasn't the one to bring the electrical out there so I have no clue on how he had it setup.

 

[krux]

According to the opening poster, he will be using heat in the garage at the most 10 times in the course of the Winter, and it would only be for about an hour each time. So if we figure 4 months of cold weather where he would want some heat his garage, that means an average of 2.5 hours per month. If we also assume he would want to start the heater before he starts working so the garage is warm when he begins work, then we can add another 2.5 hours onto the heating time making a total of 5 hours per month. But the heater probably will not run the entire 5 hours, so we can't really tell exactly how long the heater will be running each month. For the sake of argument, let's say the heater runs for all 5 hours. So depending on how much he pays for electrical power in the area where he lives, all he needs is to do the math and he will have a rough idea as to what it will cost to heat the garage with electricity.

If he runs a natural gas line, I am quite certain the cost to operate the heater would be substantially less than with electricity. But then he will have the additional cost of getting gas to the garage and the cost of a gas heater. But the cost doesn't stop there, he will need to vent the gas heater and depending on local regulations, he may need to get a permit and have everything inspected. Some of these things he may be able to do himself, some he may have to hire the work done, but in any case there is going to be some charge involved.

I agree that in the long term it would be less expensive to heat the garage with natural gas IF he plans on working out there more than just occasionally. But if he plans on working out there only a few hours each Winter, then I seriously doubt it would pay him to go to the expense of going with a gas heater. I am sure with natural gas there would be a savings on the heat and he would eventually save enough money to cover the cost of the natural gas installation. But the thing is, for the limited amount of time he is using the heater it may take him 20 or more years to do it. For all we know, he may sell the place long before that.

I am making an assumption that I maybe shouldn't make. I am assuming he has enough electrical power running to the garage to operate the heater. This may not be the case, I don't really know. But if he does have the capability of running an electric heater out there, for the very limited amount of time he plans on working out there, I firmly believe he is better off with electric heat.

I love your thinking on all this. I am a huge car guy and have two cars in there but currently I will not be putting any time into due to having house work to do instead. So I would only be using the garage for fixing issues during winter or changing oil for a while.

Have you had good luck with electric heaters? I always hear bad story's about them.

 

[CNGsaves]

With such limited electrical in that garage, no way a suitable electric heater is possible - - - - ie a big 5,000 watt 240volt. His 120v electrical out there could handle a 1,500 watt blow style space heater or oil-filled heater (or a couple of them). However, it would take 1/2 day or more to heat up that garage. Could leave the heater on all the time and keep garage above freezing but that would be expensive. Those small electric space heaters are not efficient.

I'd still recommend temporary solution of Big Buddy propane heater with hose and 20 lb BBQ-size LPG tank. These are safe for indoor use as have low oxygen shutoff sensor. Also get the DC/AC converter so the little fan could be turned on blowing hot air. This might run $150 to $175 and then $15 to refill the LPG bottle when it runs out.

Long-term got go with buried yellow plastic polyethlene pipe out to garage and a hanging garage NG heater. Likely could do this for $1,000 to $1,200.

 

[tankd0g]

You use your garage in the winter about as often as I currently do, I have NO insulation, just ranchwall, and an oil hot air furnace I got for free off Kijiji, it needed a bit of work but you can find good used ones for $500 all day long on those sites. I had to buy a couple sections of chimney pipe to accommodate my roof but that was it. I can heat the garage to 12C when it's -12C outside in 20 minutes. I ran it off a 25L diesel jug I would just fill up as needed for years but I have it plumed into the same tank as my house now.

 

[Gunnert]

If you haven't already, I'd check the service going to the garage. I moved into currect house about 2 years ago. Had a home inspection conducted before I made an offer. Inspector disclosed breaker feeding detached garage was 60 amp, but wire gauge, etc, was rated for 100 amps. I only had to swap out the breaker. You never know....

 

[krux]

You use your garage in the winter about as often as I currently do, I have NO insulation, just ranchwall, and an oil hot air furnace I got for free off Kijiji, it needed a bit of work but you can find good used ones for $500 all day long on those sites. I had to buy a couple sections of chimney pipe to accommodate my roof but that was it. I can heat the garage to 12C when it's -12C outside in 20 minutes. I ran it off a 25L diesel jug I would just fill up as needed for years but I have it plumed into the same tank as my house now.

That would be a good idea but I do not think anything like that in my county is legal. You can't have a wood fire place in a garage in my area so I would rule that out too. Good thinking though and it would be cool to have.

If you haven't already, I'd check the service going to the garage. I moved into currect house about 2 years ago. Had a home inspection conducted before I made an offer. Inspector disclosed breaker feeding detached garage was 60 amp, but wire gauge, etc, was rated for 100 amps. I only had to swap out the breaker. You never know....

Already been checked good thinking though. I love the thoughts on how everyone is thinking creatively.