garage with basement parking/workshop

[fatkidracer]

i have got the go ahead from the CEO to start plans for a new functional garage for our home. the current one is a crappy redo of a burned out shell. it has no heat, a single 18ft door and just is not big enough.

i have land, but not level land. the plan now is to tear the old garage down and build next to the house which has a walk out basement. my dream forever has been 3 parking stalls level with the driveway and then 3 play stalls below with an access road around the side.

i will post pictures of the current garage and proposed new site later. but for now i want peoples opinions on some things.

poured walls (like my home) or block?

pre-stressed planks or beams and decking? my family is in the steel fabrication business and i can get the beams for cost.

heat source and where to put it? we are finally getting NG installed before the cold sets in so i will have that available. would like to go in floor on both levels. but both levels will have combustibles so where to locate the boiler?

am i crazy?

if anyone could please post pictures of their similar set ups that would be great!

 

[phred]

Here's what I did for mine. Steel frame with composite steel deck and 5000 psi concrete


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[fatkidracer]

Pics

current garage

kind of shows the steepness of the terrain

my best paint explanation

you can kind of see the contour lines showing the fall of the land

 

[theoldwizard1]

Never a fan of block walls below grade. Too easy to crack with any earth movement on the outside.

With a steep hill like that I don't know how important waterproofing/draining would be on the uphill side. I would NOT skip it just to save a buck ! Asphalt based waterproofer, dimpled drainboard, sock cover drain pipe, back fill with gravel.

I am always a fan of radiant heated floors in a garage/basement.

 

[fatkidracer]

Here's what I did for mine. Steel frame with composite steel deck and 5000 psi concrete
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cool do you have a build thread?

 

[fatkidracer]

Never a fan of block walls below grade. Too easy to crack with any earth movement on the outside.

With a steep hill like that I don't know how important waterproofing/draining would be on the uphill side. I would NOT skip it just to save a buck ! Asphalt based waterproofer, dimpled drainboard, sock cover drain pipe, back fill with gravel.

I am always a fan of radiant heated floors in a garage/basement.

well the basement in the house is dry and while the walls themselves seem well built i question the outside prep-work such as drain tile and back-fill. i will not be cutting corners and i have feeling i am looking into the start of a 100k project but maybe i am wrong.

 

[Michigan Mike]

Poured wall and if you have access to beams and decking at cost I would deginatly go that way. If your family is in the business you probalbly know a good engineer and also have a good idea for contractors to pour the walls and floor. It basically looks like a commercial job. I would go with the people that you normally work with and know the quality of work.

 

[wssix99]

my dream forever has been 3 parking stalls level with the driveway and then 3 play stalls below with an access road around the side.

This is an expensive and maintenance-intensive dream... Structurally, the problem is pretty straight forward - but there are some maintenance challenges that come with the configuration.

Presumably, you'd be putting the wet, salty, snow covered cars up top. No matter what you build the garage out of, your odds of having a soup of nastyness dripping down on your lower garage within a few years from all that is high. You can put a commercial liner on the floor above to stop this, but that's just a lot more expense. To the extent that you can design the everyday garage to be off by itself, you should be able to be more cost effective.

Radiant floors are great and you can put their boiler inside the house - no problem.

 

[fatkidracer]

Presumably, you'd be putting the wet, salty, snow covered cars up top. No matter what you build the garage out of, your odds of having a soup of nastyness dripping down on your lower garage within a few years from all that is high.

do you think a properly poured and sloped upper floor with full length floor drains under each car would really leak to the lower level?

this is something i have never thought of and why i started the thread.

 

[fatkidracer]

Poured wall and if you have access to beams and decking at cost I would deginatly go that way. If your family is in the business you probalbly know a good engineer and also have a good idea for contractors to pour the walls and floor. It basically looks like a commercial job. I would go with the people that you normally work with and know the quality of work.

i have a PE on staff here at the shop and several contractors who have done this type of work before (never cars up top but patios and the like)

 

[Zeke]

Why not consult with the various floor coating experts here about sealing the upper floor? If this snow melt is gonna be a problem, ask your PE about designing a drain system for the upper deck.

I like your idea but not seeing too much of the slope, I think there's a challenge there regarding turning space for your driveway down to that level. I'm not getting anything out of your topo map.

