Garage Planning

[salguod]

A few years ago we finally moved from our small, suburban home with its tiny two car garage to a place with 1.4 acres, a decent 20W x 22D garage and, most importantly, room to build. I'm finally starting to plan my building and I know enough to be dangerous. I want to be well informed so I can make good choices in who I hire and what I do myself.

Here's what I'm thinking so far:

• Probably 30x40 or so. That feels big for what I need, but everyone says don't build too small.
• Concrete floor
• Some means of heating in the winter, on demand not necessarily always heated.
• I'll have 3 or 4 vehicles to store plus my 61" zero turn and various other yard tools. I currently have what I think is a 10'x12' shed for the mower etc. Only 1 of the vehicles would be used regularly, my truck. The others would be summer toys.
• Vehicle lift for service, not storage. Probably a 2 post because I think it makes for easier service. I do like that a 4 post can be moved around, though. I would need to have the work area (lift bay) accessible even with the vehicles inside. I suppose the truck could live in that spot and be moved outside when another vehicle needed work.
• Not terribly concerned about finishing the inside. I want it to look decent, but it's a workshop and storage space.

I've attached an aerial view of the property showing my rough plan. The red is the new building, the blue the driveway and the yellow is my aeration septic and drain field. Right now the wide gate access is at the far left of the fence. However, that forces the driveway over the septic, which isn't going to work. I pretty much have to put the driveway where it's shown. You can see also my current shed at the upper right.

My questions at this point:

1. What should I be thinking of now that people tend to overlook?
2. What kind of construction? As I said, I'm not concerned too much with a nice finished interior. I want a functional building, a nice looking exterior but an economical build. I'm not afraid of DIY (finished my old basement myself), but I'm not sure I want to take on the entire building.
3. What kind of heat? Maybe a bit early to worry about it, but I would guess it'll influence what kind of construction, electric, etc. The house is pretty much all electric, although we do have a propane fireplace. The propane tank is at the far front right corner of the house, however. Floor heat sounds nice (I hate working on cold concrete), but it sounds like it takes a while to heat the space.
4. Side load or end load? My assumption was that I'd do an end load, but I've been reading some build threads and learning the a side load might mean less shuffling of vehicles.
5. One wide overhead door or two narrow ones?
6. What kind of insulation? Again, I want to make sure I'm planning for this up front. I'm in central Ohio, so winters are cold but not typically brutal. What R level should I be shooting for?
7. What about summer ventilation? I'm thinking south facing windows for lighting
8. Any recommendations for software for designing the space, preferably free?

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I go, but this post is already long enough. I'm hoping to have a good plan with the idea of starting construction no later than next spring.

 

[Jeff Ivers]

You haven't indicated what size vehicles you have or want to have nor what type of hobbies you will engage in using this building. Will you be doing only mechanical maintenance or do you wish to restore a vehicle? Are you a wood worker?

I have a 24 by 50 stick built and do both metal fabrication, car restoration and wood working. I carved out a 10 by 14 corner to house a bathroom and office space. I store 2 small British sports cars in my shop and struggle to keep a 16 by 22 work bay free for working on projects. What takes up all the space? Blast cabinet, table saw, belt/disk sander on a cabinet, buffer on a stand, planer on a cabinet, three tool box stacks, etc.

If you plan to have a lift and store multiple vehicles, I highly recommend 2 16 foot wide doors.

I designed my shop using 1/4 inch graph paper and cardboard cutouts (to scale) to represent what I was going to have in it.

Think about what utilities you will run to the building and how far you will have to run them - cost.

 

[ODIS]

Jeff has it pretty well nailed on thought process. Adding my .02$ is to keep the mower somewhere else. Once the grass in the mower deck starts to rot, it will make your garage stink. Further, make your space as large as possible and finish it off over time.

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Invest some time and learn Sketch-Up or other similar 3-d rendering software and build your garage virtually. Make the changes you want, etc.

On my build for the stand alone shop as above, the changes I'd make today, would make the entry 2x it's size. The rest is pretty much ok, however, have an added garage space connected to the house.

 

[salguod]

You haven't indicated what size vehicles you have or want to have nor what type of hobbies you will engage in using this building. Will you be doing only mechanical maintenance or do you wish to restore a vehicle? Are you a wood worker?

