Garage Lights: CFL vs: T8's, Help Me Decide!

[LifeLongWNYer]

Looking for advice here.

I'm getting ready to build a pole barn-type garage this summer and have been reading the many threads about lighting. WOW, talk about a lot of info!

I plan to have a storage bay, for parking in, and not doing much else, other than checking the oil before I pull out, plus another bay where I will be working on vehicles. Just mechanical work, no painting, or watch building, but stuff that does need good light. I'll also have a bench, which obviously needs really good light over it. Anyway, I was pretty much decided on lighting the building with varying densities of 32 watt T8 fluorescent fixtures. It seemed like everyone was agreed that it is the way to go.

THEN, yesterday, I stumbled onto the old and lengthy thread titled "Lighting and CLF" by a fellow named Veno. He started the thread several years ago, when he wrote about lighting his garage with CFL's. I was interested, and swayed, by the point that he kept checking back in and posting updates, and kept saying that he hasn't changed his mind. Several others chimed in that they used CFL's and love them. Now I'm having second thoughts about the T8's.

Without going into LED's and T12's and all the other types of lights available, can you guys give me some of the pro's and con's on the question of CFL's vs: T8's?

Thanks for the help!
JBP




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[Random Guy]

I'd go with T8. It'll be significantly more efficient, and cheaper to run overall. Bulbs will be cheaper, more available, and in a greater choice of color temperatures. Lamp life is longer, too. Since the light source is bigger, the shadows will be softer and less distracting.

 

[Sneeze357]

CFLs are meant for retrofitting old lights. There is no reason to use them for new installations. T8s are more efficient. And they probably last longer. A 32W T8 tube has more lumens than a 32W CFL.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

Okay, all good. Thanks.

One thing that I kind of like about the CFL's is that they come in a pretty wide variety of watt ages / light outputs. My HD and Lowes' both have them from 8 watts to 200 watts. If an area is too dark, or too bright, I can change the bulb and "fix it." T8's have several color temperatures, but most are 32 - 34 watts and thus their light output is pretty fixed.



.

 

[Sneeze357]

I suppose that is one advantage, but if you space the T8s correctly, there shouldn't be any dark spots. You can also get 4 foot T5s if you want more light in an area.

 

[ForceFed70]

The only advantage of a CFL is it's retrofit package.

T8 is more efficient, lights faster, and puts out a higher quality light. Plus - lumen for lumen it's not all that much more money.

 

[Highbeam]

CFLs are obsolete technology. They will be going away since LED are so much better as a retrofit. I would not invest in a CFL based lighting setup since when they stop making them, you'll be stuck.

The biggest reason that CFLs **** today, right now, is the slow warm up time in even decently warm weather. Another reason is that they hang down low like a big bee hive waiting to be smashed by a piece of lumber or something, what a mess that would be.

There is a reason that the supermarkets and walmarts of america use tubes, they're better.

 

[sands35]

Edison screw base bulbs are going to be around for a long, long time. The installed base is just way too big. Yes, LED bulbs are coming way down in price, but those are going to screw into the same base that has been around for a long long time.

Honestly, most people are over thinking this.

I've read through a lot of those threads and it doesn't have to be a science project.

It's nice to plan out a garage with where you want to do everything. However plans change and so will lighting needs.

Plan for flexibility / simplicity.

So more ceiling boxes and current capacity than you think you might need. If you are building new, it's more or less "free" to install another 10 ceiling boxes given the total cost and given then PITA factor of moving stuff later. (caveat - an open pole "attic" negates the flexibility comment)

I put in 25 ceiling boxes on about a 4.5' x 5' grid (garage is 26' x 32'). 3 circuits on 3 switches. Plan A is to use ceramic Edison bases since I got them on sale for $1.50 each with 100 Watt equivalent CFL bulbs. If I don't like that, then I'll install a few T8 or T5 fixtures over the work area. (track car and woodworking hobbies)

But with boxes installed on a grid, moving stuff around is trivial.

 

[tfinniii]

I have heard that CFL's with their base up tend to have a problem sooner than not. of course the quality of item makes a difference and check to see what temperature of bulb you will be happy with before buying a lot of.

 

[Highbeam]

Edison screw base bulbs are going to be around for a long, long time. The installed base is just way too big. Yes, LED bulbs are coming way down in price, but those are going to screw into the same base that has been around for a long long time.

I agree, the edison base will be around for a long time. It's the CFL that will go away. With it may go the wide selection of outputs and colors now available. The replacement device may not be available in such a broad variety.

Of course I do tend to think that the CFL won't completely go away, they will become rare, expensive, hard to find, and of limited selection.

 

[n8n]

CFLs are horrid. I'm so glad the new LED "bulbs" are starting to become affordable so I can get rid of CFLs.

In a large area such as a garage or warehouse the only real options are tubular fluorescent, or some kind of LED.