 

[Stuart in MN]

do you think a properly poured and sloped upper floor with full length floor drains under each car would really leak to the lower level?

I'd say there's the potential of leaks but it will depend on what method you use, proper placement of drains and floor slopes, maintenance and probably a bunch of other things.

Recently there's been a crew fixing leaks in the floors of our parking ramp at work, but it's constructed with prestressed planks and the leaks are in the joints between the planks. If you do a full floor with a steel deck it will probably be a lot better, but I suppose that over time salt and water could seep through cracks in the concrete and cause the deck to rust out.

 

[fatkidracer]

i am thinking now i might have someone come in and spray the decking before the pour with some type of rhino type liner. there are a few mobile guys running around here sealing up metal impoundments around frack tanks.

 

[Showkey]

Not to derail this thread.....

Phed.........love trees and wooded lots, just not that close to any structure. No up side other shade and too much down side.

 

[Falcon67]

Sounds like a fun plan - thinking "batcave" lol. I would think more than enough technology/coatings exist to resist snow/wet/salt dripping vehicles. Otherwise there'd be thousands of house garages and parking garages with big holes in the floors. A premium epoxy coating with some non-slip should be more than resistive to deterioration.

 

[Voi]

My dream forever has been 3 parking stalls level with the driveway and then 3 play stalls below with an access road around the side.

am i crazy?

I don't think you're crazy - I've seen it done a few times in my area. Once with a pre-cast and twice with a site pour of some sort.

You might check out "The Concrete Underground" thread in the Gallery section. I know he used those insulated forms for floors of his house and he might have done an over/under type garage with them as well.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145073

 

[phred]

Not to derail this thread.....

Phed.........love trees and wooded lots, just not that close to any structure. No up side other shade and too much down side.

Yeah I like trees too. I live in the city. It's about 2k per tree for recompense for removing a healthy tree and to have them removed is about 4K each. No where to drop them. They have to be crane lifted out in sections. I need a 500 ton crane to make the reach from the street. Remove 2 trees equals about 12k. I used that money to buy my lift and compressor and a few other goodies


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[phred]

cool do you have a build thread?

No build thread. To many irons in the fire to put one together. I've got lots of photos and stories if I ever slow down enough to put them together


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[fatkidracer]

when i get home from work tonight i am going to take some more pictures to give everyone a better idea of the lay of the land.

 

[4 FN 27]

Great opportunity to double your square footage...

I have an over under 54 feet wide by 34 deep with a Bonus Room above attached to the house. Both spaces are heated using Pex in the Concrete with a Geothermal heat source.

The Walls are poured and the "deck" is Moline (Spancrete) planks grouted in place. On top of that is a 1 piece membrane to keep the water from getting below. There is 2 inches a foam insulation with the Pex stapled to it. On top of that is 6 inches of Concrete.

I have a 48 foot Trench Drain which drain through the East Wall and connects to a common outlet with the lower garage trench drain which is 16 feet long perpendicular to the door.

Both concrete floors were prepped during the pour to be coated with 3m Quartzlite and epoxy. So far not a drop of water or leeching down the lower garage walls after 8 Minnesota winters and at least 500+ car washings in the upper garage.

2 things I would have done different:

1. In place of poured concrete walls I would have done ICF poured walls. The insulating properties are worth the investment. And much easier to finish out than firing out concrete.

2. I would have done the elevation plan myself and not left it up to the architect. He made a minor mistake which turned into a major error. He did not use the top of the floor drain on the upper garage as the starting point to build everything off of. The cost me 6 inches of valuable head space in the lower garage and cost me 6 inches on the garage door also. I almost made them tear down that whole end of the house and start over. If I did it would have bankrupt him and I would have had to have someone else take over. Use the top of the floor drain to set everything else.

One thing to consider on the lower Garage. 75% of my walls on the lower Garage are below grade. This is great because it doesn't cost hardly anything to heat it. However in the summer it stays nice and cool but I have to run a dehumidifier 24-7.

Sorry I only have pics with Cars in them. I'll see if I can shoot some tonight of the construction.

