Garage Subpanel question

[lbhsbz]

Getting the garage organized at the new place and putting things where I think I want them to live...and discovering the electrical is not what I thought it was.

Currently I have a 50A breaker on the main panel feeding the sub with #10 wire...through 1/2" conduit. EMT is buried (about 10ft between the house and the garage, with short pieces of flex to connect to the main panel and sub.

#10 is not good for 50A. Currently, there is a 30A 240V circuit for the dryer, a 15A 240 circuit feeding an outlet (I'm not sure what good 15A of 240V is), a couple 20A 120V circuits feeding outlets and a 15A circuit for the lights.

I would like to run a 40A 240V circuit with 2 outlets...one for the dryer and one for my compressor/welders/etc, then come off of those into a couple disconnects to feed the mill and the lathe (powered by VFDs) The 120V circuits can remain intact.

I need at least #8. I can fit 3 #8s through the 1/2" conduit.

Question 1: Can I also fit a #10 bare ground along with my 3 #8s in the 1/2" conduit?

Question 2: Can I use the conduit as my ground and simply pull 2 hots and a neutral?

 

[sberry]

Dig this up, put a chunk of 6 cable. 60 breaker feeding it to a 20 space main breaker panel.

 

[lbhsbz]

Dig this up, put a chunk of 6 cable. 60 breaker feeding it to a 20 space main breaker panel.

That is the plan....but not now.

I have a in-set Zinsco panel on the house which I need to replace at some point...not in the cards right now financially.

I'm trying for a simple solution that will get me by until I can re-do all of it.

 

[SIX225]

I believe that three #8 is allowed in 1/2 conduit. I tried to do it but my pipe had an actual 90* elbow in the concrete and couldn't get it to pass through that. If you do try, have two people. I tried to pull it myself 50 feet away and the cable at the other end kept twisting and essentially taking up more space in the conduit. Might try taping wires together and lots of lube too as someone guides them in. Don't think you'll get the bare ground through with it. Should be able to use the conduit as ground if you removed the flex and replaced it with pipe. Good luck.

 

[dscheidt]

You cannot run a bare wire in conduit. Dig it up.

 

[rburke65]

The distance is only 10' or so between the house and the garage? Get a pick and a shovel and dig a trench, run two 1 1/4" ....or bigger.....PVC conduits and pull in your feeders of choice. Look on CList or check around at an lectrical supply house for short pieces.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Getting the garage organized at the new place and putting things where I think I want them to live...and discovering the electrical is not what I thought it was.

Currently I have a 50A breaker on the main panel feeding the sub with #10 wire...through 1/2" conduit. EMT is buried(about 10ft between the house and the garage, with short pieces of flex to connect to the main panel and sub.

IS the EMT corroded? Some EMT is not permitted for use underground.

It's only 10'? I would just rip it out and replace with PVC.

#10 is not good for 50A. Currently, there is a 30A 240V circuit for the dryer, a 15A 240 circuit feeding an outlet (I'm not sure what good 15A of 240V is), a couple 20A 120V circuits feeding outlets and a 15A circuit for the lights.

I would like to run a 40A 240V circuit with 2 outlets...one for the dryer and one for my compressor/welders/etc, then come off of those into a couple disconnects to feed the mill and the lathe (powered by VFDs) The 120V circuits can remain intact.

A dryer circuit is 30a not 40a.

What is the HP rating on the compressor? This will dictate the size of circuit and wire you will need to run for it. Also, if the compressor is more than 3HP, it cannot be plugged into an outlet. It must be hardwired.

Do you plan on running all this equipment at the same time? Why not run separate circuits for each?

I need at least #8. I can fit 3 #8s through the 1/2" conduit.

Question 1: Can I also fit a #10 bare ground along with my 3 #8s in the 1/2" conduit?

EGC needs to be insulated.

However, You will not be able to fit all that in the conduit.

3 #8s and a #10 is 43% and for over 2 wires youre limited to 40%.

#8s will give you 50a BTW

Question 2: Can I use the conduit as my ground and simply pull 2 hots and a neutral?

you cannot because the EMT is not continuous....

That is the plan....but not now.

I have a in-set Zinsco panel on the house which I need to replace at some point...not in the cards right now financially.

I'm trying for a simple solution that will get me by until I can re-do all of it.

Unfortunately, there is no short cuts here. Its a hodge podge. the best thing to do is rip it out and replace it. The run is so short were not talking much money here.

And i would be replacing that Zinsco panel before it burns the house down. Ive seen many melted zinsco beakers in my service days...

 

[teamextreme]

How long has the EMT been underground? If more than a couple years, I doubt you'l be able to pull anything through it, or even pull the old conductors out for that matter. Depending on the location, EMT won't last but a few years before corroding away to nothing, unless you're out in the desert. As others have said, with that short a run, you're not talking about enough money to justify half-assing it for a temporary solution.

 

[Bretny]

That is the plan....but not now.

I have a in-set Zinsco panel on the house which I need to replace at some point...not in the cards right now financially.

I'm trying for a simple solution that will get me by until I can re-do all of it.

How many times do you want to "repair" the same job? Dig it up and do it right. Conduit or DB dosnt matter as long as the wireing is rated for the load/breaker.

For a 10ft run personaly i would run a piece of 2in and 1in conduit. 2in for power and 1in for the future, cable, ethernet or what ever the future brings.

 

[grounded-b]

IS the EMT corroded? Some EMT is not permitted for use underground.

EMT is RARELY allowed in direct contact with the earth, only when approved for such use. - NEC 358-10(B). Wisconsin state code, SPS 316 prohibits it in ALL cases.

EGC needs to be insulated.

Code reference? NOT prohibited by the NEC. Bare EGC can be run in metallic raceways.

 

[pattenp]

If the piece of emt is not bonded to the egc then the egc needs to be insulated.

 

[sberry]

I'm trying for a simple solution that will get me by until I can re-do all of it.

Why not do this one piece first. When you go to do the rest this will already be done. A cobble just prolongs it at extra expense. A lot of time we advocate alum wire as cheaper but this might be close enough that a cable might be practical. You can use a 6 on the 50 you already have.