garage into small hill ideas?

[tank]

Well we've been looking to move but the property we are interested in is not coming available as we've been previously told. Long story short, it's best to try and make it work here. We're in the best schools and have a great house but our garage options are pretty limited and the cost to move and buy more property here mostly for a garage makes the garage costs well a little rich to say the least and availability is slim to none.

My options for a shop here are about 16x24 or something similar.

My question is any tips or thoughts on how to handle this hill? Any examples to share I could pull a few ideas from would be great as well. I'm thinking dig in and make a retaining wall? Not using the garage walls to hold back the dirt. Poured walls would look cleaner and hold temps better but would cost much more. I have a small/med kubota with a front end loader so I could cut it out ourselves.

Stakes in pics are around 16x22ish for reference. Thanks a lot for any thoughtful responses.

 

[jtetterton]

Why build a retaining wall instead of using the garage foundation to hold the dirt back? Just like building a house into a hill with a walkout basement.


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[ConCretin]

You don't say where you are specifically so I'm not sure about your frost conditions. Are you thinking monolithic slab or frost walls. In either case, the rear wall of the garage can easily retain the soils in such a shallow cut. A little attention to waterproofing and drainage will make for a dry interior.

 

[Voi]

I'm thinking dig in and make a retaining wall? Not using the garage walls to hold back the dirt. Poured walls would look cleaner and hold temps better but would cost much more.

Both the entire 40' back of my garage and one 20' gable end of my cabin are built into hills. In both cases there is a poured wall that makes up one wall of the space. Eight tall in the case of our garage and four feet at our cabin.

If you build separate retaining and garage walls you'll need space to get in to install and maintain siding and to maintain the retaining wall. That's space you're taking away from what is already a small area.

Plus the gap between the retaining wall and garage wall will be an area for snow to collect, which I assume you will have since your location is "North" in your profile.

I would price it both ways and strongly consider all of the tradeoffs.

 

[tank]

I'll be building it and things get trickier having garage walls poured as well as lot more expensive. We're barely 30 and kids are still really young and expensive. Just trying to see if there are cheaper options or if I might as well shell out for poured walls. If someone's got some great retaining wall ideas then awesome. If not I'll look into cement. Going into winter here I won't do anything until next season now so am doing my research. Thanks for the responses. Looks like poured walls taking a strong lead $$ lol and we're also in michigan.

 

[Old Man Roger]

I'm completely clueless about retaining walls, but I'm trying to think outside of the box. Would it be cost effective to bring in fill, then put the garage on top?

 

[tank]

We kind of liked the idea of not having a garage basically sitting atop a hill at the back of our lot. look's a lot cleaner lower. I'd rather pay for cement walls then fill I guess. Suppose I need to get a better idea what cement walls would cost. It'll be a few grand just to have the floor poured am I correct?

 

[Stuart in MN]

Does the back wall set into the hill need to be poured concrete? Can't it be built with concrete blocks? After all, there are a zillion basements built with them. It would need to be waterproofed, of course.

 

[tthornto]

What is limiting you to a 16x24? Is there a Drainfield to the right of the staked out area? That 16' width limits you to a single car space and if you have the room to do it, it won't cost much more to go 24x24.

I would do foundation wall along the back and possibly along the left side. On the right side I would excavate it out to the same elevation as the garage and have a retaining wall poured at the same time as the foundation walls.

I also envision the garage having a second story that could be a wood shop, guesthouse, granny suite, rental apartment... Put a large deck all along that right hand side. Underneath the deck then becomes weather protected storage space for your tractor, yard equipment, and kids toys and all the other stuff you want to keep out of the rain and snow but you don't want taking up space inside your new garage.

 

[ConCretin]

Is your 16 x 22 stake-out the intended size? The least expensive foundation would be a mono slab with a wall on top. You could do a short curb wall in the front to keep your framing off the ground and a taller wall in back to retain the cut.

It's hard to predict costs because they vary regionally but I'd expect to pay $5000 to $7500 for concrete excluding site work, water proofing, etc.

 

[tank]

maybe concrete blocks could be a middle ground solution, it appears my initial assumption of retaining wall has been shut down but likely for good reason. It may be cheaper but not as good and won't look as good. 16x24 is just enough sq ft in a shop for me for now. I do functional wood working, nothing extremely fancy. I've built furniture, entertainment centers, have plans for dining tables and kids sets for their rooms when they are big enough. Will be mostly that and tool storage with some occasional maintenance or projects, car, truck tractor etc. we still have our 2 stall attached garage for main parking. the limitation is we have just under 1 acre here and the back yard is shared with garden, deck, dogs and kids. I can't have the garage much bigger without it eating too much yard and buying property here is expensive, multiples that of neighboring areas but then you forfeit the schools.

