Garage outlets & shop lights questions...

[TheVodkaMan]

Hi all!

I've registered on NFPA to check NEC standards but after browsing for a while I just gave up and closed everything. The language they've used couldn't be vaguer...

Outlets

I have a 20'x22' attached two-car garage that of course came with only one 15 amp GFCI outlet that's on the far back wall 36" above the finished floor as you can see on the picture. I am just tired of running extension cords and wanting to add more outlets in the most efficient way possible.

At first, I wanted to utilize the existing 15 amp circuit and run conduit to the left and right from it... That's just gonna be too much conduit; I am OCD about it but after staring at the wall for a minute, I now wonder if/how NEC goes about me installing a few outlets below the breaker box on a separate circuit? The install would be pretty easy since it's all right there, I just don't know if there's a code about a specific distance for the box, height and everything else?

If code allows it then I might do a 2-gang box right beneath it, drop it on a 20-amp circuit, GFCI outlet and run conduit from it to my workbench... Thoughts? (I live in TN btw).

Lights

I only have two sources of light, the door opener and the ugly mushroom looking fixture, which has to go. I want to replace it with linkable 4' LED shop lights that I want to mount on the ceiling. Am I free to install them in any way I feel like i.e. no code about that?

 

[Stuart in MN]

Your photos aren't visible here, try posting a link to the site where they're hosted. As for code compliance, let us know what state or country you live in as codes vary depending on location.

 

[TheVodkaMan]

I am in Tennesee

Here are the garage and the breaker box (you have to copy and paste because the forum doesn't allow my images to be seen)

or right-click on the links and open in new tab works

https://pasteboard.co/IVNYeY5.jpg

https://pasteboard.co/IVNYnaj.jpg

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Your photos aren't visible here, try posting a link to the site where they're hosted. As for code compliance, let us know what state or country you live in as codes vary depending on location.

He's a new member so they wont show

 

[75gmck25]

The NEC is not very specific about physical location of a receptacle on the wall. I have a 20 amp convenience receptacle right below my panel, and it was installed and inspected during a "heavy up" to a 200 amp panel.

Its typical in residential to have receptacles about 12-14" off the floor. In garages it often works well to locate them so the bottom of the wall plate is a little more than 48" off the floor, so you can lean a sheet of plywood or drywall against the wall and not cover the receptacle. All garage receptacles now must be GFCI (even the ceiling).

If your NM wiring is exposed it must be protected from damage in areas below about 6 feet (depends on the inspector). You can use conduit for protection, run it along the side of a stud, or run it inside the wall.

For general garage lighting I have found it convenient to installed switched receptacles in the ceiling and buy inexpensive 4 foot LED lights that plug into them. Most LED lights also allow daisy-chaining, so you can plug one in and connect 2 or 3 more to it.

Bruce

 

[BD1]

If you have a Costco, they frequently have their 4' LED shop lights for $20.00
Definitely worth it and are setup for connecting together.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Vahispd]

Take a trip with your photos and some measurements to your local planning/permit folks and talk to them. They can advise you, which is helpful since they will perform the inspection!

BTW, I bought a previous edition of the NEC when starting some electrical work a few years ago and yes it's not the easiest to read through. I soon learned the code is for safety requirements, not to teach me everything about doing electrical work. Made more sense after that.

 

[TheVodkaMan]

The NEC is not very specific about physical location of a receptacle on the wall. I have a 20 amp convenience receptacle right below my panel, and it was installed and inspected during a "heavy up" to a 200 amp panel.

Its typical in residential to have receptacles about 12-14" off the floor. In garages it often works well to locate them so the bottom of the wall plate is a little more than 48" off the floor, so you can lean a sheet of plywood or drywall against the wall and not cover the receptacle. All garage receptacles now must be GFCI (even the ceiling).

If your NM wiring is exposed it must be protected from damage in areas below about 6 feet (depends on the inspector). You can use conduit for protection, run it along the side of a stud, or run it inside the wall.

For general garage lighting I have found it convenient to installed switched receptacles in the ceiling and buy inexpensive 4 foot LED lights that plug into them. Most LED lights also allow daisy-chaining, so you can plug one in and connect 2 or 3 more to it.

Bruce

I just converted the existing 1 gang GFCI outlet to 2 gang off of the GFCI's load and now I have 4 outlets, which helps a lot, so if I ould figure out the regulations around installing the same 2 gang setup under the panel on the same level with the original outlet, which is 36" I think, I'll be good. Unforutenly I can't find a clear answer so far...