 

[fatkidracer]

great info and pictures! thank you! love the Z28! why the wired spacing on the far right door in the first picture? so you if i understand correct you have the planks with a membrane then pex and more concrete. man that must weigh a ton!

 

[fatkidracer]

here are some more pictures of the proposed site. hope they show the fall and lay of the land better.

 

[wssix99]

do you think a properly poured and sloped upper floor with full length floor drains under each car would really leak to the lower level?

this is something i have never thought of and why i started the thread.

Definitely. All concrete cracks, no matter where you pour it. The elevated slab will put more stress on these areas because it will bend more as cars move over it. (Think of a thin stretched rubber sheet with a marble rolling over it. All floors do this when loads move over them, but with less relative deflection.) So, you will get hairline cracks and they will move a little bit as you drive cars around.

The sure-fire way to take care of the problem is to use a membrane, like 4 FN 27 did and describes. The membrane is flexible and will be durable for this situations. Other coatings, like epoxy are more brittle and may not be as durable.

i am thinking now i might have someone come in and spray the decking before the pour with some type of rhino type liner. there are a few mobile guys running around here sealing up metal impoundments around frack tanks.

Coating the pan won't work for you. The deck is part of your reinforcement for the composite slab and the concrete needs to bond to the metal surface and hold on to it - just like rebar. Coating the deck and that interface will weaken the floor. Plus, you don't want water and salt pooling above that liner and under the concrete. It will eventually make a bad situation, somewhere. The membrane on top will keep the floor happy.


^ So, all this can work - for a cost. The one thing you have at your disposal for no incremental cost is a lot of land. If you can come up with another architectural arrangement where your slop garage is separate (with nothing below it) and your clean/working garage has dry living space above it, (presumably the type of space where garage noise wouldn't bother people) you can avoid all the steel, concrete decking, slab lining, associated maintenance, etc. This way, you would probably end up with more shell and roof to build, but I would guess that those parts would be less expensive than the structure you'd need otherwise.

 

[4 FN 27]

great info and pictures! thank you! love the Z28! why the wired spacing on the far right door in the first picture? so you if i understand correct you have the planks with a membrane then pex and more concrete. man that must weigh a ton!

Thank you. that Z28 is by far the best street car I have ever driven hands down.

The wider space is so that bay can be used for washing vehicles. Little more space to the wall on the right and a little more space to the vehicle on the left. This way in the winter when I bring my truck in from plowing I can rinse it down and get the salt off.

The floor was engineered that way by design.

Layers go as follows from the bottom up:

Planks
Membrane
2 inch foam insulation
pex
6 inches of concrete
3M Quartzlite

I took these pics this morning. They don't really show anything detailed about the construction. I'll see if I can find some of those tonight on my home computer.

First pic is from the inside of the lower garage. This is the only part on the lower that is framed in for the doors. If I did it in ICF there would be no framing. We would have poured the whole thing leaving the RO's for the doors.

Second pic is the lower garage access to the basement and how it attaches to the house. This will all get finished some day when I retire. Kind of like a display/game room.

Third pic is the trench drain in the upper garage. The pitch to the drain is 1/8 inch per foot. I did not want a whole bunch of pitch and because of the architects error we were very limited on options.

Fourth pic shows I brought water up from the lower garage. Also added some cabins I reclaimed from the old farm house we burned down. Put a sink in and over head cabinets as well. From the pick I can see it is time to clean the garage.

 

[toyotadriver]

I think your plan sounds neat and if you do it, you MUST post pics!

That said, have you started getting prices yet? This garage idea of yours is going to cost a fortune. You already have a nice garage on site. Why not do some filling, maybe a retaining wall, and then expand that nice garage you already have? I know it won't give you the two level garage that you dream about but the cost would be WAY WAY lower.

Price the whole project out. Then add at least 25% to the entire cost. Something this exotic will most certainly have some bigger cost overruns. 25% might not be enough.

 

[toyotadriver]

Yeah I like trees too. I live in the city. It's about 2k per tree for recompense for removing a healthy tree and to have them removed is about 4K each. No where to drop them. They have to be crane lifted out in sections. I need a 500 ton crane to make the reach from the street. Remove 2 trees equals about 12k. I used that money to buy my lift and compressor and a few other goodies


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Your city charges you to remove a tree from your own property,?

