Garage subpanel repair - This can't be right.

[jeffwww]

Hi, I just bought a Hobart 210 welder and figured I was good on 115v but then when I decided to wire in a 50 Amp plug I started looking around abit.

My panel goes back on about 60 ft of wire, all looking to be Romex 10/2, to a 40 Amp breaker in my main panel in my house. This is in metal conduit for most of what I can see but I have found direct buried romex to my shed (which I disconnected and cut out) so this may be partially too. I'll have to dig after I power it down. I'm sure a shovel into that would be exciting.

I need to run a new service but there is so much bad or conflicting info out there and I'm having a hard time figuring it out.

My plan is to run new wire in pvc conduit, end to end (60 - 65 ft), with #4 to support a 100A. I have a 230 welder, a 5hp- 230 air compressor and plan to add a split AC/HP in a few months after i finish out the detached garage.

I'm not sure what wire type or what grounding I need to add. Sounds like 2 rods, 8 ft apart into the ground bus, separate from the neutral (which I don't have now).

Any help is appreciated!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wow that is seriously messed up

Romex is a brand of NM-b

NM-b is not allowed outdoors or underground

UF-b is similar to NM-b and is allowed outside and underground

The cable you have appears to have paper in it.

But the large neutral wire is really messed up

If you want 100a, you will need #3 cu or #1 al

you could go with #2 al MHF mobile home feeder and 90a breaker

Dont forget 2 ground rods and an isolated neutral bar

 

[Innovate1]

Are those pics of your house panel or your garage sub panel? I am guessing the garage. Otherwise that 100A breaker is WAY to big for that wire. If at the garage its fine as it's only a disconnect. Sounds like you have this mostly figured out. Two rods at least 6 ft apart. 4 wires - includes ground and neutral.

#4 copper isn't good for 100A. Need #3 I think. Or #1 aluminum which is what I did - XHHW in conduit.

 

[Terry D]

There is nothing right about what you have now, you need to get rid of that as soon as you can.

I would run 1 1/4 Pvc 18" deep from house to the garage with (3) #2 XHHW's Aluminum and (1) #6 XHHW Aluminum for the equipment ground. Put it on a 2-pole 90 amp breaker in your main panel and install a new 100 amp main breaker panel in the garage, this will satisfy your main disconnect requirements. Install a separate ground bar and don't bond the neutral buss to the panel. Keep all the neutrals and grounds separate. Install 2 ground rods outside and use a #6 copper to connect the rods to the ground bar

 

[teamextreme]

There is nothing right about what you have now, you need to get rid of that as soon as you can.

I would run 1 1/4 Pvc 18" deep from house to the garage with (3) #2 XHHW's Aluminum and (1) #6 XHHW Aluminum for the equipment ground. Put it on a 2-pole 90 amp breaker in your main panel and install a new 100 amp main breaker panel in the garage, this will satisfy your main disconnect requirements. Install a separate ground bar and don't bond the neutral buss to the panel. Keep all the neutrals and grounds separate. Install 2 ground rods outside and use a #6 copper to connect the rods to the ground bar

And here is the best advice you're going to get. Follow this. Done.

 

[Innovate1]

The garage panel looks clean and in good condition although the wiring has a number of issues. Backfed main breaker but I think that is ok although not as obvious which is the main. Remove the neutral ground screw and put some proper clamps on the wires through the knockouts and it seems acceptable to me with proper ground rods and new feed wires. A new panel is cheap compared to the other things needed and would be nice but not really required as far as I can tell.

 

[1Garageman]

That is so scary! I would investigate on your home panel also.

 

[jeffwww]

So... let me make sure I have the grounding correct. That seems to be the worst of this panel.

New ground #6 ALU from house panel to garage panel? 2 new ground rods both to garage subpanel with #6 copper. Pull all grounds off the neutral bar and move to ground bar.

Then upgrade the feed with #2 ALU for both legs and neutral with a 90A breaker in my main panel.

I just had the house panel upgraded to a new 200A panel when I ran out of spaces last year by a master electrician (I know that doesn't guarantee) and it looked good to me. This garage panel is a mess though.

 

[yeldogt]

So... let me make sure I have the grounding correct. That seems to be the worst of this panel.

New ground #6 ALU from house panel to garage panel? 2 new ground rods both to garage subpanel with #6 copper. Pull all grounds off the neutral bar and move to ground bar.

Then upgrade the feed with #2 ALU for both legs and neutral with a 90A breaker in my main panel.

I just had the house panel upgraded to a new 200A panel when I ran out of spaces last year by a master electrician (I know that doesn't guarantee) and it looked good to me. This garage panel is a mess though.

So the guy never took a look at the other panel when he reconnected it ?

 

[Terry D]

So... let me make sure I have the grounding correct. That seems to be the worst of this panel.

