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Gas or Electric Heat?

benchracer

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Feb 15, 2011
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Chicagoland
Hi, I'm new to the forum, but am already addicted. I'm planning my new garage build and am looking for heating options. The garage will be 24 x 24 with a 2nd floor loft. I was initially looking at overhead forced gas heaters but my contractor is suggesting electric. The main heater will be mounted on the lower level.
I picture electric being more expensive to run though. Any info or suggestions?
 
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theoldwizard1

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SE MI
Electric heat is usually the MOST expensive to operate. Easy to install. Fine if you don't plan on using it much (which is why they use it for heating in FL !)
 

fastbuick

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Feb 24, 2010
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Cornfields of Indiana
On a new build I'd do a heated floor, natural gas fired if available.

In the loft, either gas or electric forced air could be used as needed.
 
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jvitez

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Big Sky Country, Canada
It all comes down to numbers. How much does electricity cost your per kWh? How much does NG cost you? There are 3.413 btu per watt, so calculate back, but you'll need to calculate NG at 80% efficiency with a regular NG forced air unit heater, but electricity is 100% efficient.

For eg, our POCO calculated that electric heat is 2.2 times more expensive than an 80% efficient NG furnace, using 6.62 cents per kWh for electricity and 24.92 cents per cubic metre of NG.

Get your costs from your POCO and you can have exact numbers.
 

dave67fd

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Southern NH
NG will usually always out win Electric. Propane and electric have allways been a debate and as said will depend on costs in your area.

Electric heat is usually cheaper for "heater" purchase/install but will depend on what elec. service you have available (230V high current). It will take large or several wattage heaters to throw the BTU's a gas heater will produce.

Gas heaters typically have a higher "install" cost for installing the gas piping and venting.

Stay away from vent free propane heaters unless you like alot of moisture in your garage and or have little fresh air available.

Biggest key to properly heating/cooling any space is how well you insulate. This should be your initial primary concern if you haven't yet done so.

Depending on your opening to the second floor, don't assume the first floor heat will adequately heat it.
 
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Friartuck

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Monmouth County, NJ
Benchracer,

You've come to the right place. Benefit from all of the GJ users before you construct.

Simple answer is use natural gas if available. Assuming your in Chicago, the electric rates are about $0.12-$0.14 per Kilowatt hour. Your 24X24 building will need about 45K BTU to heat just the lower portion. Assuming you insulate perfectly, you would need at least 6KW of Electric to heat. $0.14/KW hrX6KW=$0.90 or almost a $1.00 per hour to run. At 8 hours per day over a month is over $200 per month.

Gas calc's 1 cubic foot of gas is 1000 BTU of heat. I used 1700 cubic feet to heat my whole house for a month and it ran $27. Safe to say that currently gas is cheapest and electric is most expensive. It is proabably true that electric will be cheapest to install from equipment and labor stand point.

Trade offs:

1. Electric: most expensive to run, heats shop quicker, least expensive equipment ($500-$600)
2. Forced air, low-moderate expense to run, takes a little longer to heat shop (come up to temp), equipment not that expensive ($800-$1000) includes gas line)
3. Concrete floor radiant low-moderate to run, takes longest to heat shop if coming from a cold start, equipment is most expensive ($2,000-includes heater, pump, manifolds, and 4 rolls of 1/2 inch pex and foam board insulation), and is most comfortable heat. It can be argued that if you keep it up to temp, it might in fact be the lowest.

The hanging forced air unit like a Hot Dawg will do well, but since you're starting from scratch, consider the concrete floor radiant heating solution. The effect and comfort are like no other.

The single most important item to do regardless of which method you choose is insulate well! Not just the walls/ceiling but under the concrete floor and inside perimeter of the foundation. Owens Corning Foamular #250 should be used the (25 PSI rated 2 inch thick Foam inslulation), not #150 (the 15 PSI version) normally offered at Lowes/Home Depot/Menards/Etc. IMHO, the weight of the concrete and/or loads will crush the Foamular 150 (15 PSI) Foam boards into something useless.
Owens Corning page: http://commercial.owenscorning.com/products/foam/foamular-250/

And don't be fooled by the air bubble silver rolls. There are many documented cases of fraud with that type of insulation.

If you go with the concrete floor radiant; My suggested solution:
TAKAGI- Jr tankless water heater, circulator pump, four loop PEX manifolds. The Jr model has four heat settings and lowest setting should produce the right amount of BTU's to keep the cycle water solution at 90-100 degrees. use the right oxygen barriar rated PEX tubing rated for Radiant heat applications. 1/2 inch PEX will permit up to 300 foot long loops. Loops should not vary be more than 10 percent differance in length. (300 to 270 feet),loop layout should minimize the number of times you cross and expansion joint, mount heat hardware where nothing will block it and the pex wil enter/exit easily. Suggested source: www.PEXsupply.com
 
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HoosierBuddy

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May 9, 2006
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Southern Indiana
I think you've learned a valuable lesson.

