Garage Mini Split

[tab2]

Did you get his baby up and running?

 

[JGoodish]

So, you've figured out a backdoor and can buy your AC online and not get shut out at the local Johnstone... Like I told customers who gave me the line: "I can buy that system on the internet for half the price.." : Go to the manufactures website and see if they honor the warranty for internet sales.
Fortunately for my line of work, the reputable manufactures all adopted internet sales policies that invalidated warranties on equipment sold from known internet re-sellers.

So you did some of the work, but don't like it when other people do some of the work? Or do you just not like it when other people supply the materials which you would otherwise make easy money on with a markup?

It's the latter which really irritates me about contractors, especially ones who won't separate the labor quote from their materials quote. I have no problem paying a reasonable rate for labor. A contractor often provides no value by supplying the materials at a markup when I could order online (for from the local lumber yard) and have materials dropped at my door for significantly less than the contractor would charge.

If a contractor has so much work that he can afford to turn down a job because I want to supply the materials, well then I say good for him. Hope he never hits a downturn, because folks like me probably won't call him again.

The manufacturers who won't honor warranties when bought online (or, in some cases, from actual dealers outside of a local area) are simply supporting a scam which serves no purposes other than to line dealer pockets with margin for doing essentially nothing.


JKG

 

[floridafarmer]

After a few weeks of study and research, I pulled the trigger on a 2 ton Daikin mini-split heat pump for my 1100 sf partially insulated workshop and so far it's great. Inside temps are steady at 74 or so from a 90 but I think the drop in humidity is what makes a big difference. Can't hear it run and I pray it's not going to bankrupt me with a big power bill surprise.
I wish I would have done it years ago....
I had a local guy install with my help - cut me a little break and full warranty.
Here's the before and after

 

[mharris2007]

So you did some of the work, but don't like it when other people do some of the work? Or do you just not like it when other people supply the materials which you would otherwise make easy money on with a markup?

It's the latter which really irritates me about contractors, especially ones who won't separate the labor quote from their materials quote. I have no problem paying a reasonable rate for labor. A contractor often provides no value by supplying the materials at a markup when I could order online (for from the local lumber yard) and have materials dropped at my door for significantly less than the contractor would charge.

If a contractor has so much work that he can afford to turn down a job because I want to supply the materials, well then I say good for him. Hope he never hits a downturn, because folks like me probably won't call him again.

The manufacturers who won't honor warranties when bought online (or, in some cases, from actual dealers outside of a local area) are simply supporting a scam which serves no purposes other than to line dealer pockets with margin for doing essentially nothing.


JKG

Yes! This x 1000!

 

[-Brent-]

So you did some of the work, but don't like it when other people do some of the work? Or do you just not like it when other people supply the materials which you would otherwise make easy money on with a markup?

It's the latter which really irritates me about contractors, especially ones who won't separate the labor quote from their materials quote. I have no problem paying a reasonable rate for labor. A contractor often provides no value by supplying the materials at a markup when I could order online (for from the local lumber yard) and have materials dropped at my door for significantly less than the contractor would charge.

If a contractor has so much work that he can afford to turn down a job because I want to supply the materials, well then I say good for him. Hope he never hits a downturn, because folks like me probably won't call him again.

The manufacturers who won't honor warranties when bought online (or, in some cases, from actual dealers outside of a local area) are simply supporting a scam which serves no purposes other than to line dealer pockets with margin for doing essentially nothing.


JKG

Even as a person that made a living (for a while) in this scenario - I wholeheartedly agree.

 

[unknownshooter]

So, you've figured out a backdoor and can buy your AC online and not get shut out at the local Johnstone... Like I told customers who gave me the line: "I can buy that system on the internet for half the price.." : Go to the manufactures website and see if they honor the warranty for internet sales.
Fortunately for my line of work, the reputable manufactures all adopted internet sales policies that invalidated warranties on equipment sold from known internet re-sellers.