I have a 1960 Thunderbird. Dad has a 1957 Eldorado that will likely find a home here too. Maybe others in the future, but I don't see having more than 3 hobby cars ever. I struggle to keep the one that I have now on the road. My truck is a 1995 Ranger, but I'm considering upgrading to a full size half ton. The truck can sit outside if need be, but if there's room inside it'd be nice.

I'll be doing mostly mechanical work. Not likely body work, but maybe. I've done all my work to date in attached 2 car garages.

I have a 24 by 50 stick built and do both metal fabrication, car restoration and wood working. I carved out a 10 by 14 corner to house a bathroom and office space. I store 2 small British sports cars in my shop and struggle to keep a 16 by 22 work bay free for working on projects. What takes up all the space? Blast cabinet, table saw, belt/disk sander on a cabinet, buffer on a stand, planer on a cabinet, three tool box stacks, etc.

The closest I'll get to woodworking would be home DIY projects and I don't have any large tools like a table saw or blast cabinet. That said, once I have room I'm sure that I'll find reasons for larger tools that I don't have now.

Think about what utilities you will run to the building and how far you will have to run them - cost.

The location I'm thinking is the closest to the house with maintaining the openness of the back yard that I love. I have no desire for running water out there, just electric and maybe a propane tank for heat if that makes sense.

 

[salguod]

Invest some time and learn Sketch-Up or other similar 3-d rendering software and build your garage virtually. Make the changes you want, etc.

I'm a mechanical engineer and have used 3D CAD for over 25 years - Proe/Creo, Solidworks and now Catia at my current job. It's not easy to bring Catia home to do a personal project, however, and it's not quite suited to building projects.

I used Sketchup 10 years ago for my basement remodel and it worked well. That was when Google owned it and it was free, but it looks like there's still a personal free version so that might be my go to. I printed the floor plan and laid out the electric by hand on paper, though.

Were you able to download the lifts, garage doors and furniture?

 

[salguod]

Jeff has it pretty well nailed on thought process. Adding my .02$ is to keep the mower somewhere else. Once the grass in the mower deck starts to rot, it will make your garage stink.

I had thought about that. Maybe a separate walled off section with it's own door. I'd just keep the shed that I have, but it's not in very good shape and not worth saving.

 

[ODIS]

I'm a mechanical engineer and have used 3D CAD for over 25 years - Proe/Creo, Solidworks and now Catia at my current job. It's not easy to bring Catia home to do a personal project, however, and it's not quite suited to building projects.

I used Sketchup 10 years ago for my basement remodel and it worked well. That was when Google owned it and it was free, but it looks like there's still a personal free version so that might be my go to. I printed the floor plan and laid out the electric by hand on paper, though.

Were you able to download the lifts, garage doors and furniture?

Furniture and doors were off the Sketch Up art work downloads. Lifts, I modeled along with the undercounter and cabinets.

Also have a 3d mouse. So very helpful when working in SU. Suppose you have access to this technology. As an ME, you should be fine planning this whole thing...

All the best to you.

 

[nadogail]

IMHO, you will probably eventually outgrow what ever garage you can build.

As I result, I feel fortunate that I am learning to accept my limitations of Capital, Space, and Time.

 

[matt_i]

I think you'll be into 3 vehicles plus a workspace.

Basic problem is 30' isn't deep enough to park two vehicles end-to-end.

So you'll have 4 tight bays of 10x30. And I counted one of those as workspace.

My opinion is always going to be: make it as insulated as possible, I used 2x6 frame and a 2x10 bottom chord (attic storage truss). The amount of easy energy on the planet is finite and being consumed by an ever-growing populace. Bottom line its not going to stay cheap forever.

 

[Kevkx125]

I think you should put the doors on a 40ft wall, make 4 bay's, make a end bay a place for your yard equip. and the other three work bays.
Here is a link to my 30x40 hope it helps

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=411435

 

[Handyandy23]

Doing even a 2D layout to scale is pretty basic advice, but it really helps you put it in perspective. If you plan on having a car lift and using it for working on cars, you pretty well need 20 ft in width just for that.

