Gas Line Question

[Black_Z28]

Hey guys, had a question regarding the gas line going into my house.

I've attached a couple pictures to help out if I do not use the proper terms, ect. Anyways, I'm looking to add a gas stove and fireplace to my house. Currently the only things gas in my house is the furnace and water heater. My question is the main gas line from the meter to the regulator seems very undersized, and it's copper. Now, I understand copper is not the issue, more so the size. But, it's a 1/2" copper pipe from the meter, then to the regulator, then it goes to black pipe. I was thinking, can I just change out the copper pipe to black pipe? To me it seems like the copper pipe is too small. Then, it jumps up to a larger black pipe. So, the gas system is being restricted by the main line from the meter. I honestly have no idea why it was done this way. Anyone have any ideas on this?

Another note, the T on the outside goes to my garage heater. I would just do another T in black pipe, then a compression fitting to the copper pipe to the garage.

Thanks

 

[strutaeng]

Where are you located? I see snow, so you must be where it's cold

Post a close-up of the meter specifications. They have a Cubic Foot/Hour (CFH) rating. There's online calculators where you input the number and types of appliances and they give you a CFH requirement. There's also tables on sizing piping based on CFH and runs.

Everything does look small to me. Around here I believe copper is not used, but I know it is still widely used in other places.

In the event that your meter does not have enough capacity you can talk to your gas supplier and they may be able to put a larger one.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Appears they have run high pressure gas into the house using that copper and then regulated it down in the house to inches water column and that feeds your current appliances.

Without a lot more information (tube sizes, lengths and pressures) no one can determine your current capacity, much less how much headroom (if any) you might have to add more load.

Since you are dealing with high pressure (based on the secondary regulator in the house)...I'd have to caution you to go ahead and have an HVAC person plumb your new appliances for you. You may have to go all the way back to the meter with your plumbing....if you do, you'll have to regulate that line as well. The whole setup looks pretty hinky to me to begin with. Around here, the copper wouldn't fly.

UNLESS by "gas" you mean "LPG or Propane"...in which case it would fly.

Phil

 

[strutaeng]

My house also only had gas for the water heater and furnace, and I had 1" black iron pipe to a tee and then reduced to 3/4". Fortunately, I tapped into the tee and ran another 3/4" line for my new 5 burner gas range...

 

[Black_Z28]

Where are you located? I see snow, so you must be where it's cold

Post a close-up of the meter specifications. They have a Cubic Foot/Hour (CFH) rating. There's online calculators where you input the number and types of appliances and they give you a CFH requirement. There's also tables on sizing piping based on CFH and runs.

Everything does look small to me. Around here I believe copper is not used, but I know it is still widely used in other places.

In the event that your meter does not have enough capacity you can talk to your gas supplier and they may be able to put a larger one.

Oh yeah, there's some snow here. But not nearly enough...would love to see a few feet so I can fire out the sleds.

I can zoom in on my picture, and I see 250 CF/H.

Also, the regulator reads, 325-3LX, which I believe is the model number. Then Po 7'-11' 5 PSIG Class I

Appears they have run high pressure gas into the house using that copper and then regulated it down in the house to inches water column and that feeds your current appliances.

Without a lot more information (tube sizes, lengths and pressures) no one can determine your current capacity, much less how much headroom (if any) you might have to add more load.

Since you are dealing with high pressure (based on the secondary regulator in the house)...I'd have to caution you to go ahead and have an HVAC person plumb your new appliances for you. You may have to go all the way back to the meter with your plumbing....if you do, you'll have to regulate that line as well. The whole setup looks pretty hinky to me to begin with. Around here, the copper wouldn't fly.

UNLESS by "gas" you mean "LPG or Propane"...in which case it would fly.

Phil

My gas is NG.

I can't give too much detail right now, but I can say the copper pipe run from the meter to the regulator is only about 5'.

There is a T post regulator that I was planning to tap into for the gas range. But, when I do that I thought I should replace the copper line coming into the house with black pipe, it just doesn't seem right to me. And, you guys have proven my skepticism.

I guess my best bet is to contact a HVAC guy and have them run a new pipe? I assume the the gas company won't do anything since, they won't mess with much after the regulator.

 

[spudley]

I'm guessing your house was once serviced by propane and now is fed NG and someone hooked to the old copper lines. Also looks like galvanized from meter to copper, which is unusual. I'd go 3/4" black from meter to the first feed then use 1/2", or get an HVAC guy out.

 

[flat350]

In a lot of area's gas piping is plumbers work.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Oh yeah, there's some snow here. But not nearly enough...would love to see a few feet so I can fire out the sleds.

I can zoom in on my picture, and I see 250 CF/H.

Also, the regulator reads, 325-3LX, which I believe is the model number. Then Po 7'-11' 5 PSIG Class I



My gas is NG.

I can't give too much detail right now, but I can say the copper pipe run from the meter to the regulator is only about 5'.

There is a T post regulator that I was planning to tap into for the gas range. But, when I do that I thought I should replace the copper line coming into the house with black pipe, it just doesn't seem right to me. And, you guys have proven my skepticism.

I guess my best bet is to contact a HVAC guy and have them run a new pipe? I assume the the gas company won't do anything since, they won't mess with much after the regulator.

If you are going to have it replumbed...ask your guy if he would recommend switching over from a high pressure (likely 2 psi) setup to a standard inches-of-water column set up at the meter. The gas company would have to do that for you...but it would eliminate the need for that inside regulator.

I know code allows for PSI into a house....but unless there is some compelling need for it...I just don't like it. I've seen too many times where the only reason they ask for 2 psi is to cover up the fact they didn't run big enough gas lines. Assuming you live at or near sea level, you'd want 7 inches water column through the gas meter and then you can tee here-there-or-yonder and you don't need any more regulation upstream of your appliances.