As far as the lighting goes - I just wanted to know if there's a code that regulates the way I hang/mount them, as well as the distance between each fixture. I was gonna feed them all from the existing mushroom looking fixture, which I'm gonna remove anyway.

If you have a Costco, they frequently have their 4' LED shop lights for $20.00
Definitely worth it and are setup for connecting together.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, that's what I was gonna do; the hardest part is to find out about a code that might have some regulations in terms of removing the mushroom fixture and feeding the new lights from that power source.

Take a trip with your photos and some measurements to your local planning/permit folks and talk to them. They can advise you, which is helpful since they will perform the inspection!

BTW, I bought a previous edition of the NEC when starting some electrical work a few years ago and yes it's not the easiest to read through. I soon learned the code is for safety requirements, not to teach me everything about doing electrical work. Made more sense after that.

I have no idea where these people might be; I am pretty much forced to hire an electrician but I just don't see myself paying $100/hr for such a simple project.

 

[TheVodkaMan]

View media item 31523
Got this pic from here - https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=205806&page=3

I'd love to basically place my outlet just like this, I just don't know if something about it is in the code... and i can't find anything about it.....

 

[teamextreme]

There are no code restrictions on mounting an outlet in that manner, done all the time. In fact the NEC says very little regarding where receptacles are placed, other than to provide minimums for different areas such as kitchens, bathrooms, etc. You can always add to those minimums. As you are experiencing, the minimum for a garage (when yours was built) was 1 GFCI outlet. You can always install additional outlets. The only code requirement is that it must be GFCI protected, the wire must be sized appropriately based on the breaker size, conduit must be sized appropriately for the wires size, etc.

 

[sberry]

There are the rules and then there are the methods,, part of the method to a quality install,, or good design especially for a homebody type is,,,, outlets on 20A and totally separate from lights.
I prefer 15 on lights for a couple of reasons. Easy to identify, smaller wire makes fixture connections more secure, also a bit of further short circuit protection for all the little fixture wires. Reduces confusion.
Also don't need to use every idea you see on the internet, single circuit to a box is good. As for the leaning plywood against the wall,,, sheet, not gonna happen. Wall space goes fast and can lean a sheet up anyway over an 18 inch outlet. For now start with an outlet or 2 below the panel, easy to do with a surface or old work box. Can reach the bottom of the panel to install a connector thru the new box hole. I even put an S bend in some extra wire, can remove the box later to add another connector without unwiring the outlet.
There are several variations of this, they may be in a book somewhere or others may post them.

 

[sberry]

I am not sure how so much wiring in residential seems like an after thought. I saw a new garage, was really nice they put a 100A panel in the garage but put in 1 15A circuit. I guess no one would ever do real work in one, throw any party, compress air. Bathroom have better power. Acess to panels almost impossible or a road block that involves sawing near wires, cutting in, patch work, super primitive.
I did a job a while back would like to be able to redesign. As it is its simple and so super good it will never need upgrade. But if this was my garage and could do it at my pace was cut a good hole above and below or even better and as good is go below and put a couple 20 Circuits with gfci and instead of any new feed out the top simply cut 4x4 holes every other couple stud bays allowing the drilling and feed of a couple cables and feed a circuit extension to outlets and a 14 for light power to the first switch boxes and cut a convenient hole to get to the attic above for light fixtures and can add some switch loops easier.
As good or better would be light fixtures and raceway designed to act as cable covers. In a garage simple steel trim. Its important to get the switches right as much as it is the lights. I buy a roll of 14/3. Lets a guy run a 3 way and insure power at every location, I prefer power at every switch box and a 3 conductor for the fixture box.

 

[Tooldeals?]

Outlet below panel: Run an offset ****** to the box, run 12g stranded wire (black,white, green), use gfci. Power in goes to "line" side. If you want to run outlets off that connect them to the "load" side. Check local code for how many can be connected. If your running an air compressor/ fridge ect. Run a separate circuit for those.

Lighting: Run a separate circuit. I personally dont use 14g. The price difference is so minimal and depending on your local codes running 12g allows you to add on a 20a outlet if you happen to need one. Hard piping would be the easiest without getting into the attic. Again, hard piping means stranded wire & the knowledge to bend pipe.