I'm actually grateful that 18+ years ago, when my parents were building their home, they got insanely high quotes from all of the local hvac guys - we're talking $9k for a cheesy $600 low-efficiency furnace & ductwork (no a/c even, just a cheap furnace). Those quotes forced me to look for what at the time was *one* dude in my state selling hvac equipment at something fairly close to wholesale. Dad bought a high-efficiency furnace, a/c unit and ductwork from him and had it delivered for under two grand.

When everything came in, we were flummoxed about how to set-up the ductwork, so we went to visit the seller at his shop & he gave us both about a two-hour course in "knocking tin". He showed us on a display how the final product should look, how to assemble the trunk lines, how to do returns & how to cut a circle in a piece of tin. Dad and I spent about a week putting everything in (after working our "real" jobs all day) - we called one of the local guys to do the a/c line set & you could tell from the half-assed way they ran the lines they were pissed about our "self install".

Fast forward 15 years, and the a/c unit failed - at this point, I'm in another state & dad didn't feel like doing the work himself, so he calls the local guy who installed the line set to get a quote for a new a/c unit. the guy actually commented on how the a/c lines weren't really run that well (not straightened on straight runs, subject to vibration where they crossed the ductwork, the joints at the indoor coil coming in at an angle & just filled with brazing material) - the guy's face fell when dad told him the line set was run by *your firm*.

Dad then pointed to the water heater, grabbed his level & showed the guy how the black pipe that *we* had run for the natural gas to the unit was both level & plumb, while the actual water piping that went to the unit looked like a D.I.Y nightmare - it was all crooked & looked half-assed - was also done by this man's crew.

Not too long after installing dad's hvac, I got married - and my wife had purchased a new home shortly before our marriage, and borrowed $12,000+ to have a "top of the line" furnace & a/c unit installed in her house, with an extended warranty, humidifier, fancy filters, etc. - that unit failed multiple times over it's first couple years of life & we ended up heating the entire 2,000 sq/ft two-story house with a gas-log for a couple 2-5 day stretches of time while the "licensed pros" threw part after part at the unit - several times they replaced the same part again and again, claiming the new parts were "defective"..

So now, I do my own stuff. Life has taught me that no one cares if I'm hot or cold as much as I do, even if I give them a huge stack of $100 bills to try to buy that loyalty.

Paying top dollar for the same tools the hvac guys use *isn't * a deterrent to doing my own work with the memory of sleeping in a 40-degree house burned into my psyche. Nor is a "warranty" - I've read the fine print & I know from experience that I can't possibly screw up or do a worse job than the "pros" do routinely. The fine print with all of the major a/c manufacturers specifies that the "warranty" is pretty much parts-only, and that isn't worth much when the labor you're *still* paying for is "Starbucks barista level training" at over a hundred bucks an hour. The one time I had to call a "pro" here in Phoenix, he spent hours on the phone with the manufacturer's tech support arguing with them (cussed at them and hung up at one point!), eventually finding a broken thermostat wire & charged me nearly $800 for his "services".

Moving from a cold climate to a hot one, I had to research & learn the "black art" of heat-pumps & the more I learned, the less-impressed I was when looking over how the "pros" do installs here. Goobers rule in Phoenix - if you own a house here, the a/c is most likely the wrong size & poorly installed.

I wish there way a way to separate the good guys from the goobers in the trade, until there is - I'll be buying all my hvac stuff online & hacking it in myself.

 

[chrispyny]

HOT DOG!

Well put sir. I'll be doing my own mitsu ductless mini split this spring. Very very excited to have a/c that isn't a window shaker in the summer, which iwll be dead quiet, efficient as heck, and easy on the eyes!
If that works well on one side of the house, the other side(bedrooms) will get the same treatment..

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Read the directions on the vacuum part. If it says to pull down to 500 microns (just an example) make sure they have a micron gauge and watch it sit at 500 or lower for 15-30 min. This is the only way to tell that there are no leaks and all of the moisture is out.