I also don't want to be here forever so this could potentially buy us a handful of years before I'll want bigger so resale is also relevant. I'd like to get my money back and can't gut the yard too much as it will alienate too many suckers who don't like a nice a shop lol

16x24 is enough shop space for me for a while. but those dimensions could also attract people who have bass boats, want to park a classic car etc. my use is a shop but being boat worthy or car worthy helps later. Also 16 ft trusses are doable with 2 men, myself and my aging father. builders around here can charge whatever they want for accessory type stuff, like to avoid where possible.

@ LLWillysfan: you're saying concrete for a slab OR slab and walls at around 5-7k?? Thanks.

 

[Kaizen]

What’s the rise from front to back? Put a string level on it and see. Remember you will probably have to dig out a foot or so to get all the bad dirt out. I had three feet of loom where I wanted mine. The rest of the yard is sand. Go figure.
Trying to use a retaining wall would work put not look as nice as a garage half buried.
Also not much roi for detached garages. Esp single stall ones. Might want to wait.


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[tank]

from bottom of hill to top it's around 6+ feet. this building can't be over 15' tall according to ordinances. And ROI is exactly why I want to be able to do a good bit of it myself.

sad truth is I either sell this place and eat 10's of thousands of dollars in taxes and fees, move and pay a $100,000 extra just for 2-3 acres, then pay 40-50k for whatever garage I want there and more money if we get more house or need one build. so a smooth 175-200k more.

Or I just bite my lip and make something work here for a while longer at ~10-12k?? if I can do a lot of work myself. It's not an ideal situation but I guess I should consider myself lucky to be here anyways.

I agree about retaining wall, it's not ideal. Guess I need to get better ideas on pricing for cement. It's killer work but I wonder if I could do the slab with a rented mixer, it's been a long time but I've helped my dad do plenty of it. The bummer is he's no spring chicken anymore so it'd be me.

 

[acer66]

With proper water proofing it does not matter how you do it.

 

[DieselNut88]

My garage is 3.5' into a hill on the back and slowly steps down to grade towards the front. Foundation is poured concrete.

 

[Old Man Roger]

Just from an roi point of view, and if you weren't apposed to putting the building sideways. Could you get a shed? I bought a 12x28 for 6 grand. Steel frame, metal siding and roof, roll up garage door, 2 windows, a man door, pressure treated floor and floor joist.. I work on my Silverado in there, so it's pretty roomy for a shed.

 

[slidehammer]

We kind of liked the idea of not having a garage basically sitting atop a hill at the back of our lot. look's a lot cleaner lower. I'd rather pay for cement walls then fill I guess. Suppose I need to get a better idea what cement walls would cost. It'll be a few grand just to have the floor poured am I correct?

There is a lot to be said for having grade slope away from your structure in all directions, and for having complete access to the exterior of your building. I would favor the separate retaining wall or fill options.

 

[ConCretin]

LLWillysfan: you're saying concrete for a slab OR slab and walls at around 5-7k?? Thanks.

It's a rough guess but up my way I'd expect that would cover a haunched monolithic slab with 12" high walls at the front and higher walls in the back.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Building a retaining that even holds 1-2' of soil requires careful planing/engineering if you want it to last.

Footing and drainage are CRITICAL !

 

[OccupantRJ]

You are likely going to regret not going 20 feet wide. I had a walled 16’ wide bay I built into my first workshop, and my only regret later was that it was not at least 20’ wide. Stuff along walls, open car door and squeeze to get out. Too narrow to work comfortably in.

 

[Kaizen]

Op what are you envisioning doing in this garage? A large shed with wood floor might be a better option?
I did my entire garage 30x36 myself except concrete. Total I’m at about 40k. If I went cheap it could have been low 30s. The slab and excavation was a third of that. See if you can use a monolithic foundation with the retaining wall. So all wood construction.
Also clarify the situation to code enforcement and verify the height. Is it compared to house or lowest point of soil etc etc.


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[JamesW84]

I was in a similar situation, but I'm building a 32x64. The rear was 5 ft higher than the front ground level. I cut it all back, dug footers, had footers and walls poured, 5" of gravel and 5" of concrete inside walls. I'll backfill around the perimeter and slope it all away from the building.

 

[kbs2244]

I try to make lemonade out of lemons.
A hill is not a problem, it is an opportunity.
It is a free chance to go 2 stories.

I your case the slope looks to go front to back.
That puts the high wall across the back.
Make it as high as possible for down stairs height,
and also, minimum fill as an entry ramp.
A patio door will do for light and access.