 

[sberry]

Its about the least amount of stored unused wire as it can be. The extra wire can be power or the option for another switch and this method is for bathroom with fart fan. When you use a more cheaper wire it makes some incentive to simply pull another wire for some of the convenience when its all over, progressive switches to lights and local lighting.
I changes some on a recent job with the owner to add some 3 way and power beyond and location of a major switch bank with 2 switches. It had them running a zig zag for lights vs following the flow, a little extra wire but never the need to fix it with future gadgets.
With a quad box in a ceiling can have 2 duplex switched outlets with no modification allowing 4 fixtures to be plugged. Hang 2 see how it works out, don't even all got to be the same.
New stuff comes cord and plug, prototype it all out by hanging **** up. Had a guy wants me to do the utmost basic switching and then wants to cut all the cords off new fixtures and pipe it all as an option,,, I got to say that you don't need every light in the place on a single switch nd the cords are a gift.

 

[sberry]

A garage should be wired like a kitchen. I agree it doesn't hurt to wire it all 12, its just a habit and less confusing for me where its all distinct and in cable is cheaper, loads lighter than ever in lights. But also agree the cost in hometime is irrelevant.
In a couple cases a cover I am willing to buy is single switch in a 4x4 and in a shop would use 4x4 so I never switched spit duplex, and in the ceiling where I pipe use handy boxes vs couplings and put in a 49 cent recept. To a 4x4 switch box with 2 49 cent switches and 1 extra wire up the pipe.
Did a service call recently,,, the original was 15 yrs old but when it was new started off with an outlet switch combo so when the switch **** it was a 10$ mutha which we didn't carry, guy wanted it changed, ok, I kept the old one but a monor design change would have allowed the use of a common switch and a recept to start with. Them thing is fine for fix its and extension where its all you got,,, no reason to start off like that

 

[sberry]

A second thing to consider in favor of all 12 wire is modern **** doesn't add much load to a branch, Always watched daisey chains for 500 watt lamps but now it doesn't matter. As long as motor load trips are tolerable it doesn't matter. I like a couple circuits its not a problem for tools, a comp, a chop saw or a welder, my neighbor uses a single tool circuit primarily, doesn't hurt to have 2. I put them on opposite legs in a garage as a matter of habit. If I plug a heater in likely to use 2.
Fridges are 15 anymore I did a house remod a while back, put 2 recepts on a circuit and sure as **** they moved the fridge. I used 20, in a single duplex in built in wouldn't have a problem with 15. Anywhere it has the capacity o be used as a general for tools a 20

 

[sberry]

The ultimate is in post 9, simple, can add as many as wanted. When a guy plugs a comp, welder or saw in there its no doubt about where it goes.

 

[sberry]

Needing gfci on all outlets does make it a favor of running more items on less circuits but cheap wire and switches just let a guy change designs, even cheaper breakers these days. Takes a lot of heartace when a guy has a roll of light wire around he can ride along for as little as a couple 3$ in materials to install a switched hydrant or even a switch, got a box of connectors, have at it. Really given the advent of 120V welding and battery impacts a utility type guy could do it all without the common welder outlet and compressor service. Might never need 240V at home.

 

[sberry]

4 new circuits. 2 for tool use where there was a demand opposite, say small plasma and air comp or saw and air handling maybe,,, a 3rd for fridges and battery tools, always on parasitic and a 4th for lights. Unless there were compelling circumstances would extend the tool circuits to the outdoor outlets. Lets this be done with minimal gfci, less all the special covers etc.
With the op might cut some drywall or holes down where repair is easy and go sideways.

 

[Lonnies Performance]

One thing I did was to use a double gang boxes with quad receptacles fed by a 240V GFCI breaker.

You can often find a good deal on ebay/Amazon for these breakers & with only 1 extra strand of wire (12/3 instead of 12/2) you can have double the available current at any location by having 2 adjacent receptacles on different legs.

 

[TheVodkaMan]

There are no code restrictions on mounting an outlet in that manner, done all the time. In fact the NEC says very little regarding where receptacles are placed, other than to provide minimums for different areas such as kitchens, bathrooms, etc. You can always add to those minimums. As you are experiencing, the minimum for a garage (when yours was built) was 1 GFCI outlet. You can always install additional outlets. The only code requirement is that it must be GFCI protected, the wire must be sized appropriately based on the breaker size, conduit must be sized appropriately for the wires size, etc.

