Gas Line to Range

[ddurrett896]

Last year I converted my heat to natural gas and had soft copper ran from the meter to the attic where the furnace is. It was inspected by the city and everything was good to go. Been working perfect since!

I'm converting my range to gas and wondering if I can T off of that copper line to the range? The reason I ask is because as I do research, there are some people who say NO to copper+gas and other that say it's fine.

Again, the original line was inspected and leak tested no problem, but I don't want this to be a problem down the road. I plan on living in the house for the next 50+ years. Thanks!

 

[larry4406]

Copper and natural gas is fine. Question is whether the existing line size can accommodate the btu of the furnace and the new appliance; I can't answer that.

 

[rlitman]

Copper and natural gas is fine.

Depends on the AHJ. It is most certainly not fine around these parts.

 

[Architorture]

I see copper on propane all the time, but not natural gas.

 

[Hpozzuoli]

I see copper on bottle gas all the time, but they small diameter. Anything to do with NG is black pipe in these parts. I just T'd my main line and ran 3/4 to my range. For some odd reason my new house had an electric range although NG was in the house.

As long as there are well placed existing shut offs and unions already there it is super easy for you to tap in.

 

[Jagmandave]

In our area they only allow copper that's tinned on the inside......I have black pipe thruout the house, but when I wanted to hookup our new natural gas grill the folks that sold it to me also sold me the right copper pipe to use.

 

[terry603]

I have read that copper is fine now....used to be the gas was not filtered and this corroded copper pipes.....the gas has now being filtered before it reaches the home,so copper is OK now...however,some locals still do not a allow it

 

[volleyball]

The yellow coated SS is what people use. And you need to have capacity so maybe you need an entire new line.
If you have access, Black iron is a good way to go.

 

[Showkey]

Various brands........... Stainless pipe is getting more common........even the big box stores sell it

http://t.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-...ted-Stainless-Steel-Tubing-11-00775/203073945

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Y750U0/?tag=atomicindus08-20

http://www.tracpipe.com/CSST_Gas_Pipe_Products/CounterStrike_CSST/


Edit.....typing the same time as vollyball

 

[Stuart in MN]

Whether it's copper or not isn't the issue (it is allowed in some areas), it's whether he can tee off one line for another.

I don't know the answer, but I can say in my house there's a 'home run' for the furnace, stove and water heater back to the meter. It seems to make more sense to me.

 

[Engineer61]

Last time I replaced my hot water heater with a much more powerful unit, I read ALL of the instructions, including the part of how much gas it needed and how long the gas line could be at various sizes of pipe, then got out the furnace instructions and did the same - and ended up getting a guy in to replace most of the main run as originally it reduced from 1" black pipe to 3/4" black pipe right inside the wall, and then ran 40+ feet to the furnace and water heater. The 3/4" black pipe didn't have enough flow to properly supply the bigger hot water heater so it was replaced with 1" black pipe right to the utility room where it split into three short 1/2" sections to supply the furnace, hot water heater and I had him install a supply line for a gas dryer if I ever get one. 1/2" black pipe for 4 feet was fine for each individual appliance, but both together couldn't be supplied by the 40+ feet of 3/4" black pipe.

 

[allhenyia]

I see copper on propane all the time

 

[volleyball]

Think of the gas line like you would an air line from your compressor. Lots of ways to get enough gas to the destination without starving.

 

[rslaback]

One other thing that no one yet has mentioned is that your service when converted could've been installed as a high pressure/regulated system. In those cases (like mine) the piping for LP wouldn't support NG without being upsized. In that case the gas comes into the home at a higher than normal 2 psi. It is then regulated down right before the appliance.

If yours happens to be done like this you would also need a regulator (and someone to tune it) for your new outlet.

If this is the case with yours, it should be clearly marked.

 

[sberry]

Think of the gas line like you would an air line from your compressor. Lots of ways to get enough gas to the destination without starving.

There are quite a few differences between gas and air and mostly due to the pressures it operates at and some demand issues.

 

[Dagny]

If you are going to use the new stainless type pipe there are grounding issues with this pipe.

 

[sberry]

What do normal residential mains run at on natural?
As a side note, just because all this blends together. Piping in general I guess. We see a lot of confusion as to "why" a lot. We size air to 3/4 mains when most of the time it is pretty much or close to totally irrelevant especially with 2 stage use both up and down. 3/8 175 air in to a reg would supply 1/2 out at a lower working pressure just fine. With 1/2 in and 1/2 out there is almost no line loss in the primary, only minor in the 1/2 secondary and almost exclusively in the hose and some minor losses in connections.

 

[rslaback]

What do normal residential mains run at on natural?
As a side note, just because all this blends together. Piping in general I guess. We see a lot of confusion as to "why" a lot. We size air to 3/4 mains when most of the time it is pretty much or close to totally irrelevant especially with 2 stage use both up and down. 3/8 175 air in to a reg would supply 1/2 out at a lower working pressure just fine. With 1/2 in and 1/2 out there is almost no line loss in the primary, only minor in the 1/2 secondary and almost exclusively in the hose and some minor losses in connections.