I must have replied to at least 10 other HVAC threads about this and I wonder how many more times this completely incorrect info will be repeated.

YOU CANNOT USE VACUUM TO LEAK CHECK

Tommy

 

[mharris2007]

I'm actually grateful that 18+ years ago, when my parents were building their home, they got insanely high quotes from all of the local hvac guys - we're talking $9k for a cheesy $600 low-efficiency furnace & ductwork (no a/c even, just a cheap furnace). Those quotes forced me to look for what at the time was *one* dude in my state selling hvac equipment at something fairly close to wholesale. Dad bought a high-efficiency furnace, a/c unit and ductwork from him and had it delivered for under two grand.

When everything came in, we were flummoxed about how to set-up the ductwork, so we went to visit the seller at his shop & he gave us both about a two-hour course in "knocking tin". He showed us on a display how the final product should look, how to assemble the trunk lines, how to do returns & how to cut a circle in a piece of tin. Dad and I spent about a week putting everything in (after working our "real" jobs all day) - we called one of the local guys to do the a/c line set & you could tell from the half-assed way they ran the lines they were pissed about our "self install".

Fast forward 15 years, and the a/c unit failed - at this point, I'm in another state & dad didn't feel like doing the work himself, so he calls the local guy who installed the line set to get a quote for a new a/c unit. the guy actually commented on how the a/c lines weren't really run that well (not straightened on straight runs, subject to vibration where they crossed the ductwork, the joints at the indoor coil coming in at an angle & just filled with brazing material) - the guy's face fell when dad told him the line set was run by *your firm*.

Dad then pointed to the water heater, grabbed his level & showed the guy how the black pipe that *we* had run for the natural gas to the unit was both level & plumb, while the actual water piping that went to the unit looked like a D.I.Y nightmare - it was all crooked & looked half-assed - was also done by this man's crew.

Not too long after installing dad's hvac, I got married - and my wife had purchased a new home shortly before our marriage, and borrowed $12,000+ to have a "top of the line" furnace & a/c unit installed in her house, with an extended warranty, humidifier, fancy filters, etc. - that unit failed multiple times over it's first couple years of life & we ended up heating the entire 2,000 sq/ft two-story house with a gas-log for a couple 2-5 day stretches of time while the "licensed pros" threw part after part at the unit - several times they replaced the same part again and again, claiming the new parts were "defective"..

So now, I do my own stuff. Life has taught me that no one cares if I'm hot or cold as much as I do, even if I give them a huge stack of $100 bills to try to buy that loyalty.

Paying top dollar for the same tools the hvac guys use *isn't * a deterrent to doing my own work with the memory of sleeping in a 40-degree house burned into my psyche. Nor is a "warranty" - I've read the fine print & I know from experience that I can't possibly screw up or do a worse job than the "pros" do routinely. The fine print with all of the major a/c manufacturers specifies that the "warranty" is pretty much parts-only, and that isn't worth much when the labor you're *still* paying for is "Starbucks barista level training" at over a hundred bucks an hour. The one time I had to call a "pro" here in Phoenix, he spent hours on the phone with the manufacturer's tech support arguing with them (cussed at them and hung up at one point!), eventually finding a broken thermostat wire & charged me nearly $800 for his "services".

Moving from a cold climate to a hot one, I had to research & learn the "black art" of heat-pumps & the more I learned, the less-impressed I was when looking over how the "pros" do installs here. Goobers rule in Phoenix - if you own a house here, the a/c is most likely the wrong size & poorly installed.

I wish there way a way to separate the good guys from the goobers in the trade, until there is - I'll be buying all my hvac stuff online & hacking it in myself.

I love it so much!

 

[justinjoyal]

So you did some of the work, but don't like it when other people do some of the work? Or do you just not like it when other people supply the materials which you would otherwise make easy money on with a markup?