Exactly my thoughts. I will just go ahead and add a 2-gang box right below the panel and run PVC conduit to the left where my workbench is for 4 more outlets.

One thing I did was to use a double gang boxes with quad receptacles fed by a 240V GFCI breaker.

You can often find a good deal on ebay/Amazon for these breakers & with only 1 extra strand of wire (12/3 instead of 12/2) you can have double the available current at any location by having 2 adjacent receptacles on different legs.

This is a great idea, thanks!

 

[TheVodkaMan]

Outlet below panel: Run an offset ****** to the box, run 12g stranded wire (black,white, green), use gfci. Power in goes to "line" side. If you want to run outlets off that connect them to the "load" side. Check local code for how many can be connected. If your running an air compressor/ fridge ect. Run a separate circuit for those.

Lighting: Run a separate circuit. I personally dont use 14g. The price difference is so minimal and depending on your local codes running 12g allows you to add on a 20a outlet if you happen to need one. Hard piping would be the easiest without getting into the attic. Again, hard piping means stranded wire & the knowledge to bend pipe.

10-4 on the outlet below the panel but why go through all the trouble and wire LED bars to a separate circuit when I could just use the existing circuit the mushroom fixture is connected to already? All I have to do is to remove the mushroom and mount the main 2 pairs of 4' bars in its place, link the other bars to the main fixture and control all other ones via the chain?

I don't have any experience or tools to bend the metal conduit, so perhaps I should go with a PVC instead...

 

[TheVodkaMan]

There are the rules and then there are the methods,, part of the method to a quality install,, or good design especially for a homebody type is,,,, outlets on 20A and totally separate from lights.
I prefer 15 on lights for a couple of reasons. Easy to identify, smaller wire makes fixture connections more secure, also a bit of further short circuit protection for all the little fixture wires. Reduces confusion.
Also don't need to use every idea you see on the internet, single circuit to a box is good. As for the leaning plywood against the wall,,, sheet, not gonna happen. Wall space goes fast and can lean a sheet up anyway over an 18 inch outlet. For now start with an outlet or 2 below the panel, easy to do with a surface or old work box. Can reach the bottom of the panel to install a connector thru the new box hole. I even put an S bend in some extra wire, can remove the box later to add another connector without unwiring the outlet.
There are several variations of this, they may be in a book somewhere or others may post them.

I am not sure how so much wiring in residential seems like an after thought. I saw a new garage, was really nice they put a 100A panel in the garage but put in 1 15A circuit. I guess no one would ever do real work in one, throw any party, compress air. Bathroom have better power. Acess to panels almost impossible or a road block that involves sawing near wires, cutting in, patch work, super primitive.
I did a job a while back would like to be able to redesign. As it is its simple and so super good it will never need upgrade. But if this was my garage and could do it at my pace was cut a good hole above and below or even better and as good is go below and put a couple 20 Circuits with gfci and instead of any new feed out the top simply cut 4x4 holes every other couple stud bays allowing the drilling and feed of a couple cables and feed a circuit extension to outlets and a 14 for light power to the first switch boxes and cut a convenient hole to get to the attic above for light fixtures and can add some switch loops easier.
As good or better would be light fixtures and raceway designed to act as cable covers. In a garage simple steel trim. Its important to get the switches right as much as it is the lights. I buy a roll of 14/3. Lets a guy run a 3 way and insure power at every location, I prefer power at every switch box and a 3 conductor for the fixture box.

Its about the least amount of stored unused wire as it can be. The extra wire can be power or the option for another switch and this method is for bathroom with fart fan. When you use a more cheaper wire it makes some incentive to simply pull another wire for some of the convenience when its all over, progressive switches to lights and local lighting.
I changes some on a recent job with the owner to add some 3 way and power beyond and location of a major switch bank with 2 switches. It had them running a zig zag for lights vs following the flow, a little extra wire but never the need to fix it with future gadgets.
With a quad box in a ceiling can have 2 duplex switched outlets with no modification allowing 4 fixtures to be plugged. Hang 2 see how it works out, don't even all got to be the same.
New stuff comes cord and plug, prototype it all out by hanging **** up. Had a guy wants me to do the utmost basic switching and then wants to cut all the cords off new fixtures and pipe it all as an option,,, I got to say that you don't need every light in the place on a single switch nd the cords are a gift.