 

[the GOAT]

I've wanted to do a similar garage/bank barn on my property. Have a perfect spot for a garage but it's also on a steep slope.

I've talked a few times with the Code enforcement officer about doing a wood framed garage floor. I plan to do 2x10 or 12's 12" on center with the appropriate steel beams supporting them. Two layers of 3/4" ply, cement board and tile for fire resistance. The CEO has no problem with that if I get an engineer to sign off on the structural beams.

Wouldn't be able to do a two post lift but it would be easy to make a mechanics 'pit'.

Lots of barns here in Maine with far less support and wood plank floors have vehicles in them every day.

 

[fatkidracer]

I think your plan sounds neat and if you do it, you MUST post pics!

That said, have you started getting prices yet? This garage idea of yours is going to cost a fortune. You already have a nice garage on site. Why not do some filling, maybe a retaining wall, and then expand that nice garage you already have? I know it won't give you the two level garage that you dream about but the cost would be WAY WAY lower.

Price the whole project out. Then add at least 25% to the entire cost. Something this exotic will most certainly have some bigger cost overruns. 25% might not be enough.

oh i bet it's going to be every bit of 100k maybe a little more once outfitted. but to build a retaining wall big enough and fill and compact enough dirt to get a spot big enough for 2500sf of garage space + build the garage and make it look right will cost more. at least by my calculations.

i have a 40x40 pole barn shell you can see in one of the pictures, for reference you can sled ride from my front yard alllll the way to it (450ft) in the winter. the house and current garage and that pole barn sit on the only really level parts of my 15 acres. i could tear down that pole barn and build a nice building with room for 3+ cars but i can't get to it. i got a price to fix and gravel the access road to the pole barn and at just a touch over 1000ft it was over 20K from two different contractors. so access to level ground is an expensive problem as well.

 

[fatkidracer]

The floor was engineered that way by design.

Layers go as follows from the bottom up:

Planks
Membrane
2 inch foam insulation
pex
6 inches of concrete
3M Quartzlite

thanks for more pictures and the info on the floor. being tied into the house is cool but i am sure an added expense i don't need.

that lower door looks to small to fit that dually through! i see you have an affinity for black powerful chevys, as do I!

 

[toyotadriver]

oh i bet it's going to be every bit of 100k maybe a little more once outfitted. but to build a retaining wall big enough and fill and compact enough dirt to get a spot big enough for 2500sf of garage space + build the garage and make it look right will cost more. at least by my calculations.

i have a 40x40 pole barn shell you can see in one of the pictures, for reference you can sled ride from my front yard alllll the way to it (450ft) in the winter. the house and current garage and that pole barn sit on the only really level parts of my 15 acres. i could tear down that pole barn and build a nice building with room for 3+ cars but i can't get to it. i got a price to fix and gravel the access road to the pole barn and at just a touch over 1000ft it was over 20K from two different contractors. so access to level ground is an expensive problem as well.

I may be wrong but I can't see how you can build what you want to build for $100k. I suspect you are WAY low on how much that will cost.

You also want to change the road access according to your posted pics including building a new road to your existing pole barn. Have you included that into your estimates?

I think you have a beautiful place. But, how the condition of the house? Looks like the deck is nearing the end of its life and the pool was clearly not maintained so it does appear to me that your house might also need some remodeling/refurbishment. If so, have you figured that price in as well?

Why not add onto the garage on the left side as you are looking at it? Appears from the pics to be more level there so wouldn't need as much site prep work. You wouldn't have to change the driveway either so save on that expense as well.

Of course, if you have the money then my concerns are meaningless and go ahead with whatever you plan to do...but you still MUST post pics!

 

[fatkidracer]

I may be wrong but I can't see how you can build what you want to build for $100k. I suspect you are WAY low on how much that will cost.

the 100K may be wrong but i don't think it is like 100K wrong or anything. i will be doing a decent amount myself, plus getting good buddy pricing on the things i can't or don't want to do.

You also want to change the road access according to your posted pics including building a new road to your existing pole barn. Have you included that into your estimates?

the half moon driveway is simply an idea i had to make access easier for my non-driving mother (backup camera, sensors and all she still hits stuff) the road to the pole barn can be years down the road or never. i have another access road to it from the other side of the property.

