Garage / Workshop Preplanning and Thoughts.

[Super38ACP]

Greetings Garage Journal

'm interested in thoughts / experiences with this. If I proceed with it now, I will need it finished reasonably quickly so I'll likely have someone handle it start to finish.

I've requested quotes from:

A well known post frame metal building company.

A recommended local contractor for stick built.

I have an area leveled and coated with crushed gravel, this was installed by the previous owner. I am wanting to use it in part but might prefer modifications.

Though I will not install it immediately I want to accommodate a lift.

The well known building company says they are familar with this, but can't (at least from preliminary conversations) customize the trusses for extra clearance, the walls will have to be taller to accommodate.

The local contractor says he is pretty sure he can have trusses custom designed for additional clearance, he's unfalialar with the concrete requirements for lifts (he hasn't discussed with his concrete contractor though) I'm assuming I can pull some information from some one like Rotary to help? Looks like a Rotary 10,000LB capacity asymmetric lift requires 4.5" minimum thickness 3000 psi strength and 12 foot ceiling clearance.

I would prefer to shorten the walls and create additional clearance inside with custom trusses, but I would love to hear any thoughts or experience on this.

I expect the stick built structure will be cheaper, but don't have anything other than "guesstimates" based on preliminary phone conversations.

I am thinking that I would prefer to remove the wood ties and build concrete block / CMU sides straight up, I will obviously remove the two trees on the far side. (and the brush LOL) I have two thoughts about the chopped corner on the far side, one being to build it out, the other being to put a lean to / storage / compressor back there.

This area is 28 x 33 inside the ties to the forward portion of the chopped corner there is a bout 6 feet back to rear wall, I believe if we built walls straight up, it would accommodate 30x40.

I will want electrical, and may want to run water to it for a hand washing sink (but not a bath room) I always hear plumbing complicates the expense and permitting, but not sure how true that is.

This are was used to park a truck and RV, there is 220V available under the deck (there is a box with an RV plug), so I am thinking that could be used to supply power through a proper underground conduit to the garage.

So tell me your thoughts and what you might do with the area for a hobby shop type set up.

 

[jack stand]

Yes, yes, yes remove and replace the RR ties. They will do that themselves. I'd build whatever you decide outside of the existing footprint and and have minimal backfill along with at least a level walkway around the building.

 

[Maxcustody]

It is a good start having a pad, however I learned quickly something looking flat is not always level and within proper grade. You may need more excavation work for it to be done right. I suggest you start here...........................Tons of information and great builds. Good luck.

Garage Gallery

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www.garagejournal.com

 

[Super38ACP]

Heres some additional photos. The Sat image perspective is slightly off but hopefully can help with what I'm working with.

 

[Mainiac Mat]

My take (worth exactly what you're paying for it)....

Think through what it is that you really want to be able to do out there, and then don't cheap out on the fundamentals. For a garage workshop, I'd suggest the following:

• I'd rip out the RR ties and have a proper footing and 8" thick formed concrete frost wall poured (don't skimp on the re-bar).
• pre-planned footing for the lift will prevent headaches in the future and are easy and cheap to do. They don't need to be formed... they can just pour a puddle in the correct location at the same time they do the footings. Lift manufacturers should have specific footing requirements online, but it ain't exactly rocket science.
• Pour your slab at least 4" thick (I did 5"). Many will tell you 6", but imho, that's overkill for a garage.
• Have the garage frame stick built with scissors trusses for the desired additional head room. Stick built is cheaper in many ways... insulations, finishing interior walls, running electrical circuits, etc...
• Make it as big as you can afford. At 30' long (front to back) you should be able to spot the lift in the center towards the rear (maximize headroom under the ceiling) and yet still park two vehicles side by side in front of it. I wouldn't go less than 26' wide. 9' wide doors are the minimum, 10' is better, but in your situation I'd consider one 16' door in the center.
• Install at least a 60 amp. 220 v. sub panel.

