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Garage Mini Split

Bigblue&Goldie

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I worked for one of the largest HVAC wholesalers in America; at $5k for a mini split system the contractor is walking away with at least a couple of grand in their pocket for the install. The profit isn't at the wholesale/distribution level, it's at the contractor level.
 
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TangoFoxTrot

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You know what, I am the guy. ;)

And believe me, I'm not desperate at all and my prices are at par with the competition.

I would feel like one hell of a crook if I sold my mini-splits for 5k... Even the high end ones!

So break that down for us if you don't mind.

What is your price for the unit? And then what is your labor?

In Canadian dollars, something like a Mitsubishi Mr. Slim has to be around $2,000.

At least around here, no legit HVAC contractor would do a turnkey install of a mini split with a 10 year warranty for $2,500.
 

SteveV

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I worked for one of the largest HVAC wholesalers in America; at $5k for a mini split system the contractor is walking away with at least a couple of grand in their pocket for the install. The profit isn't at the wholesale/distribution level, it's at the contractor level.



Of course it's at the contractor level, they rip people off no matter what the kind of system it is.

That's why they fight like hell to not let places sell to the general public.

I got a quote for a $1,700 mini split and they wanted $6,000 total for the install. I could hire a guy for an entire week for that markup.


$100 an hour x 40 hours = $4,000 labor

But that sort of obscene markup is par for the course when it comes to AC work.

That why more and more people are DIY on this.
 

Ohmthis

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There isn't any black magic to this stuff. But, most manufacturers require a license to get the warranty. That puts it out of the hands of normal DIY guys and gals. The tools for a proper install aren't cheap either. Business ethics may be different between countries, but $5000 for a 12btu system is robbery to me and I do this work.
 

justinjoyal

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So break that down for us if you don't mind.



What is your price for the unit? And then what is your labor?



In Canadian dollars, something like a Mitsubishi Mr. Slim has to be around $2,000.



At least around here, no legit HVAC contractor would do a turnkey install of a mini split with a 10 year warranty for $2,500.



I am not going to spill my beans here. :)

Mr Slim units are more expensive (that would explain why they're nowhere to be found around where I live). I've said this before here, but I really don't understand why it seems that's all Americans (at least on this site) can get. Everywhere you read about Mitsubishi, Mitsubishi, Mitsubishi... Like there's no other good brand out there!

(But even Mr Slims would cost less than 5k here.)

We've installed units from other big hvac players @ roughly 2800$ a pop with a 10 yr warranty and most are still up and running after the warranty expires. Call backs are few. Most customers are totally satisfied. What more can you ask for? :)

I'm always freaked out when I read about people getting quotes for 5-6k for simple mini-splits!
 

MushCreek

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I was quoted $7K for two Mitsubishi HyperHeat units, turn-key. I bought them on-line, did the grunt work myself, and paid a licensed A/C contractor to do the final commissioning. My total cost was $4K for two units, so I saved $3K.
 

Big Daddy Chop Shop

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You have got to love all the contractor bashing.

Are there some unscrupulous contractors? Sure are, just like there are some dishonest cops. Not all of them though.

Most local contractors operate on a 10-15% margin. The "big boys" are higher, but that is to be expected. Higher overhead, more office staff, usually newer, nicer vehicles, advertising, etc, etc.

I am fortunate to know how the business runs, not just from the technician side but also from the office side. We give away a TON of jobs, and often cut bills, etc, simply because the customer doesn't feel good or doesn't want to pay. Usually we did nothing incorrect.

As far as doing the install yourself and hiring a contractor to commission it? Sure, go for it. But its kinda like buying a mower at Lowes and then expecting the local dealer to take care of warranty issues. He may, but you likely won't be at the top of his list.

You see, the reason for mark up on labor and parts is to cover the write-offs, the warranty that the supply house won't stand behind, the free-bee call to tell you the stat is set to "off". If a contractor is charging $100/ hr, the tech is making about $30/hr. The burden labor rate is around $80-85/ hr (that includes the truck, the tools, the gas, the office overhead).

If you don't like my recommendations that is cool. Mini- splits are a service NIGHTMARE- no one enjoys working on them. Sometimes, as I have stated, they are a good solution. I was thinking you all would go for packaged solutions since I figured few people on here have the tools (torch, vac pump, micron gauge, etc) to do the job, and fewer yet actually know how to use them properly. Perhaps I am wrong.

