Gas pipe issue

[roguegts]

Hey guys, well in the midst of a remodel on a rental apartment and discovered a semi-serious issue. Pulled up the subfloor on the 2nd story and found a 1" black steel gas pipe. Problem is, it looks like at some point in the past it was "grooved" on the top side by a circular saw. Cut looks to be about 1/16" deep, but I haven't thrown a caliper on it yet.

No clue how long it's been this way, but I have to assume at least 15 years.

So what is the best way to repair this? It's reasonably close to the end of the run on the meter side, but will obviously require disassembling the entire installation up to that point.

Any super secret repair options i'm not aware of? I have the ability to cut the pipe and thread it if needed. I know unions between the valve and meter are against code (and I don't like it know it's between floors in a trapped space).

Anyone used a left/right ****** and fittings? Seems like it could be tricky to get it engaged and tight without taking some time to clock the fittings on both end so you have perfect engagement.


Thoughts, condolences, well wishes, i'll take any advice here.

 

[MrSurly]

I don’t know the answer, but I do know that like you, I couldn’t make myself leave it, once I saw it. There’s no way I could bury a union there, either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[bigdav160]

I've used left/right unions with no problems. Home NG is a low pressure system. If it's not leaking now I think I would leave it alone.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Hmm...this is a toughie.

S40 steel 1" would normally have .133 wall. You're guessing a 1/16th cut which would be .0625" leaving .0705 or a little more than half the standard wall thickness.

Then again...your Mark 1 eyeball may not be all that accurate.

On the other hand, it isn't leaking and at low pressure (0.25 psi more or less) is not likely to start leaking.

I'm going to say, either fix it right by shutting off the gas, disassembling all of the piping you have to in order to remove the damaged section of pipe, clean all the pipe dope completely off of all NPT fittings to be use, replace damaged section of pipe. Use good pipe sealant. Carefully check for leaks when complete.

Or...measure to verify it is 50% of the pipewall or less and if you still have at least 50% pipewall and it isn't leaking...let it go.

The one thing I wouldn't do is half-*** a repair. Fix it right or don't start.

I warrant none of the above advice. Make sure you know what you're doing here.

Phil

 

[BillK]

I hate to say it because I am a total DIY type but in a rental apartment I would probably call a licensed plumber and pay the price to make sure it is fixed and documented properly. Cheap insurance.

 

[rburke65]

I’d have to vote with BillK. I was at a time a landlord and I am a DIY guy, but I’d cover my cheeks and call a pro.

 

[Vicious_Cycle]

I reluctantly agree! A pro might have a trick or two up his sleeve and might even save you a few bucks. I don't think you want the potential liability of a DIY job here.

 

[aslack99]

Your service pipe typically operates around 6 ounces, so it's probably nothing to worry about, but in case you are here's a link to something we use on 50psig systems.

https://www.grainger.com/category/p...l|Stainless+Steel~~Pipe+Size|1"&filters=attrs

 

[Jim greengo]

Pictures?

 

[Vicious_Cycle]

Your service pipe typically operates around 6 ounces, so it's probably nothing to worry about, but in case you are here's a link to something we use on 50psig systems.

https://www.grainger.com/category/p...l|Stainless+Steel~~Pipe+Size|1"&filters=attrs

My first thought was a fix of this nature, although I didn't know these particular devices even exist! Great tip, seems like a perfect fix for some peace of mind.

 

[jdepiero]

NG is not something to take a chance with. I recommend a plumber fix this correctly. Then you are sleeping well.

 

[Jim greengo]

My first thought was a fix of this nature, although I didn't know these particular devices even exist! Great tip, seems like a perfect fix for some peace of mind.

Those are for temp plumbing repairs

 

[rharman]

Call a plumber and keep the receipt for taxes. And, sleep better at night.

 

[roguegts]

Thanks guys, I'll get some pics next time i'm over there and throw a caliper on it to measure the cut.

I decided to have a plumber take a look at it just for kicks and see if they have any alternate solutions to disassembling the system and replacing that section of pipe. But my gut feeling from the start is that's the only reasonable and sound way to fix this. I'd rather get it over with while I have the whole floor pulled up and not have to worry about it.

Thanks for the feedback. I'd love to have five minutes alone with the guy who did this, threw some plywood down and moved on.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Thanks guys, I'll get some pics next time i'm over there and throw a caliper on it to measure the cut.