Your contractor wants to do things so they are easy for him, not so it will be good for you.

I had a very good contractor build my garage, but I ran into this a lot of times. My vision for the garage was hard to do. My contractor knew a lot about building, but in some cases wasn't up on the latest technology (might have been because he was Amish?)

Sometimes his ideas won out. Sometimes mine won out. You've got to be willing to get in there and make sure he does the things that are going to make you love the finished project, because any mistakes you make will have to either be "lived with" or fixed at a later date for a lot more money.

IMHO...using electric resistance heat would be a mistake. Natural gas if it's available. If not...weigh the costs of propane or consider using a heat pump (especially if you are in a moderate temperature area).

Phil
 

BD1

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Mar 18, 2007
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north side
Like all said, electric is $$$$. Do you have a large enough service ? how close is panel ? How long will electric wire runs be ? Wire is costly too.
What size is gas service ? Is there gas near by ? Once heating season starts are you gonna leave heat on ? Or just turn on when needed ?
Radiant good if leaving on, blower type gas HOT DAWG great for heat when needed now, doors opening and closing .
Is the loft going to be closed in ? Separate heat required ? Open ?
If open I would go with gas HOT DAWG and use the rest of money for other goodies.
 

Highbeam

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Mt Rainier foothills, WA
You must use the 250 PSI rated 2 inch thick Foam inslulation, not the 150 PSI normally offered at Lowes/Home Depot/Menards/Etc. The weight of the concrete will crush the 150 PSI Foam boards into something useless.

You were doing so well. This is false. There is 25 psi foam and 15 psi foam, not 250 and 150. I used 25 psi white EPS foam from a supplier but even 15 psi foam will not be the weak link if the soil beneath it is regular 2000 psf bearing strength which comes out to 14 psi. I do agree to seek out the 25 psi stuff two inches thick.

More importantly, the concrete will not crush it. A full 6" thick layer of concrete only weighs 0.5 psi. It's not the concrete, it is the load of whatever you store or park on top of the slab. Okay, I'll do the math for you: Regular concrete weighs about 150 pounds per cubic foot, 6" thick is 75 lbs per square foot, 144 square inches in a square foot for 0.52 psi from the concrete.
 

Highbeam

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Mt Rainier foothills, WA
NG will usually always out win Electric. Propane and electric have allways been a debate and as said will depend on costs in your area.

Electric heat is usually cheaper for "heater" purchase/install but will depend on what elec. service you have available (230V high current). It will take large or several wattage heaters to throw the BTU's a gas heater will produce.

Gas heaters typically have a higher "install" cost for installing the gas piping and venting.

Stay away from vent free propane heaters unless you like alot of moisture in your garage and or have little fresh air available.

Biggest key to properly heating/cooling any space is how well you insulate. This should be your initial primary concern if you haven't yet done so.

Depending on your opening to the second floor, don't assume the first floor heat will adequately heat it.

Good post. When the OP says gas is that propane or natural gas? In my area electric resistance heat is actually cheaper per btu than propane but of course NG is way cheaper than both and I expect it to stay that way. The mini split heat pumps allow you to improve the efficiency of electric by up to 300% so electric from a heat pumpwould be much cheaper than propane.
 
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benchracer

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Chicagoland
Great info guys! I'm probably going to go with natural gas with possibly a dual unit a/c heating unit on the 2nd level. I don't have the cash to run a radiant floor set-up.
Next stupid question: Is it worthwhile to insulate your concrete slab if your not heating the floor?
Good observation Phil! I think you're right that the contractor is going to suggest anything that's easier for him.
 

Falcon67

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Jun 11, 2009
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Merkel, TX
If the choice is NG or electric, NG. If the gas is propane - based on pricing here, I'd go electric because they are that close per therm. We are all electric and were going to place a 250 gallon propane tank and run lines into the house for water, heat and stove. After figuring costs, I gave up as there was no payback. No NG in this subdivision.
 

Highbeam

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If the choice is NG or electric, NG. If the gas is propane - based on pricing here, I'd go electric because they are that close per therm. We are all electric and were going to place a 250 gallon propane tank and run lines into the house for water, heat and stove. After figuring costs, I gave up as there was no payback. No NG in this subdivision.

I'm with you Falcon. It seems to go against the common sense but if you do the math, electric can be the way to go.
 

BadgerBoilerMN

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Minneapolis
Insulate the floor and if you must have AC, buy an air-to-air mini-split heat pump for all. There are no furnaces small enough to properly heat the space you describe.