I stand by this though, a conventional split is always cheaper. ALWAYS. They can be installed in attics, sat on the floor or hung horizontally. Easier and cheaper to have repaired. You get SUPERIOR filtration with a LARGE variety of filters (including carbon to get rid of all those "garagy" smells). Not on a Mini-split. You can add an electronic air cleaner if you desire (not a fan, lots are), a humidifier, and on and on, to a conventional split.

Same song and dance for the packaged convertible units. But all that was heard was "Mini- splits ****, get a PTAC". That was not the point. The point is, explore your options. Mini-splits are not, in MY OPINION, a good choice for a working shop.
PTACs aren't either, but at least you just cut the hold, slide them in, plug them in, and done.

Old home Hot water retrofits- Go mini-split (these systems are not really common around here, and I tend to forget they are in some places).

Its like this, I have been to huge, gigantic churches that have 30 split systems and a couple dozen roof top units. You try to tell them a Chiller is the way to go......but often people are comfortable with what they know, despite better, cheaper, more cost effective solutions.
 

Big Daddy Chop Shop

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You have got to love all the contractor bashing.

Are there some unscrupulous contractors? Sure are, just like there are some dishonest cops. Not all of them though.

Most local contractors operate on a 10-15% margin. The "big boys" are higher, but that is to be expected. Higher overhead, more office staff, usually newer, nicer vehicles, advertising, etc, etc.

I am fortunate to know how the business runs, not just from the technician side but also from the office side. We give away a TON of jobs, and often cut bills, etc, simply because the customer doesn't feel good or doesn't want to pay. Usually we did nothing incorrect.

As far as doing the install yourself and hiring a contractor to commission it? Sure, go for it. But its kinda like buying a mower at Lowes and then expecting the local dealer to take care of warranty issues. He may, but you likely won't be at the top of his list.

You see, the reason for mark up on labor and parts is to cover the write-offs, the warranty that the supply house won't stand behind, the free-bee call to tell you the stat is set to "off". If a contractor is charging $100/ hr, the tech is making about $30/hr. The burden labor rate is around $80-85/ hr (that includes the truck, the tools, the gas, the office overhead).

If you don't like my recommendations that is cool. Mini- splits are a service NIGHTMARE- no one enjoys working on them. Sometimes, as I have stated, they are a good solution. I was thinking you all would go for packaged solutions since I figured few people on here have the tools (torch, vac pump, micron gauge, etc) to do the job, and fewer yet actually know how to use them properly. Perhaps I am wrong.

I stand by this though, a conventional split is always cheaper. ALWAYS. They can be installed in attics, sat on the floor or hung horizontally. Easier and cheaper to have repaired. You get SUPERIOR filtration with a LARGE variety of filters (including carbon to get rid of all those "garagy" smells). Not on a Mini-split. You can add an electronic air cleaner if you desire (not a fan, lots are), a humidifier, and on and on, to a conventional split.

Same song and dance for the packaged convertible units. But all that was heard was "Mini- splits ****, get a PTAC". That was not the point. The point is, explore your options. Mini-splits are not, in MY OPINION, a good choice for a working shop.
PTACs aren't either, but at least you just cut the hold, slide them in, plug them in, and done.

Old home Hot water retrofits- Go mini-split (these systems are not really common around here, and I tend to forget they are in some places).

Its like this, I have been to huge, gigantic churches that have 30 split systems and a couple dozen roof top units. You try to tell them a Chiller is the way to go......but often people are comfortable with what they know, despite better, cheaper, more cost effective solutions.
 

TangoFoxTrot

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I am not going to spill my beans here. :)

Mr Slim units are more expensive (that would explain why they're nowhere to be found around where I live). I've said this before here, but I really don't understand why it seems that's all Americans (at least on this site) can get. Everywhere you read about Mitsubishi, Mitsubishi, Mitsubishi... Like there's no other good brand out there!

(But even Mr Slims would cost less than 5k here.)

We've installed units from other big hvac players @ roughly 2800$ a pop with a 10 yr warranty and most are still up and running after the warranty expires. Call backs are few. Most customers are totally satisfied. What more can you ask for? :)

I'm always freaked out when I read about people getting quotes for 5-6k for simple mini-splits!


$2,500 Canadian is like $1,900 in US dollars. Only "Craigslist" type outfits will do it out the door that cheaply.

Why not tell us what brand you use? How is that a "trade secret"?

I was only mentioning the Mitsubishi because it''s probably the most well known brand and what most contractors use for mini splits. Their priced pretty close to the other quality established brands like Daikin, Fujitsu etc. Most of their stuff would be around $2,500 canadian just for the unit itself.