New ground #6 ALU from house panel to garage panel? 2 new ground rods both to garage subpanel with #6 copper. Pull all grounds off the neutral bar and move to ground bar.

Then upgrade the feed with #2 ALU for both legs and neutral with a 90A breaker in my main panel.

I just had the house panel upgraded to a new 200A panel when I ran out of spaces last year by a master electrician (I know that doesn't guarantee) and it looked good to me. This garage panel is a mess though.

Yes, i personally would also replace the garage panel with a main breaker panel. For the little extra cost it would be, since your main panel is new, now your garage panel and everything connecting the two would be new. Peace of mind. You would be good to go for a long time. Plus for that existing garage panel to be code compliant, it would need a hold down kit installed on that 100 amp breaker being back fed

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[Terry D]

So the guy never took a look at the other panel when he reconnected it ?

Crazy, aint it.

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[wyliesdiesels]

The garage panel looks clean and in good condition although the wiring has a number of issues. Backfed main breaker but I think that is ok although not as obvious which is the main.

The main is the 100a breaker on the left with the NM-b going to it.

A backfed main does require a hold down kit depending on when this was installed and it can be hard to tell if it has one depending on the model.

 

[Terry D]

The main is the 100a breaker on the left with the NM-b going to it.

A backfed main does require a hold down kit depending on when this was installed and it can be hard to tell if it has one depending on the model.

Im not going to get into a arguement here. Once again, it is done differently across the US. But, and im just going by how it is done around here, dont know how it is un the OPs area.But here, once you open something like that up, and refeed it with new wire, it is no longer grandfathered in, it has to be brought up to code. Which in some places it is code. We can go back and forth on this all day. The OP needs to check his areas code

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[theoldwizard1]

My panel goes back on about 60 ft of wire, all looking to be Romex 10/2, to a 40 Amp breaker in my main panel in my house.

Are those pics of your house panel or your garage sub panel?

He did say garage so that 100A breaker is just a disconnect.

Likely, this was a legal at the time it was installed. Not sure what that black heavy gauge wire is for.

 

[theoldwizard1]

you could go with #2 al MHF mobile home feeder and 90a breaker (in the house).

Dont forget 2 ground rods and an isolated neutral bar

Most cost effective solution !

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Im not going to get into a arguement here. Once again, it is done differently across the US. But, and im just going by how it is done around here, dont know how it is un the OPs area.But here, once you open something like that up, and refeed it with new wire, it is no longer grandfathered in, it has to be brought up to code. Which in some places it is code. We can go back and forth on this all day. The OP needs to check his areas code

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umm ok im not even sure what it is youre saying may not be to code.

you didnt cite anything specific.

What is it are you saying that wouldnt be grandfathered or not to code in certain areas?

 

[Terry D]

Sorry, i was talking about a hold done kit when back feeding a breaker. Guess i forgot to say that. I jumped the gun saying it was required. It may or may not be required in his area

umm ok im not even sure what it is youre saying may not be to code.

you didnt cite anything specific.

What is it are you saying that wouldnt be grandfathered or not to code in certain areas?

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[Norcal]

Sorry, i was talking about a hold done kit when back feeding a breaker. Guess i forgot to say that. I jumped the gun saying it was required. It may or may not be required in his area

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A hold would be required for that panel and has for many NEC editions, (guessing early 1990’s is when it started) only panels that does not require one is a bolt on back fed breaker, language only states plug in breakers.

 

[jeffwww]

It has a hold down on the 100A breaker i'm pretty sure. I can't pull it out of the panel.

That 4G wire appears to be a ground. I see it outside of the garage heading into the dirt. I'd have to dig but I'm guessing thats what it is since It doesn't go back to the panel.

Looking in the house panel I see it is actually on a 30A breaker (Guy labeled my box wrong). So I guess the wire size is ok but the wire type is not.

The junction box on the side of my house is where 2 different nm-bs are spiced together. One to my garage and another to a shed that I have disconnected in the main panel. I think I'm going to get rid of that, I don't want any cut wire on my feed.

Should my main panel have the grounds and neutrals all on the same block? Looks like I may have issues here too.

 

[Terry D]

It has a hold down on the 100A breaker i'm pretty sure. I can't pull it out of the panel.

That 4G wire appears to be a ground. I see it outside of the garage heading into the dirt. I'd have to dig but I'm guessing thats what it is since It doesn't go back to the panel.

Looking in the house panel I see it is actually on a 30A breaker (Guy labeled my box wrong). So I guess the wire size is ok but the wire type is not.

The junction box on the side of my house is where 2 different nm-bs are spiced together. One to my garage and another to a shed that I have disconnected in the main panel. I think I'm going to get rid of that, I don't want any cut wire on my feed.