My 2 post lift is a little over 11 ft wide from the outside of the post on one side, to the outside of the pump on the other side. Then if you figure you're going to put tool boxes or a bench or whatever along the outside wall, that takes up a minimum of another 2 ft. So now you're up to 13-14 ft of space taken up, without accounting for room to walk around and work. If you give yourself 3 ft on either side to comfortably swing a hammer, you're up to 20 ft pretty easily.

Like someone else said, 30 ft isn't deep enough to park 2 vehicles deep. It's basically deep enough to have a comfortable amount of room to drive a truck into the lift, and maybe enough room in front for a tool box or work bench. So then you've essentially used half the 30x40 for the lift and work area. Which does give you a nice, spacious, work area, but the other half you'll only fit 2 cars, and maybe the mower.

That's also not taking into account any other tool storage or equipment. Even fairly basic stuff like a mitre or table saw take up quite a bit of space to store, so adding all that into a layout gives you a better idea what you'll need. Air compressors take up a lot of room too.

I've got a 22x30 attached garage and I'm happy with it, but I only store 1 car in the lift area, and then use the rest of the space for tools and work area. Fitting multiple cars, especially classic T-Birds and Caddy's, will take up a large footprint.

 

[QUIKSVT]

Hi neighbor. Just down the road from you! Literally!

 

[Ray916MN]

Instead of building 30x40 (1200 sq ft) and I went 24x48 (1152 sq ft - my zoning only allowed up to 1200 sq ft) with 14' ceilings. While this is a little smaller this allowed me to put in two 18' wide doors in the building. If you have full size vehicles 16' is a little tight. 24' is shallow but enough depth for a full size 4x4 crew cab short bed truck. I made the doors 10' tall so I could park an enclosed trailer in one of the bays. A side benefit of the tall and wide doors is when they are open, the building is well ventilated even without opening the windows. Ultimately the dimensions were chosen to enable four 4 post lifts to be placed in the building so it can handle 8 cars and parking of vehicles with direct access in and out to avoid having to double deep park any vehicles. An alternative configuration of this size building is to a put a double door on a sidewall and then put another double door on the far gable end. This layout works like two 2 car garages at right angles to each other, but it gives you the flexibility to park something 48' long in the building. It also will be extremely well ventilated when both doors are open since the garage doors will be on two different walls. The tradeoff is the need for allot more driveway.

For side wall doors, you need to consider your roof pitch and overhang and the potential for snow avalanches or for water runoff in torrential rains. South facing is ideal because it keeps the apron clear of ice and snow. North facing is to be avoided if at all possible. I would place more importance on having my garage doors face south, than I would place on having any windows in the building face south.

I use a conventional furnace for heat and air conditioning. Many people use mini splits with success, Some of what works best will depend on what ceiling height you go with. The taller the ceiling, the more you need to think about moving air in the building with either ceiling fans or ducting. Without fans on in the winter, the temperature close to the ceiling can be 10 degrees higher than it is on the floor.

Lastly given how much stuff you want to put in your building, I would plan for a mezzanine or pallet racking or some other means of making efficient use of vertical space. Being able to get seasonal stuff, like a zero turn mover off the floor in the winter will make your building much more usable.

 

[dffay]

My next shop, large like you guys are imagining, will have a ceiling mounted rail system for a light framed drywall arrangement like barn doors. At a corner bay, so I only have to deal with two walls, I could pull them shut: paint shop. Open later for regular use.

 

[salguod]

I'm moving slowly, but I've been playing a bit with Sketchup and laid out both a side and end load. My intent is to be ready to build by the end of summer or fall even if the build doesn't happen until the spring.

I think an end load is going to work better, both for my lot and for what I want to put inside. Just makes it easier to use the space for vehicle storage, in case I get carried away with vehicles.

In both versions I'm showing:

• Two 10'x10' doors
• A man door
• 2 & 4 post lifts (both in the end, only the 4 post in the side)
• Dad's '57 Caddy (represented by a '60)
• My '60 T'bird (represented by a '61)
• My mower
• A couple generic workbenches (probably more than I'll have)
• A couple generic shelving units (probably not enough)

I also added an extra couple of cars just to see. All those cars don't leave a lot of room for storage, but that's 2 more than I intend to have. Plus, the truck can sit outside or I can go vertical with a storage lift or two if space becomes tight.