Unless you have unlimited funds, you're going to make compromises and likely defer some of the finishing details (heat, finished walls, etc...) but don't compromise on the foundation/structure.

 

[Super38ACP]

With respect to the level area:

Yes I agree it will need to be prepped and actually leveled for construction.

The walkway around is something I had not thought of, my idea was to go straight up with block walls and build on top of that. The walkway is intriguing but reduces the available foot print - definitely something to consider.

Appreciate the thoughts Mat - definitely not unlimited funds. Also trying to figure out the gotchas....

I am a little confused about lift footers are these required in addition to the specified concrete thickness and tensile strength - need to research that.

Going through the gallery too..

Thanks all!

 

[Maxcustody]

Wasn't trying to be negative on the existing pad, I was just commenting on my experience with my build. Until we started and I saw how much work actually went into a proper pad, I had no clue. Looking forward to seeing your project progress.

 

[Super38ACP]

Scott - I get it no worries I did not think you were being negative.

I understand it's a bit of an unknown, I hope reworking it will be easier/less costly than starting from scratch. But then again I really don't know what i don't know and some (most, all?) of what I "think" may be wrong.

Heard from the well known Post frame construction building company - site visit Friday

The local contractor said he will get with me next week.

As to what i want to do with it.

In a "former life" I was a professional tech. I worked in GM dealers so where automotive work is concerned there is little I'm afraid to tackle. The F100 in the pictures needs to have the body pulled to finish the frame and do some underside repairs. Once the house is finished (that's another story) and the garage is up that will be the immediate usage. Later I have designs on building another car, it may be a Factory Five, a Caterham or an early mustang, but it will be a complete build. Also there are 2 Harleys (or maybe something else later) that will need to live in there as well as the F100 and one other vehicle. No boats or RVs are planned. I also don't plan to do any work outside of myself or friends and family - and i pretty much have no friends... LOL...

I had not considered putting the lift in the center rear, that could help, maybe bikes on one side, tool boxes on the other and lift in center. That might make a scissor truss work 10 foot walls and the scissors truss could allow extra headroom...

I do agree i'll have to compromise on some things, and may end up finishing out he interior myself later. Job one is to get the structure up dry and wired, on top of a sound foundation.

Robert

 

[Super38ACP]

So Morton says they would want to pour the sidewalls formed with concrete and can do a 30 x 40 x 12 Morton standard building on that. So that's what he will likely quote as long as the Morton standard will work. He said it was recently changed so that a building for the top of concrete can the a Standard Building.

A building on the "Morton foundation" could probably be put on the pad, but the available footprint is too small for my wants.

We discussed a few options and he will look into them and we will talk about it. (like brick facade - he knows we can do the wainscoting in a "nova brick" on the front and the rest of the wainscoting in a brick red colored metal, white walls, black roof and trim.

He did not seem enthusiastic about insulated slab says they never do them here but will discuss with concrete guy. They always do vapor barrier. Felt the best (and usual way) to do the lift is a 4" slab with 6" deep pockets in the area the lift will be.

10x24 door.

I'm a little scared of what the concrete quote is going to be.

 

[no704]

I’d get a compaction test done on that before making any further decisions.

 

[Super38ACP]

I’d get a compaction test done on that before making any further decisions.

Talk to me about this, I was wondering if some sort of testing could be done.

Though I do not think it makes a difference to Morton RE the poured walls because of the way the building will install.

 

[no704]

That has been back filled. If it was not done in proper lifts and compacted it will settle over time allowing your building to sink. Now is the time to check it out

 

[Super38ACP]

That has been back filled. If it was not done in proper lifts and compacted it will settle over time allowing your building to sink. Now is the time to check it out

So who would do that sort of testing - is it common? Would a concrete contractor have that ability?

 

[no704]

Depends on area, very common in locations with building in flood plain. Contact your local building inspector, they will have a list of certified folks. From the looks of it I would be surprised if it is good.