Should my main panel have the grounds and neutrals all on the same block? Looks like I may have issues here too.

Main panel can have the neutrals and grounds on the same bar, just not sub panels

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[theoldwizard1]

Plus for that existing garage panel to be code compliant, it would need a hold down kit installed on that 100 amp breaker being back fed

If you are refering to this 100A breaker

That is NOT back feeding ! Not sure exactly what the code book says about labeling, but I am sure it is legal !

 

[jeffwww]

When you buy this wire do you get all black and tape the ends? HD sells a 500ft roll of black 2awg xhhw but I don't see any 3 color or anything.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Main panel can have the neutrals and grounds on the same bar, just not sub panels

Not true on new construction. Only allowed if "grandfathered".

 

[Terry D]

If you are refering to this 100A breaker

That is NOT back feeding ! Not sure exactly what the code book says about labeling, but I am sure it is legal !

Huh,

That breaker is being back fed from the main panel in the house. What are you talking about labeling

 

[Terry D]

Not true on new construction. Only allowed if "grandfathered".

Neutrals and grounds can and MUST be bonded together in the first means of disconnect with over current protection

 

[Terry D]

When you buy this wire do you get all black and tape the ends? HD sells a 500ft roll of black 2awg xhhw but I don't see any 3 color or anything.

Yes, get all black and identify with colored tape. Anything smaller than #4 cannot be identified by tape, The jacket has to have continuous color. The #6 EGC must have a green continuous jacket

 

[wyliesdiesels]

If you are refering to this 100A breaker

That is NOT back feeding ! Not sure exactly what the code book says about labeling, but I am sure it is legal !

uhhh yeah it IS back feeding. what on earth are you talking about?

When you buy this wire do you get all black and tape the ends? HD sells a 500ft roll of black 2awg xhhw but I don't see any 3 color or anything.

Buy MHF mobile home feeder

https://www.wireandcableyourway.com/2-2-2-4-aluminum-mobile-home-feeder-cable.html

Main panel can have the neutrals and grounds on the same bar, just not sub panels

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Not true on new construction. Only allowed if "grandfathered".

what?

you're incorrect

neutral and ground are bonded in the main service panel ALWAYS, forever. grandfathering has nothing to do with this

Are you paying attention?

 

[jeffwww]

This is why it's hard to find good information. I think it's kind of obvious that a breaker bringing power to a panel is back fed. The label on the box even says (back fed main breaker?).

I think my garage panel is old code, 1 ground and all bonded was the norm. My main issue is the NM-b wire feeding the service, then bringing it up to current code since I'm upgrading the feed.

So I am bringing a neutral and a ground from the house panel (which is the same thing there) and terminating them to an isolated ground bar, and isolated neutral in the garage?

I think I can make this work now. I appreciate all the help!

 

[pattenp]

………...
So I am bringing a neutral and a ground from the house panel (which is the same thing there) and terminating them to an isolated ground bar, and isolated neutral in the garage?

I think I can make this work now. I appreciate all the help!

To isolate means to not be bonded. The ground bar is bonded to the case. Only the neutral bar is isolated, not bonded to ground/case.

 

[Norcal]

To isolate means to not be bonded. The ground bar is bonded to the case. Only the neutral bar is isolated, not bonded to ground/case.

Some panels have permanently bonded neutrals, suitable for use only as service equipment.

 

[Innovate1]

This is why it's hard to find good information. I think it's kind of obvious that a breaker bringing power to a panel is back fed. The label on the box even says (back fed main breaker?).

I think my garage panel is old code, 1 ground and all bonded was the norm. My main issue is the NM-b wire feeding the service, then bringing it up to current code since I'm upgrading the feed.

So I am bringing a neutral and a ground from the house panel (which is the same thing there) and terminating them to an isolated ground bar, and isolated neutral in the garage?

I think I can make this work now. I appreciate all the help!

It looks like your garage panel has a green ground screw connecting the neutral bar to the case. Just below and a little left of the 100A breaker. A little hard to tell from the pics but the panel also has a ground bar that is unused that would indicate that too. If so you can remove it to isolate the neutral bar from the box. That is very common in current panels. Replacing the panel is a better approach as it resolves any questions about the backfed breaker as main but your panel doesn't look all that old. If you buy the same brand you can reuse all the breakers.

 

[Innovate1]

Just was looking at the back fed breaker label. That looks like it came with the panel which would mean the breaker has a hold down. Given that I might just keep the panel and make sure the main is labeled on the cover. Correct the feed wires and isolate the neutral, move grounds to ground bar, make sure the ground rods are good, and you should be good to go.

 

[jeffwww]

I think the 4G jumper wire needs to be removed and the ground wire needs to be moved to the left side, Neutral stays on the right. Then I can move the Circuit wires to the correct sides.