I apologize to my radiant floor heating fans... I know, he'll be sorry later.
 

Just_Brits

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May 7, 2012
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Hinsdale, IL
Hi, I'm new to the forum, but am already addicted. I'm planning my new garage build and am looking for heating options. The garage will be 24 x 24 with a 2nd floor loft. I was initially looking at overhead forced gas heaters but my contractor is suggesting electric. The main heater will be mounted on the lower level.
I picture electric being more expensive to run though. Any info or suggestions?

Hi "Benchracer" !

I am also new to this forum BUT I live in the Chi Area :lol_hitti !

LOTS of VERY GOOD suggestions but I know your problems :evil: !

You need Exterior Fresh Air supplied <sigh> Gas Furnace w/air.
And without ANY doubt I fully & strongly suggest doing in floor --- I
WISH I had it but my shop building was already done when we bought
our house/garage/<HUGE sigh> with inground pool ! ! ! :shocking: :eek:

Be SURE to use a Programable Thermostat ! ! ! MANDATORY if you don't want a HUGE bill :evil: :shocking: :lol:

Also (and NOBODY has mentioned :D ) if Zoning will allow, put SEWER :Toilet: and WATER lines in ! ! ! Be VERY SURE to check Zoning ! ! ! ! ! !

I have some pics of my (messy :dunno: ) shop I can send you if you write me DIRECT at my eMail Addy in Profile.

:3gears:
Ed
 
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benchracer

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Chicagoland
Sewer and water are out. I'm not even gonna check cause it's not in the budget. The work involved would be huge. The garage location is too far from the house to tap into a sewer line. The village probably wouldn't allow it anyway.

I would still love to do in-floor heat, but the village may not allow it and that may not be in the budget either. I plan on insulating the garage thoroughly, so the next option is a gas heater. I've been using portable kerosene heaters for years, so an overhead gas burner would be great.
 

Kevin54

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Jan 12, 2005
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Urbana, Ohio
Hi, I'm new to the forum, but am already addicted. I'm planning my new garage build and am looking for heating options. The garage will be 24 x 24 with a 2nd floor loft. I was initially looking at overhead forced gas heaters but my contractor is suggesting electric. The main heater will be mounted on the lower level.
I picture electric being more expensive to run though. Any info or suggestions?

Sewer and water are out. I'm not even gonna check cause it's not in the budget. The work involved would be huge. The garage location is too far from the house to tap into a sewer line. The village probably wouldn't allow it anyway.

I would still love to do in-floor heat, but the village may not allow it and that may not be in the budget either. I plan on insulating the garage thoroughly, so the next option is a gas heater. I've been using portable kerosene heaters for years, so an overhead gas burner would be great.

Above everything......INSULATE. The better the insulation the cheaper it is to heat. Spend a little more money upfront to save money in the long run. Build your walls out of 2" x 6" studs and NOT 2" x 4"'s. This will allow for R19 in the walls. The floor is a toss up. If you don't have a heated floor, the cost of using insulation before the pour will be a minimal payback. But you do want to put a waterproof membrane down as in visqueen vapor barrier.

My wife has a 20' x 20' building. No insulation in the floor, 2x6 walls and R30 in the ceiling. She uses two of the oil filled radiators in the winter and at zero out, she can keep it 70f in there with both on the low setting.

If you have natural gas that you can hook to, go that route over LP (propane) NG has more BTU's than LP gas.

Also make sure you put a vapor barrier on your walls of the garage. Chicago gets some fairly good winds in the winter. You will need it. If you put in windows, make sure they are a good insulated window. Same with the man-door. Also look into a good insulated garage door. The paybacks will be fairly quick with the price of fuel.

One other thing, when you build, or when you start the foundation, PLAN AHEAD. Someday you may want to put water into the garage. If you think that you ever will, then make an appropriate place in the foundation to run a future water line without having to bust something up later. You can run a piece of PVC through the footer or underneath the footer coming up inside a small pit inside. A few years down the road, it will be a timesaver that you don't have to bust something up. It doesn't cost much more than a couple of dollars to do it ahead of time. And when you run your electric to the garage, make sure you run cable and telephone while you are at it.
 
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ddawg16

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S. California
Heat pump if you don't want to go gas....

If your also considering AC, a combined system could be cheaper.

A good heat pump will be more effecient than resistive down to around 10 deg....after that, it starts to loose out....
 

Highbeam

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Mt Rainier foothills, WA
A good heat pump will be more effecient than resistive down to around 10 deg....after that, it starts to loose out....

True. Often 3 times more efficient and even down to zero. The problem is cost of installation. The resistance heater is cheap to put in, repair, move, modify, etc.

If only they had a reasonably cheap heat pump boiler. That market is way behind.
 
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