Think of the walk out basement suggestion.
It will be familiar to any contractor or building department.
And it will double your floor space.

I second the 20 foot width idea.
It will not only give you more room,
but the SpanCreate planks for your floor come in 20 foot lengths.

 

[tank]

appreciate all the responses. I'll repeat it's typical use cases for now:
"I do functional wood working, nothing extremely fancy. I've built furniture, entertainment centers, have plans for dining tables and kids sets for their rooms when they are big enough. Will be mostly that and tool storage with some occasional maintenance or projects, car, truck tractor etc. we still have our 2 stall attached garage for main parking. the limitation is we have just under 1 acre here and the back yard is shared with garden, deck, dogs and kids."

20' wide feet sounds pretty good but not sure that wouldn't take too much yard and starts getting difficult for the DIY sizes. This isn't my dream shop, this is a nice band aid and my first dedicated shop while staying in an expensive area for my family. people saying 2 stories etc aren't reading the entire thing. It simply cannot be that, for zoning, ordinances and my funds. I don't even want that anyways. This is a fix for 5 years or so that will not be a negative for resale and potentially even a positive. By rule anything over 144sq ft has to be visually pleasing and match the home. So no giant sheds or pole barns here either.

It's just not really feasible to move to a place where I can get everything I want while still in this quality of an area right now.

 

[Kaizen]

Build a large shed. Keep auto stuff in existing garage. No foundation needed so big savings. Overbuild the floor joists and get power out there and your shop is in business. Add a closet on one end from outside for lawn mower and stuff.
Or add onto back of attached garage.



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[ToolsAreLikeToys]

Building into the hill and using cement blocks would be my suggestion.

As for the extra 4 foot width. Two guys should have no problems installing 20 ft trusses. My dad, my 16 yr old son, and myself did 28 ft trusses and they had 2 x 6 bottom chords so I have a real attic. Also, based on so many places, like my dad's first workshop and my current family room among other places I've been, long and thin is never as good as almost square. Heck, even 20 x 20 would be more square feet than 16 x 24

And that extra 100 sq ft ain't nothing in an acre.

 

[tank]

Hello everyone, I've worked out some details. I'll be going with a 20x22 garage. I was quoted $6000 for a poured floor and walls in the hill and near $3000 for the excavation of the hill, digging in the footings and removal. Any thoughts on those prices? Seems ok for my area but any red flags?

I've yet to talk about alternative options with the building inspector so the above is my worst case scenario financially but doable if it's by far my best option.

If i go the poured walls and floors route I'm thinking we'd build the entire structure ourselves and maybe do the shingles and save on that mark up and labor.

 

[ConCretin]

It's hard to predict costs because they vary regionally but I'd expect to pay $5000 to $7500 for concrete excluding site work, water proofing, etc.

I was quoted $6000 for a poured floor and walls in the hill and near $3000 for the excavation of the hill, digging in the footings and removal. Any thoughts on those prices? Seems ok for my area but any red flags?

Your pricing seems in line to me. lol. At the least, you'll want a good foundation drain and surface drainage. If groundwater is an issue, you should consider a membrane and drainage board.

Make sure you have a detailed proposal and roll it into a contract. The cost can very with the details of what you want; reinforcing? vapor barrier? under slab insulation?. You can give my Guide to Floor Slabs a read for more on this.

 

[Kevkx125]

If i go the poured walls and floors route I'm thinking we'd build the entire structure ourselves and maybe do the shingles and save on that mark up and labor.

I Like this idea it would be a good learning experience, and you might just save yourself some money and you can take pride in the fact that you did yourself.

 

[Firebrick43]

My 28x50 basement 9' deep cost 3k to excavate. That's a very easy excavation to me. Rent a tracked skid steer and it could easily be done in a day by an amature with a good grasp on things.

The wall would be a perfect place for ICF. They are easy for DIY for rectangular shapes. The cost of icf looks high at first but if you errect the forms and bracing it's very comparable to block with bond beams and filled cells or a poured formed wall when you consider the insulation. Also icf will be stronger than either as well.

A lot of money can be saved as well if you prep the slab for the pour and only have the concrete guys place and finish. Can a concrete truck get back there?

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

I'd imagine poured walls for the garage wouldn't cost much more than a separate retaining wall. Probably look better and be more energy efficient too.