I agree that $5k is over the top for most installs, but that range is far more common than $1,900 out the door that you're quoting. :dunno: Don't shoot the messenger, I've see it firsthand.
 

justinjoyal

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$2,500 Canadian is like $1,900 in US dollars. Only "Craigslist" type outfits will do it out the door that cheaply.



Why not tell us what brand you use? How is that a "trade secret"?



I was only mentioning the Mitsubishi because it''s probably the most well known brand and what most contractors use for mini splits. Their priced pretty close to the other quality established brands like Daikin, Fujitsu etc. Most of their stuff would be around $2,500 canadian just for the unit itself.





I agree that $5k is over the top for most installs, but that range is far more common than $1,900 out the door that you're quoting. :dunno: Don't shoot the messenger, I've see it firsthand.


What we install now is Gree. I would say they're the Hyundais of mini-splits:

They're one of the top a/c makers worldwide, they have very efficient high end products, as well as lower end stuff for tighter budgets.

They are also similar to Hyundai because some people will refuse to buy them because it's not one of the Top 3 name they're used to hear about (even though it really is a huge player worldwide.)

We've been installing Gree units for 2-3 years now, customers are very satisfied, and so am I. Before that it was mostly Fujitsu, a bit of LG... Pricing was about the same, a bit higher maybe but not that much.

I actually got rid of my fujitsu at home to make place for a Gree which performs better and has more useful features for me...

I would sell a similar spec'ed fujitsu mini-split about 800$ more these days. Still far from 5k though!

Also, the USD/CND comparison is probably not as simple as just using the exchange rate.
 
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AZpilot

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Finally got a tracking number from the seller. After asking to speak to a manager. Being put on hold until I hang up and call screening is not a good customer service tool. My call was only answered after I called from a co-workers phone. I am thinking that Ingram Water and Air does not stock a thing. Paid May 4th, shipped May 16th. Will not receive until May 23-25. Not exactly the five days that was in the ebay ad. After looking at Google maps this outfit is a call center that buys from the manufacturer. Just hope it gets here.
 

manwithtools

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I've bought several splits and one package from Ingrams. They are based in Paduka, KY but have a stocking warehouse in Clarksville, TN. Generally they have shipped very quickly, sorry to hear your experience has been less satisfactory.
 
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AZpilot

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I've bought several splits and one package from Ingrams. They are based in Paduka, KY but have a stocking warehouse in Clarksville, TN. Generally they have shipped very quickly, sorry to hear your experience has been less satisfactory.

I understand lack of stock. I don't understand not answering the phone and lack of communication. When they did speak to me I had no worries. When they started screening my calls I worried and thought about cancelling the transaction. The telling point for me was when I asked if they had a unit close to what I bought in stock. They skipped that question and called the mfr. about shipping. So either they don't stock much or don't stock what they sell on ebay. Which is fine of they would just explain that. But they get you to buy, take money right away and don't provide the item in time as described in the auction.
 

cre73

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Surprising regarding Ingrams, my service before and after the sale was more than adequate. I bothered one guy continually through emails and always got a response. Even when I asked a stupid obvious question regarding something I missed in the manual.

Mine showed up to days sooner than expected, kinda of a pain had to rearrange my day but oh well.
 
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AZpilot

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Received a call from the shipper (Fedex Freight) to schedule a delivery. That is awesome news. The Phoenix spring weather has been great this year (below 100) but that will not hold out. Getting this AC install done will allow me to keep working in the garage.
 

dsimatt

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What we install now is Gree. I would say they're the Hyundais of mini-splits:

They're one of the top a/c makers worldwide, they have very efficient high end products, as well as lower end stuff for tighter budgets.

They are also similar to Hyundai because some people will refuse to buy them because it's not one of the Top 3 name they're used to hear about (even though it really is a huge player worldwide.)

QUOTE]

The problem is I've looked at gree online and their prices are great but the nearest installer is not even in the same state unless you go thru a home depot installer and I'm not going to do that.

Living in the Mid West we are behind on the mini split movement but the last few years I've been seeing a lot more units on different building but around here I'd say 90% is Mitsubishi and they have the best dealer network.
 

andre3k

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Jun 16, 2010
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What we install now is Gree. I would say they're the Hyundais of mini-splits:

They're one of the top a/c makers worldwide, they have very efficient high end products, as well as lower end stuff for tighter budgets.