It's the latter which really irritates me about contractors, especially ones who won't separate the labor quote from their materials quote. I have no problem paying a reasonable rate for labor. A contractor often provides no value by supplying the materials at a markup when I could order online (for from the local lumber yard) and have materials dropped at my door for significantly less than the contractor would charge.



If a contractor has so much work that he can afford to turn down a job because I want to supply the materials, well then I say good for him. Hope he never hits a downturn, because folks like me probably won't call him again.



The manufacturers who won't honor warranties when bought online (or, in some cases, from actual dealers outside of a local area) are simply supporting a scam which serves no purposes other than to line dealer pockets with margin for doing essentially nothing.





JKG

You probably never ran a business.

How do you think the work truck is paid for? Maybe even a trailer?

How do you think all the tools are paid for? The license(s), permits, etc.? Insurance, the accountant, the occasionnal call-back/sub-paid warranty work?

When you drive over to someone's place for a quote, who pays for that? Who pays for that much needed cell phone? The office supplies, the business cards, maybe some advertising?

All the installation supplies that are needed on various jobs, who pays for them?

When people call you on weekends, holidays, nights, early mornings. When you got a problem somewhere and can't sleep because you can't stop thinking about it, people say that's part of running a business. Well, yeah, but i'm not gonna make up with all that for nothing.

Just a little food for thoughts...

 

[countrysquire]

Until I read this thread, I had never heard the term 'window shaker'. Must be a regional thing.


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[AZpilot]

So sorry for not keeping this up. I installed myself and had a pro friend do the initial vacuum on it. Got it down to 180 microns for half an hour. The leak check went fine as well. Did the wiring myself after the "electrician" I hired did not know how to do a 1 phase two power wire output. Been running for awhile now. Anything from 90-105 is about 20 bucks a month. 105 and up is usually 30 bucks a month. But I like it cool while I am working. I want to thank all those that helped with their advice. I apologize for being late in saying thanks. The biggest kick I got was the nod from the a/c guy that I had done quality work by the manual. As a 30 year aircraft mechanic that is what I strive to do.

 

[theoldwizard1]

What was your logic about not going right through the wall with the line set ?

 

[driftpin]

I guess he had a long separation from the outside compressor to the inside blower/air handler, and perhaps an interior wall between their respective locations?

I used the same Geartrack over my workbench, a Whirlpool Corp. product I have found very useful.

What was your logic about not going right through the wall with the line set ?

 

[AZpilot]

What was your logic about not going right through the wall with the line set ?

The HOA was the big one. The other was actual placement of power access and mobility. I will be installing a line set cover this week or next.


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[AZpilot]

A question, Do mini splits always run? They do not turn on and off like a/c systems we are used to?

 

[Ohmthis]

The indoor fan will run constantly. The compressor and outdoor fan will run when called to.

 

[dsimatt]

A question, Do mini splits always run? They do not turn on and off like a/c systems we are used to?

My mitsubishi unit is always running as long as it's in a mode, the outdoor unit when I've noticed it will barely be turning the fan unless it needs to meet demand and then it speeds up.

 

[MushCreek]

My Mits runs all the time, as long as it's on, both inside and out.

 

[NuthinFancy]

Congratulations on getting the system up and going.
I'm thinking of using a mini-split for my workshop and have been following the m/s threads with interest (and occasional amusement) to learn what to look for and what to avoid.

I'm curious about the plywood panel for the air handler unit; is that also a HOA thing or was there another reason for not mounting directly to the wall?

Thanks for sharing your 'adventure' with us. Glad it turned out well.

 

[tab2]

My Mits runs all the time, as long as it's on, both inside and out.

My mitsubishi unit is always running as long as it's in a mode, the outdoor unit when I've noticed it will barely be turning the fan unless it needs to meet demand and then it speeds up.

Glad I'm not the one, I was thinking they just never satisfied.