 

[tank]

Yea i thought the 6000 for cement work with a wall poured was fair. 3000 for the excavation sounded rough though. It's in our back yard and we have only a 9' gate on our wood fence. Problem with a poured wall is I can't do a monolithic slab if i am thinking right. that would mean footings and those would need to be dug out. I actually have access to a kabota front end loader but if i'm only able to do poured walls and floor I'm not sure I can dig for footings myself. The hill is making it more than just a standard build and that's past my DIY knowledge. A retaining wall would be much cheaper I'd think and I could do all that myself BUT It'd just eat more yard and be a safety/cleaning hazard so it's not my first choice but not out of the question. I guess if anyone here can explain the difference required for excavation needs between a mono slab and poured walls and floor I'd appreciate it. Having damn near 10k into cement and excavation for a 20x22 seems steep.

 

[matt_i]

If you don't like the prices, then you must educate yourself to DIY!

Anything you are speaking about is within the realm of possibilities.

One can dig for footings with a shovel, it just takes longer. Or figure out where to rent a mini-excavator, which will make the job considerably faster. I rented mine for $300 for a day of digging, 42" deep on a 25' x 40' build.

 

[ConCretin]

I guess if anyone here can explain the difference required for excavation needs between a mono slab and poured walls and floor I'd appreciate it. Having damn near 10k into cement and excavation for a 20x22 seems steep.

You basically have two options for a concrete foundation. Frost walls would consist of independent footings and walls with a slab poured within. A mono slab would incorporate the footing into the slab with the walls placed on top. Frost walls would protect the structure from frost movement while a mono-slab 'floats' on the frost - although it can be frost protected with the use of rigid insulation.

Frost walls would obviously require excavating a trench around the perimeter. The footing could be just under the slab in the back but you'd want to step it down in the front. The trench would have to be backfilled and compacted before placing the base material for the slab.

A mono-slab would just require a flat excavation. Assuming native soils are adequate, you'd just build up the slab base in the middle leaving the perimeter grade lower to accommodate a thickened edge to act as the wall footing.

Your excavation price would obviously vary with the foundation system you select. It would be be high in either case if it just covered digging. If it includes base material for the slab, foundation drainage, loam & seed, etc, it might not be too bad.

 

[Firebrick43]

I don't know why a digging spade is such a dirty word but it along with a shovel would dig the 8" trench around the perimeter for a mono slab would only take 2 or 3 hours for a building that size. Use a tracked skid steer to dig a flat area and a spade to dig the footer area. The other option is to dig a flat area to the bottom of the footer and use crushed stone to build the center back up and compact with a plate compactor. The stone is a good idea anyway for strength and drainage. You still will be well under the 3k quoted.

 

[tank]

I'm trying to educate myself lol, one way to do that is ask questions here and i'm thankful for the discussion. I talked with building inspector. He said a post frame would suffice and he'd give a permit for a good plan.

Thinking treated posts dug in, with a treated back wall in the hill and then water proofed. This allows flat excavation and no load on floor so a typical 4" poured floor would suffice.

~6500 for materials (lumber for structure, roof and shingles)
~2500 4" floor poured
~1500 posts for frame
~1500 for flat excavation and removal (guessing on that price for now).
~2000 interior finished, osb and insulation, some basic shelves and bench.
~1000 for electrical and lights installed all diy (my dad can do all that)

So about ~15k vs ~20k for all poured cement and walls and that's accounting for the differing amounts if labor I could do not total costs if paid to have finished, just my prices. That seems like a better price to digest for a detached garage.

 

[Abeo]

My garage is on a slope (bought it that way). I have 4 foot poured walls, and 4 foot wood walls on top. I wish the builder went higher (I would have done 10 ft ceilings).
With the poured walls, I have half of the insulation, studs, drywall, etc for the walls than if it was built on a flat slab (making for less material costs). Being sunk into the ground also makes it cooler in the summer.
No real problems with water ingress either (after I landscaped and put a proper slope in).

 

[kbs2244]

Get comparative quotes for the other foundation ideas.

 

[PWC Repair]

dig the 8" trench around the perimeter for a mono slab would only take 2 or 3 hours for a building that size.

Come show me that neat trick in northern Arkansas lol!

 

[La Petite Tools]

You are likely going to regret not going 20 feet wide. I had a walled 16’ wide bay I built into my first workshop, and my only regret later was that it was not at least 20’ wide. Stuff along walls, open car door and squeeze to get out. Too narrow to work comfortably in.

I completely agree with this, I built a 16x20 shed with a garage door man door double door and gambrel roof with a loft and I don't do any wood working currently use it for storage of lawn mower/toys and tools and I wish I would have went at least 24'x24' did all the work myself with help from friends family, made the trusses all in all costs around $7500 4" slab with 16" footer around the perimeter due to code. With young kids (I only have 2) and any amount of toys (yours and kids) space goes away extremely quickly. i even have a 2 stall garage and a half storing stuff also.