I think you have a beautiful place. But, how the condition of the house? Looks like the deck is nearing the end of its life and the pool was clearly not maintained so it does appear to me that your house might also need some remodeling/refurbishment. If so, have you figured that price in as well?

haha you saw that huh, i get reminded every day the deck gets redone before the garage breaks ground! it is on the docket for the spring when we get our tax returns. it was the last part of the house redo that we ran out of money for when we bought the place. it was a bank repo left over from 2009 recession and sat empty forever. got it for a song and could never even build the house on a city lot for what i paid for the house, garage, barn, pond, and 15 acres 10min outside town. after we closed i worked on it every night for about 4 months before we moved in. all new carpet, hardwood, paint, appliances, fixtures the works.

Why not add onto the garage on the left side as you are looking at it? Appears from the pics to be more level there so wouldn't need as much site prep work. You wouldn't have to change the driveway either so save on that expense as well.

the pictures are very deceiving. to the left of the garage is about a 8-10 foot tall steep bank i can barely ride my tractor on, plus to make any meaningful addition i would think i would be into the road setback.

Of course, if you have the money then my concerns are meaningless and go ahead with whatever you plan to do...but you still MUST post pics!

oh i am not rich by any stretch of the imagination. like i said if i didn't by the place from the bank i would have never been able to afford it. the guy was trying to sell it for 450+K before the bank took it and i didn't pay close to that, so there is a lot of equity in the home now that it is fixed up and livable again. this will be done with a home equity loan push cash saved up.

 

[fatkidracer]

here is a screen shot of the whole property the green line is the "road" that goes to the pole barn shell. you can drive it in a car when it's dry, you need 4x4 to get up the hills in the wet.

 

[4 FN 27]

thanks for more pictures and the info on the floor. being tied into the house is cool but i am sure an added expense i don't need.

that lower door looks to small to fit that dually through! i see you have an affinity for black powerful chevys, as do I!

The Door is 10 x 8.5 high...

Powerful Chevys are my weakness amongst other vises involving Gun Powder, Evil Black Guns, Tools, Snowmachines and Garage space...

I have been told there are worse habits.

 

[wssix99]

Your city charges you to remove a tree from your own property,?

It's more like a fine and common for a City where trees and green space are scarce. Usually if you remove a tree and replace it with another one that meets the City's spec, the charge is waived. ... But, you still need a permit.

They have to be crane lifted out in sections. I need a 500 ton crane to make the reach from the street. Remove 2 trees equals about 12k.

We had to remove a tree like that and it had grown up over 100+ years around a fence, barbed wire, and other nastiness. So, we had to cut the trunk in to huge sections (praying that the saw wouldn't hit anything) and then rent a large backhoe loader to move them in to a dumpster to have it hauled away.

 

[kbs2244]

Michigan Mike as the idea.

You are describing the garage a friend of mine has.
He has no need for heat at he lower level.
The below grade temps even out both summer and winter.
(This is in northern Illinois.)
You will need to build a good sized turnaround space for the downstairs garage.
The only problem was snow plowing the down slope along side the garage.
But if it is for "toys" that may not be much of a problem.

 

[readhead]

We are in the process of doing a garage like this right now. Straight in on top and drive around to the bottom. Steel and decking installed for around 12K. We do several of this type of garage floor every year. It is more economical than retaining walls and back fill. Sixteen years worth and never had a call back for leaks.

 

[fatkidracer]

We are in the process of doing a garage like this right now. Straight in on top and drive around to the bottom. Steel and decking installed for around 12K. We do several of this type of garage floor every year. It is more economical than retaining walls and back fill. Sixteen years worth and never had a call back for leaks.

can you post pictures? i understand if you can't since it's a clients house.

 

[fatkidracer]

just had an end of the day BS session with the engineer at the shop. he said a 125k budget should get it done. he has been to the house and he said even with my friends doing the work i would have 60k+ in just a retaining wall and fill. so i am on the right while still expensive track with the over under garage.

he also dose civil, commercial, and residential consulting engineering on the side so he has his hands in everything and knows everyone.

 

[readhead]

No pictures. Haven't started erecting yet.