I believe that at the appliance they should be around 7 inch WC which is around .25 psi. The service that we had when we lived in town came into the house already at that pressure so no further regulation was needed before the appliance.

I concur with your air piping thoughts. I've never really understood the idea of huge air mains unless you are planning to run multiple air tools at max CFM.

 

[volleyball]

There are quite a few differences between gas and air and mostly due to the pressures it operates at and some demand issues.

Do you mean running an impact gun?

My comment was meant that most seem to understand demand and having a supply that can meet that demand.

 

[kbs2244]

I just had a gas co guy to the house when a plumber installing a service out to the shop kinked the supply tube on the street side of the meter.
No leak smell but a pretty good kink.
He reset the meter after he straightened out the kink.
When asked, he said the street side of the meter runs between a 40 to 60 PSI.
House side is at 3 to 6 PSI.
This is at Nicor Gas in north east IL.

 

[sberry]

I figured there was some poop behind most of them, it never occurred to me to ask but you see some flame pushed out on the news when one of them gets hit, looks like more than a couple pounds.
After first stage on LP at about 10# a 3/8 is good for about 200Kbtu at 66 ft. Right around 200 gallons of vapor, I forget most of it, how many btu a gallon of liquid,, 130K, maybe less?

 

[sberry]

Do you mean running an impact gun?

My comment was meant that most seem to understand demand and having a supply that can meet that demand.

I was just referring in general to the difference in staging and pipe sizing. We go from 3/8 to 3/4 for gas, huge differential.

 

[sberry]

I was talking to a smart builder type yesterday worried about the restrictive nature of pex fittings, its really hard for most people to grasp the object is to meet demand and not to dump as much as possible and that an elbow has very little effect on hand washing and less all the time with more water saving features and low flow fixtures.
Today we can put 4 stools on the same line without scalding the shower, can now use 3/8 instead of 1/2 line to feed a toilet. The demand has not risen its lowered for each device. They are actually seeking problems on older pipe with 4 inch sewers, 3 inch drains clear so much faster with low flow.

 

[rslaback]

I just had a gas co guy to the house when a plumber installing a service out to the shop kinked the supply tube on the street side of the meter.
No leak smell but a pretty good kink.
He reset the meter after he straightened out the kink.
When asked, he said the street side of the meter runs between a 40 to 60 PSI.
House side is at 3 to 6 PSI.
This is at Nicor Gas in north east IL.

Is it possible this is .3 to .6? The reason I ask is that the resources I have found state they are significantly less and your numbers can't work for my system which has a house side line pressure (marked right on it) as 2PSI and has a downstream regulator to decrease the pressure.

 

[volleyball]

Maybe with home runs you can do smaller pipe because it is only feeding 1 fixture. But can even a large scale project save by switching to different size rolls of tubing instead of just running 1/2"? Probably not.
And with remodeling, skimping with the build can seriously impact the project. Even builder changes where a buyer wants a huge shower or a fireplace in the master suite.

 

[rlitman]

Is it possible this is .3 to .6?

It better be. More like .25 to .5 btw.

 

[sberry]

Do you mean running an impact gun?

My comment was meant that most seem to understand demand and having a supply that can meet that demand.

From what I see here most don't really understand it. They really understand fear. I am guilty here too so this is not a finger point its general observation after watching these threads for a decade.
Most of it follows the bigger is better thinking and its kind of half right and may apply if one isdumping in to a tank or placing hi service demands for irrigation etc but when we get a question and Joe jumps on with,,, I ran 3/4 to all my kitchen sink so I don't have to worry about pressure drop I know Joe really doesn't have much grasp of plumbing beyond turning it on.
We worry about volume but pressure is the other half of the team. Wells with varying pressure have more issues and volume can be 1/2 or 2x thru the same pipe a minute later. Some city water is pretty sturdy, will well serve house thru 3/4 wide open at 60 psi coming in, would be weak at 30.
Proper sized like helps reduce system pressure drop hence the shower scald effect, sized right and no one notices when someone flushes or opens multiple hydrants.
There are other issues beside simple pressure drop but that's a reoccurring theme that is really a minor problem that tends to over shadow real issues that may be more relevant. Do you really need to deliver 20GPM at a hand wash sink or toilet? Often these concerns come from places with a well that delivers 10 or from a 5 hp air comp making 15, we think we need a pipe that will handle 60 so we don't suffer drop and then in the end push it thru a tiny hose that will run most compressors out of air in a hurry.

 

[sberry]

Doesn't matter how big the shower is, only the shower head. As for builder change, is this to a luxury home of common hose with relatively fixed design and how far does it make sense to future proof and at what cost? Is it worth an extra long wait and heat loss for simple hand wash in case Joe someday wants to put a spa on the other end, one he doesn't factor in at the time of the build,,, just in case he is going to host the Swedish bikini team in his retirement years?