 

[Sneeze357]

I have heard that CFL's with their base up tend to have a problem sooner than not. of course the quality of item makes a difference and check to see what temperature of bulb you will be happy with before buying a lot of.

Yep, this tends to be a major problem. The ballast can't handle the heat. I use a lot of CFLs and the only one that has ever lasted as long as the package claims, is run base down, and never shut off.

It won't be long until LEDs are affordable enough to do a whole shop.

 

[RedDirtRoad]

I am renovating my new property now and starting in the garage.
I just installed T5HO lights. They are the brightest I have seen so far
A T5HO lamp is 5,000 lumens. A T8 is with high ballast factor is 3000 lumens
I have a 23x23 garage with (4) 4ft 2 lamp fixtures on the back wall, (4) 4ft 2 lamp fixtures on the front wall by garage doors and (2) 8ft 4 lamp fixtures in the middle I use when entering the garage. The 4ft fixtures are on 2 separate switches and used for task lighting. I have no shadows in my garage now.

 

[Georgia71]

I bought two of the T5HO light fixtures. They were 4 foot 2 bulb units. They didn't have a shade. My ceiling is 10 foot high. I didn't like the glare I got from them. I did like the bright lights. Before I tried these I thought you couldn't get too much light. But I think I will go with the 4 foot T8's as well.

 

[Sneeze357]

Consider led lights.
Cheaper, brighter, easier, quieter.

I read everything you read, and settled on these;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121319108021?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1426.l2649

Cheaper? Than what? That seems like a really really high price for chinese unbranded unknown quality. Those aren't really shop lights. LEDs aren't "brighter", they just use less power for the same output. You can achieve the same brightness with any type of light. The difference in power consumption from fluorescent to LED will not pay for itself.

 

[ddawg16]

Wow....a lot of mis-information on CFL's....excluding Sands....he has it right.

Click on the link in my signature...the one on my garage.....I have 16 6" recessed cans in the lower level of my garage.

Allow me to address some of the points....

1. Yes, T8's are more efficient than CFL....by maybe 10%

2. Yes, color and wattage options are a lot broader for CFL's. For a given T8 tube, your only option is color.

3. Yes, the older CFL's suffered from slow warm up times. The current batch are instant on.

4. I have 16 CFL's in my garage....in the past 5 years I have replaced one of the bulbs....and it was a used one I took from the house.

5. Yes, the Edison socket is going to be around for a LONG time. At the rate LED's are dropping...another 2-3 years and the prices are going to be close to CFL.

6. You can put recessed cans in places that no T8 can even think of fitting. In my case, I do a lot of wood working. It's nice knowing I'm not going to take out a tube swinging a 3x4 around.


I am very happy with my CFL setup. I wouldn't do it any different.

 

[Sneeze357]

I bought a sample lamp, and then purchased 20 more.

I don't know what 9000 watts of fluorescent costs. I bet the bulbs and fixtures were half what I paid.

I'm not sure where you are getting your numbers. You say you have 2000 watts of LEDs? That's going to be roughly equivalent to 2000 or 3000 watts of fluorescents. I don't care what fake china lumen number is quoted on ebay, 2000 watts of LED absolutely does not equal 9000 watts of fluorescents.

 

[shampoop]

I got some of these as a temporary fix for my garage. They're not a 40 watt incandescent equivalent, they're actually 40 watts. Made for photography, they're about being bright rather than saving money.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00E8T3LSW/?tag=atomicindus08-20

They're actually VERY bright and very white, a great upgrade for the average homeowner. However, the type of people this forum attracts, it's not good enough IMO, the light isn't nearly as even as it is with regular fluorescent and if you're installing new rather than retrofitting i agree that cfl's make no sense.

I'm eventually gonna install some nice t5ho fixtures or maybe some t8's not sure yet. I just need to worry about the rest of the house before I mess with the garage too much.

 

[Sneeze357]

That should have said 9000 lumen, not watts. Sorry.

I don't do the 'Chinese' argument.

I'm really not sure what your point is then. T8s are roughly 89 lumens/watt. LEDs are 90 lumens/watt if you believe the guy in China who made it up. And they cost significantly more. How are they better exactly?

 

[Sneeze357]

6. You can put recessed cans in places that no T8 can even think of fitting. In my case, I do a lot of wood working. It's nice knowing I'm not going to take out a tube swinging a 3x4 around.

Just because you have one, doesn't mean you can't have the other. In a typical shop, with a big flat ceiling to cover with lights, tubes make the most sense. If you have a weird little spot off to the side, of course you can add CFLs as needed.

In my shop I have metal halide, CFL, T8, T12, T12HO, and even LED. All living in harmony. There's even a few incandescents!

 

[ddawg16]

In my shop I have metal halide, CFL, T8, T12, T12HO, and even LED. All living in harmony. There's even a few incandescents!

Blasphemy................

 

[Sneeze357]

If you want to use CFLs, I have found these to be the most economical in 26 watt:
http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/2726/FC26-SMS41OD.html
(available in different color temperatures)
A 40w CFL cost more than double but gives you less light. Add socket splitters if you need to. This way if one breaks or dies, it's not as big a loss.