They are also similar to Hyundai because some people will refuse to buy them because it's not one of the Top 3 name they're used to hear about (even though it really is a huge player worldwide.)

We've been installing Gree units for 2-3 years now, customers are very satisfied, and so am I.

I think people are really sleeping on the Gree systems. I just finished installing mine and found a tech to pressure test, vacuum and release the refrigerant for $75. He was here less than an hour. The install and instruction manuals were clear and easy to understand. I ordered mine from ecomfort.com. This is the 21seer Vireo system. They guy that finished up my install said it was the second Gree that he had come across and was really impressed with the build quality. This one isn't cooling my whole garage, just a 13x13 room for my gun and reloading gear.

16a7d89213cdefd5d74a2babc836256e.jpg

d8210e14e42a959ea0cd7e121ceac846.jpg



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Furious Filipino

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Late to the party, but I just signed up to the forums. Just recently finished a 120 sq. ft. detached shed/studio and decided on a ductless mini split. 9,000 BTU unit came out to $1800 installed. $900 of that was for installation parts and labor.

If I had known what I know now, especially when renovating older houses, I could have easily saved myself $50k on our home's purchase price and nearly doubled that by buying a similar sized home without a central air system and opted for a 2-3 zone ductless mini split with a whole house fan instead.

Just my $0.02, but with the cost of housing now and the condition the shacks, I mean fixer uppers, on offer, an extra $25k for a ducted central air system for your typical 1200-1600sq.t. house vs. $10k for a 4-5 zone mini split system with 2 exterior condenser units is something I will take for my next income property. Not only is the install easier, you save a pile of headaches in making a closet for the HVAC unit and/or getting additional structural if the only place to put the HVAC unit is on your roof (much much uglier than two 2' x 3' condensers if you ask me).

I get the arguments from a commercial standpoint against a mini split, but if you're building from the ground up, then go central air, but if it's an addition/auxiliary space, then I'd go mini split over window (ugly, cheap) or PTAC (ugly, cheap, uses floor space).
 

Furious Filipino

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I think people are really sleeping on the Gree systems. I just finished installing mine and found a tech to pressure test, vacuum and release the refrigerant for $75. He was here less than an hour. The install and instruction manuals were clear and easy to understand. I ordered mine from ecomfort.com. This is the 21seer Vireo system. They guy that finished up my install said it was the second Gree that he had come across and was really impressed with the build quality. This one isn't cooling my whole garage, just a 13x13 room for my gun and reloading gear.

16a7d89213cdefd5d74a2babc836256e.jpg

d8210e14e42a959ea0cd7e121ceac846.jpg



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Similar unit I had installed after talking to a friend who does lots of business travelling back and forth to Taiwan and Hong Kong. It seems Gree fairly well in use in China. He's taken pictures of some 4 and 5 star hotels with Gree mini split systems.
 

whatuusay1

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I put in 3 LG systems myself (had an HVAC company vacuum and connect the linesets) and they have worked flawless, very pleased. I get they might not be the best for every scenario but for what most people are using them for here (occasional heat/cool garages/shops etc) they work extremely well. I would hate working in my garage/shop mid july/aug without my mini-split :)

Don't be afraid of the DIY install, very easy - it cost me $100-150 to have the units connected (each as they were done at separate times\locations). I think i paid $1700 each (2ton heat/cool units). I didn't even bother getting HVAC quotes, no way they would come close and it would be way out of my budget to pay 5-6k each.

- Andrew
 

Ohmthis

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Read the directions on the vacuum part. If it says to pull down to 500 microns (just an example) make sure they have a micron gauge and watch it sit at 500 or lower for 15-30 min. This is the only way to tell that there are no leaks and all of the moisture is out.
 
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AZpilot

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Thanks for the heads up. My outdoor unit needs to be replaced first. Smashed fins. I did receive the Diamondback line set and the yellow jacket premium flaring tool.
 

tab2

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Well this thread took a lot longer to get to where it is than I thought it would be...

I am going to be in the same boat soon, installing myself, having a contractor vacuum and release the refrigerant on a 2 zone Mitsubishi. I am starting to order all the other parts other than the outdoor & indoor units. Do you have a good source for the Diamondback linesets? There seem to be a lot of bad reviews on the JMF sets that most sell online.
 

dsimatt

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I agree totally. This week things should move along.

I look forward to seeing how your project goes and how it performs for you since i'm leaning more towards mini splits in my house in the future.
 