 

[AZpilot]

Congratulations on getting the system up and going.
I'm thinking of using a mini-split for my workshop and have been following the m/s threads with interest (and occasional amusement) to learn what to look for and what to avoid.

I'm curious about the plywood panel for the air handler unit; is that also a HOA thing or was there another reason for not mounting directly to the wall?

Thanks for sharing your 'adventure' with us. Glad it turned out well.

I thought I would need the plywood stand off to run wire behind the unit. Newb mistake.

 

[AZpilot]

I have had this unit running for over a year now. A few thoughts. It is a really good unit. The 18K was the perfect match to over come the Arizona heat and having two garage vents for the gas water heater. It runs a little less than 15 bucks a month now to run. I have budget billing which spreads the cost of cooling over the whole year. I can turn up my temp in the Economy mode during my work week and then cool it down for my 3 day weekends and it is really nice in there.

I had some small issues when I first got it up and running that my pro AC guys helped me resolve. A bad line set on one of the interior lines was repaired. It was a manufacturing defect and caused a low coolant level twice. But it took 3.5 months to go low.

Overall I am happy with this unit. I run the maintenance self clean mode every two weeks and clean the filters monthly. So after fixing the one line problem, no more problems and it is running great. I have used the Heat mode as well in the winters to take the edge off those bone chilling 40 degree nights.

 

[Mustang415]

How many square feet are you cooling?


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[AZpilot]

How many square feet are you cooling?


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450 sq ft

 

[enal]

AZpilot...

I’m curious to know how quickly your space will cool off again if the garage door is opened for a few minutes?

I’m definitely not in the “Dry Heat” of AZ, but in “Oober Wet Heat” of South Louisiana which is basically like Vietnam! 80% humidity average year’round and that’s accounting for crazy low 50% days that we may have a few weeks of throughout the year! Ha...

While in Afghanistan from 2009-2012 we used mini-splits and that convinced me they can take some of the harshest conditions on Earth. There were just about every brand there, but mostly Gree, Daiken, LG & Mitsu’s. Gree & Daiken were always running.

My garage is right about 550sqft and I was planning on just putting a 15k in there to moderate the temps, but thinking more like an 18k now after reading all this.

 

[eddieK]

I worked for one of the largest HVAC wholesalers in America; at $5k for a mini split system the contractor is walking away with at least a couple of grand in their pocket for the install. The profit isn't at the wholesale/distribution level, it's at the contractor level.

Yeah...They're walking away with ;

spending how much on A/C pad, wiring, refrigerant piping, condensate piping, line set cover and all the other assorted parts

10 years liability if the owner has a lousy attorney and 20 if they have a good one.

At least one year of free call back potential.

probably involved three house calls - can you just drop by and tell me if the location my wife likes will work instead of the one we discussed and quoted - I think it's making a funny noise - I want to pre wire it, can you just stop by and confirm the location...again etc etc etc

insurance fees liability, workers comp, vehicle, licensing

matching fees for employees above employee hourly wages

SUCH CROOKS!

 

[AZpilot]

AZpilot...

I’m curious to know how quickly your space will cool off again if the garage door is opened for a few minutes?

I’m definitely not in the “Dry Heat” of AZ, but in “Oober Wet Heat” of South Louisiana which is basically like Vietnam! 80% humidity average year’round and that’s accounting for crazy low 50% days that we may have a few weeks of throughout the year! Ha...

While in Afghanistan from 2009-2012 we used mini-splits and that convinced me they can take some of the harshest conditions on Earth. There were just about every brand there, but mostly Gree, Daiken, LG & Mitsu’s. Gree & Daiken were always running.

My garage is right about 550sqft and I was planning on just putting a 15k in there to moderate the temps, but thinking more like an 18k now after reading all this.

I am sorry I did not see this post. If I open the door I can cool off again in about 30 minutes. In 10 minutes it is tolerable. If the door is up longer and everything gets heat soaked it can take up to a day to cool below 80F.