 

[Super38ACP]

Well local contractor guy is more on my page, wants to build block wall, reinforced. filled with concrete and 12" block where it is tallest on footings outside the existing footprint, then remove ties, have compaction tested and go from there.

Says can make trusses that will get me 12 foot ceilings 3 feet or less off the wall with 10 foot side walls, wide door though he wants to look at how wide. He actually wanted to put the walk door in front next to a 16 foot but I want it in the side. Can make it match the house, i will do insulation and interior finish work.

I still have not gotten estimates from either though. But that's where we are right now.

 

[u2slow]

I had site stability problems despite a hard top layer, so it had to be dug out deep, trucked-in proper fill, and repacked.

I went with 6" slab because most of the lifts I looked at wanted 5". Due to variability, you have to overshoot. I insisted on rebar too... Otherwise it would have been only driveway mesh.

Man door was not possible next to the OH door because it didn't leave enough of a shear wall; had to be on the side.

I skipped electrical and plumbing because I can do that cheapest myself, later. As it turned out, I was way over budget getting it to lockup anyway.

 

[Juiced06GTO]

Take whatever your budget is and add 30%, being on this forum causes major "project creep"!!

I am nearing the end of my 30x40 build and there is a lot I would have done differently. I had planned on keeping cars in there and being able to work on projects. That is not ideal in a 30x40, I am actually thinking of foregoing the lift in my barn so I can keep the open floor plan and have room to work and have room to store things. I planned out an area in my floor for the lift only to find that it is not really the ideal spot now that I have stuff in there. Moving it from where I put the footings in presents a problem because I put radiant tube in the floor, although the entire floor is a minimum of 5"thick so I could relocate it if I figure out where all the tubes are...

Not sure if you get snow in your area, but a man door on the side of the building will be buried in snow sliding off the roof. I have a 9/12 pitch metal roof on mine and the snow slides off like an avalanche! I went with a traditional pole barn with slab poured in after the building was closed in. Go full foundation if you can, I wish I would have.

The link to my build is in my sig, feel free to check it out for ideas.

 

[Super38ACP]

No significant snow here.

I guess I am being unreasonable in expecting proposals and estimates to come in in a month, perhaps I am being too high maintenance.. little frustrated...

Any one have any contractor/builder/erector recommendations in Knoxville TN?

 

[CraigStu]

The fellow who did that pad may have planned to do a building on top of it but I would not. I agree w/ a couple of posters above. I'd leave the wood for now so it can help retain the pad. But my building would be built completely outside that pad. To me it is kind of like getting a car painted. No pro painter wants to paint over someone elses bodywork and filler. You can do whatever you agree on w/ whoever you select to build it, footers and block, footers and wall poured concrete. Then, once you have that, rip out the wood, and spread whatever the gravel is around to be at least part of the filler below the concrete. To me, I can fix or have fixed a lot of stuff in a stick built garage. But I want to be 100% sure of the foundation, so that 'foundation' for me is not a foundation, because I don't know what is under it. The details of a foundation vary somewhat in different areas of the country. As you talk to your contractor he can advise what he has found to work best in your area.

 

[Monza Harry]

I'll suggest this, plan, plan, plan, sit on that awhile then pick that all apart and plan again. You will find flaws in your plans, [forever] be realistic and realize you wll have some comprises. If you're planing to wash cars etc. or weld or do any torch work a concrete stem wall [6" should be minimum]would be high on my no comprises list. Pre-excavate a trench(s) for water, electrical, gas [if heat or hot water is required] and sewer(?) and a empty conduit for data, alarm and whatever the future may bring. This only needs to safely exit the foot print so doing this later will be easy as cost will grow faster than weeds. Bring your rough ins up to grade as it will be easier to find in ten years when the money/need arises, also include tracer wire on any under slab/grade work. This along with the above excellent suggestions should give you lots to think about. Harry
P.S. conside a tracer for lift pads if you are adding those first [with the slab] again easier to find without x-ray vision. Also take and save pic's with measurements in the pic's of any hidden work.