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AZpilot

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Have the weekend off so it's install time. Finally. Got started with the pad today. In the right corner of the picture you can see where I am getting 220 from.


1981 Cherokee Chiefcc4dfe6527028adc03c0ff4be41d1a0d.jpg
 
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tab2

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Did you get anything done this weekend on it? I'm anxiously watching, I pulled the trigger on a Mitsubishi dual zone today.
 

Rurdy17

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My 24k pioneer unit arrives tomorrow. West side of Pheonix. Doing complete install myself . Going to rent new autozone vaccum pump and pull vaccum for an hour then fill with 150psi of 100% argon for leak check. Then having ac tech come double check and pull final vaccum .
 

Fixin'Stuff

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HotterNHellHouston
My 24k pioneer unit arrives tomorrow. West side of Pheonix. Doing complete install myself . Going to rent new autozone vaccum pump and pull vaccum for an hour then fill with 150psi of 100% argon for leak check. Then having ac tech come double check and pull final vaccum .

Make sure that you have the correct fitting for the vacuum pump. IIRC, the fitting for R134A is not the same size as the fitting for home systems. That may have changed with the newer refrigerants for home systems, but I wouldn't bet on it. ;)
 

irritant

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I have three Mitsubishi inside units that I worked with an AC contractor to install. It's an old house with open high ceilings. No attic space. We went with Mitsubishi Mr. Slim units. I ran all the line sets, condensate and power, poured the slab. The contractor came in an installed the air handlers and set the condensing unit. During the final hookup of the line sets, the shortest set was determined to have a leak when they couldn't pull a vacuum on it.
It turned out the Mitsubishi Diamondback line set had a cold seam on one of the lines. The contractor ended up replacing that set and all worked out well.
I was surprised that the copper line exhibited such bad workmanship! I'm grateful that it wasn't on one of the longer runs as they were substantially longer runs (50' & 80')

For what it is worth, Trane mini-splits are rebranded Gree units. I am in the process of building a 30 X 50 Shop and I intend to use mini splits to cool it. Frankly, after installing the Mitsubishi units, I have some thoughts about removing the 2.5 ton unit conventional split and replacing it with mini splits. The outside condensing unit is substantially narrower (but taller) and is absolutely silent.

As a former contractor, I do have to agree with some of what a previous poster stated. I based my prices on the desire to make a profit, not on how much I could gouge the customer for. I planned to honor the product warranty, do the install in the most professional job possible and be there for any issue the customer had. It was my position to give the customer an estimate, if they didn't use me, that was fine, but if they felt the need to call me up and berate me for my pricing, Id let them have it. I think most people have very little understanding of what costs are involved in playing by the rules. (experience, licensing, gen. liability, workers comp, benefits, living wages for employees, e-verify, etc).

So, you've figured out a backdoor and can buy your AC online and not get shut out at the local Johnstone... Like I told customers who gave me the line: "I can buy that system on the internet for half the price.." : Go to the manufactures website and see if they honor the warranty for internet sales.
Fortunately for my line of work, the reputable manufactures all adopted internet sales policies that invalidated warranties on equipment sold from known internet re-sellers.
 

EarlyBroncoGuy

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Couple of quick questions - for a 2400 sq ft shop (insulated metal building, no interior dividing walls or attic space), what would be the better type of system - large mini-split (or 2 or 3 small) or conventional system? I use the building as storage and work space for my projects, it's no fun being out there sweating my *** off in Texas, in July and August.

Wall space is not a problem, outside space is not a problem, 16 foot high ceiling so ducting can be run if needed. I realize mini-splits are best used for cooling specific "zones" or rooms, but this is one big open space, 40 feet x 60 feet x 16 feet high. Walls and ceiling are insulated with fiberglass, probably not as much as a typical house but it's better than nothing.

I'm not looking to get it meat-locker cold in there when it's 105 degrees outside, but just to be able to knock down the air temp into the 80's and humidity down to where I'm not dripping sweat would be awesome.

What is a PTAC?
 

irritant

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I didn't google PTAC, but think hotel AC unit. Like a giant window shaker.

For your application, I'd probably look at a conventional split system. They're cheap(er)and relatively easy to service. I would suggest looking at making sure your insulation is better. I'm watching some guys install a 30X50 building on my property today and I know that if I am going to consider cooling this building, or even working in it, I really want to look at a full envelope of isocene foam. I think if you unsulated really well, youd be surprised at how little cooling is required and how much cooling energy youd save.
 
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