I'm not sure HOW they are correcting your meter for elevated pressure either. Normally a 2 psi meter set (which I'm assuming you have), has a red pressure compensating index...but yours doesn't.

Hinky.

Phil

 

[Milton Shaw]

My propane tank has a 1/4 inch line from tank to first regulator on top of tank and then larger line to second regulator at generator. So small lines at high pressure will carry a lot of gas supply to regulator. Don't judge the system as not having a lot of capacity, ask the gas company and they can calculate the capacity.

 

[Jim greengo]

Appears they have run high pressure gas into the house using that copper and then regulated it down in the house to inches water column and that feeds your current appliances.

Without a lot more information (tube sizes, lengths and pressures) no one can determine your current capacity, much less how much headroom (if any) you might have to add more load.

Since you are dealing with high pressure (based on the secondary regulator in the house)...I'd have to caution you to go ahead and have an HVAC person plumb your new appliances for you. You may have to go all the way back to the meter with your plumbing....if you do, you'll have to regulate that line as well. The whole setup looks pretty hinky to me to begin with. Around here, the copper wouldn't fly.

UNLESS by "gas" you mean "LPG or Propane"...in which case it would fly.

Phil

 

[acmikee]

by looking at it I would say you have high pressure gas going under your house to the regulator then its reduced down to 5-7"
also the vent on the regulator should be piped outside of the house

 

[terabitdan]

According to the internet the regulator you have has a total load capacity of multiple appliances combined for this unit is 250,000 BTUs.

The total load capacity of a single appliance served by this regulator is 140,000 BTUs.

Your meter at 250 CF per hour can supply a little more than 250,000 BTU per hour

How big is your furnace? Tank water heaters are typically around 40,000 BTU.

Add the furnace, water heater, stove and gas logs BTU/hr ratings. If it’s less than 250,000 you’ll just need to tap into the pipe after the regulator.

It’s rare for every gas appliance to be using it’s rated capacity.

Higher pressure gas needs smaller pipe for the same flow.

If it were my house I’d be tempted to replace everything from the meter to the regulator with black pipe but that’s just cuz it looks funky.


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[66cj225]

Higher pressure gas needs smaller pipe for the same flow.

Uhh.. don't give up your day job.

 

[terabitdan]

https://www.nwnatural.com/uploadedFiles/pipe-sizing-chart-2016.pdf

A 20 foot length of 1/2” pipe with low pressure (after regulator) can supply 118 cubic feet per hour.

The same pipe at 2 psig (before regulator) can supply 1,070 cubic feet per hour.

Or to prove my exact statement, it would require a 1 1/4” pipe at low pressure to supply 957 CF/H, so smaller pipe is required for the same flow.

Higher pressure = higher flow rate.


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[dave*99]

If you are going to have it replumbed...ask your guy if he would recommend switching over from a high pressure (likely 2 psi) setup to a standard inches-of-water column set up at the meter. The gas company would have to do that for you...but it would eliminate the need for that inside regulator.

I know code allows for PSI into a house....but unless there is some compelling need for it...I just don't like it. I've seen too many times where the only reason they ask for 2 psi is to cover up the fact they didn't run big enough gas lines. Assuming you live at or near sea level, you'd want 7 inches water column through the gas meter and then you can tee here-there-or-yonder and you don't need any more regulation upstream of your appliances.

I'm not sure HOW they are correcting your meter for elevated pressure either. Normally a 2 psi meter set (which I'm assuming you have), has a red pressure compensating index...but yours doesn't.

Hinky.

Phil

This sounds like the right fix. You started with a water heater and a furnace - probably 80-100K Btu for furnace and 40K Btu for water heater.
Now you have a garage heater (40 or 50K?) Likely it has a regulator.

And you want to add a Stove and Fireplace....

I went through a similar process. The gas meter and pipe in the house was sized based on a calculation of all the appliances in the house. Gas company (NG) put in a larger meter at no charge. I told them the rating on all the appliances and they up-sized the meter accordingly. Also confirmed I had the correct regulator for the load.
YMMV

 

[Black_Z28]

I appreciate all the knowledge guys.

Good to know I'm good to add at least a stove to my house. Currently my furnace is 80K, and I believe you're right on the water heater, I believe it's 40K. Like I mentioned, there is a T in the line post regulator, so I'll most likely run a line to the new stove from that. The fireplace is kinda of just a want for visual stuff. Plus, with a kid on the way, I would love to have a fireplace for Santa....yeah, kinda of a goofy reason, but I always loved how my dad went all out Christmas Eve.

One of the main reasons I asked the question, was because my OCD kinda kicked in, and I just didn't like how it looked.

Again, thanks guys. Love this site...learn things on it everyday.

 

[66cj225]

https://www.nwnatural.com/uploadedFiles/pipe-sizing-chart-2016.pdf

Or to prove my exact statement, it would require a 1 1/4” pipe at low pressure to supply 957 CF/H, so smaller pipe is required for the same flow.

Higher pressure = higher flow rate.


Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

Ok, you've removed the second guessing about your thought process. A natural gas system is one way, source to consumer. You cannot send it back with solar panels.
Yes the end device determines the requirements for BTU input.
The Gas Co likes to maintain the standard 1000 BTU/ cubic foot and the combination of these two items determines the cubic feet.
Once you get upstream of the the regulator it doesn't matter one bit how much the hi pressure piping is oversized. In the summer it's like all oversized because there is no use; and it doesn't 'need to be smaller" because of the lack of flow; it is not metering.
I hope this makes sense.

 

[D45]

I also have a 250 CF per hour meter

I am using more than that with my appliances.....hot water heater, furnace, stove, fireplace, grill, and garage heater

No issues