The end load allows for more and easier car storage (one of my primary reasons for the building), but the side load makes for a more generous work area (the other primary reason for the building).

I'd love any feedback folks have on my layouts thus far and any recommendations for central Ohio builders.

 

[Jeff Ivers]

I'm moving slowly, but I've been playing a bit with Sketchup and laid out both a side and end load. My intent is to be ready to build by the end of summer or fall even if the build doesn't happen until the spring.

I think an end load is going to work better, both for my lot and for what I want to put inside. Just makes it easier to use the space for vehicle storage, in case I get carried away with vehicles.

In both versions I'm showing:

• Two 10'x10' doors
• A man door
• 2 & 4 post lifts (both in the end, only the 4 post in the side)
• Dad's '57 Caddy (represented by a '60)
• My '60 T'bird (represented by a '61)
• My mower
• A couple generic workbenches (probably more than I'll have)
• A couple generic shelving units (probably not enough)

I also added an extra couple of cars just to see. All those cars don't leave a lot of room for storage, but that's 2 more than I intend to have. Plus, the truck can sit outside or I can go vertical with a storage lift or two if space becomes tight.

The end load allows for more and easier car storage (one of my primary reasons for the building), but the side load makes for a more generous work area (the other primary reason for the building).

I'd love any feedback folks have on my layouts thus far and any recommendations for central Ohio builders.

The end load allows for more and easier car storage (one of my primary reasons for the building), but the side load makes for a more generous work area (the other primary reason for the building).

I'd love any feedback folks have on my layouts thus far and any recommendations for central Ohio builders.[/QUOTE]

Are both of these layouts 30' x 40'? Are the vehicles the same scale as the floor plan? Looking at the end load picture, something seems off. I have a 20' wide by 22' deep attached garage on my house and all I can fit in it are a Silverado and Vette. The Silverado is parked about 3" from the front wall, leaving about 18" to pass behind the vehicle. I have about 2' on the outside of each vehicle and about 3.5' between them. A Vette door has to open over 3' for an older person to get into it. You may be young now, but that will not remain the case! If those doors are 10 foot wide, your pickup appears to be only 5' wide - My Vette is over 6' and my Silverado over 7'. I also don't see anything to indicate space taken up by cabinets or things hanging on other walls, like garden tools. In short, I don't think you can get 3 cars and a ZTR in a 30' width. You have made some good progress in getting your ideas on paper.

 

[salguod]

Yes, both 30'x40' and all the vehicles are to scale, at least the Caddy, Tbird & pickup. I downloaded them and then scaled them to match dimensions that I found online for each. The Corvette & BMW may be off slightly, I didn't check their size after downloading. The pickup is 6.5' wide across the running boards, 7.5' at the mirrors. The Corvette is about 5' 7" at the body, which matches what I find online, so it seems pretty close too.

The lifts were drawn by me based on the dimensions from Bend-pak.

I've attached a straight on view looking in the doors to give a better idea of the scale.

I agree, the 3 cars & mower across assumes no side shelves and that the cars are put in sequentially and close together (there's about 18" between them as shown). I'm definitely going to need more storage than shown, but I'm not sure what yet.

Everything that will go in the new building is currently in my existing 20'W x 22'D two car garage (with my Tbird, my wife's Accord and a workbench) or my shed which is probably 10'W x 16'D or so. Of course, stuff will increase to fill the available space, but right now I don't need a lot of storage.

I'm also thinking I need a 3rd door, probably 8'x8' or so, at the back to get the mower in and out without moving cars.

 

[astroracer]

Think about expanding to a 30 x 48. Put 2 16' doors on the long wall. This will give you storage for the cars in front and leave room on the back wall for shelving and benches. Keep both doors 6' off the inside of the end walls and you will have plenty of room to walk and work around the lift and storage or benches on the end walls.
Draw that up and see what you think. Remember, your 30' x 48' is only 29' x 47' on the inside...
Grizzly also has a very handy workshop design app that will let you build any size shop you want. I use it all the time.
https://www.grizzly.com/workshopplanner#
Mark

 

[Cougar]

Good idea on the third door for the mower.