Unless you have many thousands of square feet to light, you probably won't notice much difference in your electric bill between different kinds of fluorescent and LEDs or MH.

 

[Highbeam]

Just because you have one, doesn't mean you can't have the other. In a typical shop, with a big flat ceiling to cover with lights, tubes make the most sense. If you have a weird little spot off to the side, of course you can add CFLs as needed.

In my shop I have metal halide, CFL, T8, T12, T12HO, and even LED. All living in harmony. There's even a few incandescents!

Good point Sneeze. I, of course, have the tube t8 fixtures on my 14 foot ceiling to light 1800SF but within my smaller mechanical room I used recessed cans equipped with LED can light reflector style bulbs. I love those LEDs for the cans.

I don not intend to ever buy another CFL anything. In my area the utility companies have subsidized LEDs to the point of being very close in cost to the CFLs. LEDs of course don't have the cold weather problems or the slow warm up problems.

 

[Highbeam]

I don't do the 'Chinese' argument.

Me either. If you don't ever buy anything from foreign countries then you are a liar or an idiot.

I do however believe that there are more scammers from those foreign places and that you need to be careful about being tricked.

 

[Paul1956]

I have 4 strategically placed electric outlets in the ceiling of my
20 x 18 garage.

The original plan was to use those for plugin fluorescent fixtures.

Until I get around to working on the garage I went with plug in
adapters in the outlets that I can screw bulbs into and went with
4 - 100 watt Sylvania LED bulbs.

Along with that is another dedicated light outlet where I have
another 100 watt Sylvania LED bulb for a total of 5 LED bulbs.

I was surprised at how well this simple setup lights up the garage;
however, I will still install a fixture directly over the workbench when
I get around to it.

For now the LEDs do the job and I may just stick with them.

 

[LifeLongWNYer]

Good info guys, and a lot of it. I'm still in a quandary over the CFL's over the T8's. It seemed that the vote here was about 3-1 in favor of the T8's but I'm saving the thread name and will do a post by post tally before I make any purchases.

Last Saturday, I hit both the local HD and Lowes as well as a wholesale lighting place ( very few garage lights, all interior home fixtures ) nearby, and all the two big boxes voted for T8's, while the wholesale outlet recommended the CFL's. Strange, the counter guy told me that the 1000 bulbs place that I see mentioned on here every once in a while is "usually" less expensive ( in a quantity ) than any place local.

One poster correctly noted that I was not considering LEDs. Around here, nobody that I've talked with is suggesting LEDs. A couple said "maybe in a few years, but not now." Several people have also told me that at this time, not very many places carry replacement tubes. Granted, I shouldn't need many, and probably none any for a long time. I am scared about the initial cost of getting on board the LED ship.

Thanks for the comments, guys, I appreciate the help.


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[jlckmj]

I am one of the people that used the 100 watt 400 watt equivalent CFL bulbs after reading the Veno thread, and I could not be happier.

Jim

 

[Highbeam]

It seemed that the vote here was about 3-1 in favor of the T8's but I'm saving the thread name and will do a post by post tally before I make any purchases..

You're taking a vote to make this decision? With no extra points for variable knowledge and experience of each voter? Yikes. I don't feel like my vote should be worth as much as a professional lighting designer that has set up dozens of shops but I do feel like I should get more points than a guy who has never done any. I suppose you have that in the back of your mind.

I also think that you can make either CFL or T8 perform extremely well. If you put enough lumens on the ground then you will be happy with candles. If you consider installation cost, or energy costs, or lifecycle costs then you can start to see one technology rising to the top. Also, this is not entirely objective. I place very little value in being able to easily change the color or output of my general overhead lighting, so that benefit of the CFL is wasted on me. Some folks really like that. Usually the ones that are afraid of commitment.

Also remember that there is general lighting and then there is task lighting. High intensity and high quality should be focused on those task lights.

 

[Paul1956]

It seemed that the vote here was about 3-1 in favor of the T8's but I'm saving the thread name and will do a post by post tally before I make any purchases.

Ultimately, you have to decide what is best for you... however, I don't think
doing a tally of the posts is a very good method to make that decision.

Keeping an open mind, exploring all the options and keeping in mind your own
personal criteria is the best way forward.

Personally, I don't like the warmup time with CFLs... I want the light when I
turn on the switch... not sometime later.

I have replaced all my kitchen and dining room lights with LEDs and have
several of them on dimmers. I am pleased with those results. Talk to me
in 20 years to see if the longevity factor played out.

 

[z28toz06]

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[JWCasciato]

I consistently try to NOT buy products made in China, but sometimes it's really tough to do. My aim is to buy AMERICAN first. I'm OK with products made in Canada, Mexico, Japan, Taiwan (not officially part of China) and a few other places, but I try to avoid ANYTHING from China!