 

[kbs2244]

I do not like trusses
they waste too much virtical space
I went with a ridge beam roof construction
stick built 8 foot walls on 2 foot block stem walls for 10 foot walls
I used a steel "I" ridge beam
it gave me a vaulted room with a 14 foot ridge height
have your contractor talk to a local steel supplier
they will be able to supply size and construction details

I love the open, high space, room
.

 

[Super38ACP]

I talked to Metallic Today.

Engineered Metal Building Products

Metallic Building Systems offers a proven product line that is custom engineered to achieve superior strength and design flexibility. Our framing products are among the most durable in the industry and our panel systems offer maximum energy efficiency.

www.metallic.com

Drawback is that i will have to do the concrete and pad (they have a couple recommended contractors) This would be a steel frame building.

 

[nadogail]

Steel buildings are rarely bothered by Termites.

Steel buildings require more insulation than wooden ones.

 

[u2slow]

I don't mind trusses. I still have a 19' ceiling, 12/6 pitch, and room for R40 batt insulation. Stem wall is 12-36" depending on grade, so good ground separation for moisture or termites.

 

[Super38ACP]

So for stick build the estimate was 78,000.00 with no electrical and no painting. He did not break out the concrete or anything else. I feel like this is high, but no other estimate to compare it to yet.

Probably going to have to wait until i can do more of the work myself at if they are all in this area.

 

[njk4o5]

So for stick build the estimate was 78,000.00 with no electrical and no painting. He did not break out the concrete or anything else. I feel like this is high, but no other estimate to compare it to yet.

Probably going to have to wait until i can do more of the work myself at if they are all in this area.

your far from me but that quote is double what i just built my stick built 30x40 for in Maine. All i have left is to pour the floor once it gets warm out spring time.

Lumber/siding/roofing/2 windows materials $9800
Framer/roofer/siding labor $8400 (this guy was cheap to do it all most would be double this amount)
Concrete 4' frost walls $9000

I figure another $10k for the floor in the spring

I got custom order doors for $3800 and my framer is installing for $300/door but he is cheap and i give him a hand when i can. Even if you got a framer/roofer siding guy and paid $10k more than my guy charged it would get you to $50k

most car lifts require 4.25" depth concrete min

EDIT: im doing electrical wiring runs and hanging the panel and bringing the power line in myself underground from the house. Having an electrician friend tie in the panel will likley give him a couple grand too. I will also be doing my drywall and painting

 

[u2slow]

So for stick build the estimate was 78,000.00 with no electrical and no painting. He did not break out the concrete or anything else. I feel like this is high, but no other estimate to compare it to yet.

Probably going to have to wait until i can do more of the work myself at if they are all in this area.

That's in league with what mine cost in 2013.

If it's gotten too spendy be the end of concrete and grading, it's a logical point to take a break and let finances recover.

 

[Super38ACP]

Well, umm Morton is almost double stick built. ouch... cant do that...

 

[Shoester]

Well, umm Morton is almost double stick built. ouch... cant do that...

Folks keep telling me that Morton is worth the premium...but I just can't figure out what they are doing that makes them worth 2x the competition.

 

[u2slow]

Doesn't need to be mathematically 'worth it' for folks to say it... that's just a satisfied customer.

What about the people that didn't go with Morton and are happy? Liars? Lol

 

[Super38ACP]

Ok back to this for a minute.

Concrete and block work. block filled with concrete and reinforcement 5" smooth concrete floor concrete under back porch and up to the driveway. 3470 square feet 41,000.00. he had quoted the job less the block work at about half that, so demo and block work ~21,000.00.

How good or bad of a deal does this sound like?

Metallic came in at about that for the building alone as well.