 

[salguod]

OK, I'm starting to get a little more serious. Interest rates are low so we're thinking of refinancing the house and pulling equity out to do the barn, which means I need to know how much.

I got a quote from Morton on their new "more affordable" buildings and it is still much higher than I was thinking. Building only - no floor, no electric, no insulation started at $28K and went to over $34K with wainscotting, door openers and a better foundation. That's also no site prep, no driveway, etc. I really don't know what to expect, but that seems nuts.

I'm also looking at DIY Pole Barns, Pole Barns Direct and a local builder JD Construction. So far I'm liking DIY Pole Barns, but I haven't talked to everyone yet.

One question I have is insulation. I'm sure recommendations are all over the place, but I want an insulated building so I can work out there in the winter. I don't plan on heating it all the time, but want to be able to bring it up to a reasonable temp (I heat my current garage to about 60 degrees when I'm working out there) when needed.

DIY Pole Barns had a very nice barn planner that lists R values up to R30 with a ceiling and blown fiberglas and up to R19 for the walls. Obviously more is always better, but what minimum should I be looking at?

 

[Ralf11]

hydronic heat is safest in a garage and VERY comfy when you are lying down under a car, also pretty cheap to run or install when pouring the slab

but it is slow to change temperatures

>> make a big drawing and cut out some rectangles for the car in one color paper or note cards; use other colors for tool boxes, cabinets etc.

move them all around while thinking with some brandy

you want elec. outlets on the wall AND the fronts of your benches

switches for overhead lights - lots of them so you can control the lighting - one side or one end etc.

air lines in the wall - sit the compressor outside in it's own little shed to cut the noise

lift in the floor?

hot water and a sink

as much insulation as you can get...

 

[salguod]

A lot has happened, thought I'd give an update.

After much analysis between several builders / DIY options I went with the local company, JD Construction. Best I could figure, all were within a few thousand of each other once you factor in everything and these guys have built several buildings in my township and have a great reputation. I'm pretty sure it's costing me many thousands more due to Covid, between lumber prices and increased demand, but I'm not getting younger and I can afford it, so why wait?

I'm doing a bit of the prep work (took down and cleared the 3 trees in the way) and contracting the gate in my fence, but they're doing most of the rest. I'm only having them do the basic electric install (breaker box, power to the door openers and the min outlets/lighting required by code) and I'll do the rest. That'll let me place my outlets where I want them, after I use the place for a .it. And save me about $2500.

Trees are cleared, contract is signed (last fall) and they should be starting in the next week or two. I'm pretty excited about it.

 

[CraigStu]

Be sure they put in a box w/ a lot of room for more breakers. Sometimes electricians get uppity when they realize they are not going to get to do the whole job and put in a small box. I'd want a minimum of 10 empty positions and remember that a 240 uses the space of two 120s. Also go to your local L or HD and see what brand breakers they carry and be sure you guy uses that same brand.

 

[Talon2006]

I wished I had insulated and finished my garage before I moved my stuff in, I also wish I tore it down and just built something larger too...

I would defiantly look at spray foam. Also, I wish I had put a drain under my air compressor.

 

[salguod]

He's installing 100A service. It'll just be me in there most of the time. No compressor, no welder, although I wouldn't rule out welding in the future. I'll have a lift pretty soon. I'll have heat, eventually, probably propane.

Barn will be insulated. R19 batts on the walls, R38 blown insulation in the ceiling. Not planning on finishing the walls, it's a workshop not a finished space.

He wants $2500 more to do full electric, 1 outside light, 6 inside LED lights and 10 outlets. I figured I can do it for a lot less, but didn't think about running conduit for all the wiring, which I now assume will be necessary. I may have him go ahead and finish it so I don't have to deal with it. I kinda like the idea of waiting until I know better how I'll use it to put outlets in.

 

[salguod]

Construction is well under way, I decided to start a build thread.

 

[salguod]

It's done (Well, the initial construction anyway. There's still shelving, internet, workbenches, and more to do. ) and I'm very happy with how it came together. Check the build thread for details.

 

[nadogail]

Looks nice, may you enjoy it in good health for many years.