A garage should be wired like a kitchen. I agree it doesn't hurt to wire it all 12, its just a habit and less confusing for me where its all distinct and in cable is cheaper, loads lighter than ever in lights. But also agree the cost in hometime is irrelevant.
In a couple cases a cover I am willing to buy is single switch in a 4x4 and in a shop would use 4x4 so I never switched spit duplex, and in the ceiling where I pipe use handy boxes vs couplings and put in a 49 cent recept. To a 4x4 switch box with 2 49 cent switches and 1 extra wire up the pipe.
Did a service call recently,,, the original was 15 yrs old but when it was new started off with an outlet switch combo so when the switch **** it was a 10$ mutha which we didn't carry, guy wanted it changed, ok, I kept the old one but a monor design change would have allowed the use of a common switch and a recept to start with. Them thing is fine for fix its and extension where its all you got,,, no reason to start off like that

A second thing to consider in favor of all 12 wire is modern **** doesn't add much load to a branch, Always watched daisey chains for 500 watt lamps but now it doesn't matter. As long as motor load trips are tolerable it doesn't matter. I like a couple circuits its not a problem for tools, a comp, a chop saw or a welder, my neighbor uses a single tool circuit primarily, doesn't hurt to have 2. I put them on opposite legs in a garage as a matter of habit. If I plug a heater in likely to use 2.
Fridges are 15 anymore I did a house remod a while back, put 2 recepts on a circuit and sure as **** they moved the fridge. I used 20, in a single duplex in built in wouldn't have a problem with 15. Anywhere it has the capacity o be used as a general for tools a 20

The ultimate is in post 9, simple, can add as many as wanted. When a guy plugs a comp, welder or saw in there its no doubt about where it goes.

Needing gfci on all outlets does make it a favor of running more items on less circuits but cheap wire and switches just let a guy change designs, even cheaper breakers these days. Takes a lot of heartace when a guy has a roll of light wire around he can ride along for as little as a couple 3$ in materials to install a switched hydrant or even a switch, got a box of connectors, have at it. Really given the advent of 120V welding and battery impacts a utility type guy could do it all without the common welder outlet and compressor service. Might never need 240V at home.

4 new circuits. 2 for tool use where there was a demand opposite, say small plasma and air comp or saw and air handling maybe,,, a 3rd for fridges and battery tools, always on parasitic and a 4th for lights. Unless there were compelling circumstances would extend the tool circuits to the outdoor outlets. Lets this be done with minimal gfci, less all the special covers etc.
With the op might cut some drywall or holes down where repair is easy and go sideways.

That's a hell of a reply my man, I had to read it a couple of time HAHA

Yes, I am adding a 2-gang box below the panel on a separate 20 amp circuit. So the mushroom fixture is indeed on a 15-amp circuit using 14/2, which I think is gonna be enough to power my LED bars. The idea is to remove the mushroom fixture and bolt it to 4 4' bars serving as my main light and then run singles or dual from the main light to the sides linked together, which I think I should be able to turn off using the included chain links when I don't need so much light.

 

[teamextreme]

This is a great idea, thanks!

And as with a lot of GJ suggestions, it can be way overkill. Compare the price of a 240V GFCI breaker (around $100) and some normal outlets to a normal 120v breaker ($4) and one GFCI recep ($15) and then decide if it's worth that extra cost to get 40A of 120V.
Then ask, under what scenario of tool operation would you possibly need over 20A? Some people do need it, but not many. If you're using a 120V electric space heater and tools together, maybe.

 

[Greeny]

I had a similar lighting situation in my last garage. I removed the ceiling light, installed an outlet box over the junction box, and plugged my 3 LED lights into the new outlets.

 

[sberry]

That was a bit of the point to my ramble. Its easy to assume a demand wayyyy greater than the actual. I have a lot of stuff, 120 breakers in the shop, maybe more. About the same inside use as a common kitchen most of the time. Total load about the same as a house with electric appliances. In a garage with most of the utilities provided externally most real load is applied a circuit at a time.
The other point was not to use parts not common and singular, no need for multi wire circuits here, so much better for the diy to keep it to a simple circuit to the box when possible.

 

[sberry]

I own 300 breakers,,, 1 of them gfci and it came with something already wired on. Replaced a QO single pole for a neighbor a while back, was some astronomical amount and didn't have one on hand.