I decided to have a plumber take a look at it just for kicks and see if they have any alternate solutions to disassembling the system and replacing that section of pipe. But my gut feeling from the start is that's the only reasonable and sound way to fix this. I'd rather get it over with while I have the whole floor pulled up and not have to worry about it.

Thanks for the feedback. I'd love to have five minutes alone with the guy who did this, threw some plywood down and moved on.

He's lucky he didn't go through it, if it was live at the time.

I did get a call awhile back for a gas leak where an old lady and her mother had decided to cut off a pipe and valve sticking out of their patio flush with the concrete so they wouldn't have to look at it any longer. It was a vacant gas service riser with 40 PSI on it.

Business picked right up when the sawzall got about 1/3 of the way through the pipe.

Luckily God watches over fools and children...or in this case a fool and her child, I guess. No fire. Gas company shut it down and took the riser out for them.

If you see a gas line with a valve still on top of it....99% of the time it's live. Words to live by.

 

[gungatim]

who

 

[KenC]

In my house, I would cut a section out in a location that would allow access with pipe threading tools. then thread the cut ends and replace the section with a piece of CSST and associated fittings. Carefully leak check and it will be permanent, code compliant repair forever. The CSST and fittings are available at both HD and Lowes, at least locally.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

the section with a piece of CSST and associated fittings. Carefully leak check and it will be permanent, code compliant repair forever.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here...but NO this is not code compliant unless the installer is properly trained in the use of CSST, the training is documented, and all the manufacture's requirements are adhered to including bonding requirements...which in the OP's situation would normally require an approved bonding conducter be installed back to the building's main electrical ground.

Phil

 

[roguegts]

I've run into that on one of the rentals I owned. it was an older home. not sure if it fits your situation or not, but you may want to check if it is even live. many older homes had gas piping through the ceiling/floors for lighting before conversion to electric. may be nothing to even have to bother with if it's an older home converted to apartments and the pipe has been capped off from the main. worth checking maybe.

100% it's live. The building is sub metered and I can see the meter run when I use things on this dedicated line.

In my house, I would cut a section out in a location that would allow access with pipe threading tools. then thread the cut ends and replace the section with a piece of CSST and associated fittings. Carefully leak check and it will be permanent, code compliant repair forever. The CSST and fittings are available at both HD and Lowes, at least locally.

Thanks for the idea, but I'm not comfortable with using/installing CSST to bury it in a floor like this, even if the plumber suggested it and was certified to install it. Having a plumber coming to give his opinion Saturday morning so i'll report back.

 

[Jim greengo]

In my house, I would cut a section out in a location that would allow access with pipe threading tools. then thread the cut ends and replace the section with a piece of CSST and associated fittings. Carefully leak check and it will be permanent, code compliant repair forever. The CSST and fittings are available at both HD and Lowes, at least locally.

There's a few reasons I wouldn't suggest doing this,the main 1 being that you're trusting fittings that rely on little more than a rubber o ring to seal them.
On top of that youre burying the fittings under floor where it's very hard to detect a leak till after it fills the floor/ceiling area with gas.

 

[75gmck25]

I watched a "This Old House" episode where they used compression/crimp fittings and a special tool to join iron pipe. They just cut each pipe off square, slipped on the fitting, and then used the tool to compress/crimp the fitting so that there was a leak-free joint between the two pipes. It was similar to what you might do with PEX fittings and a crimp tool, but was designed for black iron pipe. If you can shut off the NG, you could cut out a section of iron pipe and just splice in a new section with this type of fitting.

Bruce

 

[KenC]

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here...but NO this is not code compliant unless the installer is properly trained in the use of CSST, the training is documented, and all the manufacture's requirements are adhered to including bonding requirements...which in the OP's situation would normally require an approved bonding conducter be installed back to the building's main electrical ground.

Phil

Training is available at the point of purchase. Takes a few minutes to go through it online or from the manufacturers literature. Bonding can be to the original gas piping. I should have mentioned that. Reference:http://www.csstsafety.com/Images/CSST-Direct-Bonding-Tech-Bulletin.pdf

 

[KenC]

There's a few reasons I wouldn't suggest doing this,the main 1 being that you're trusting fittings that rely on little more than a rubber o ring to seal them.
On top of that youre burying the fittings under floor where it's very hard to detect a leak till after it fills the floor/ceiling area with gas.

The brand of fitting I use is all brass. not gasketing. Gastite brand.

I hear you on burying it, but IMO, it's no worse than a common union or ground joint.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

If you want a new tool and don't mind spending some pretty serious dough, you could cut the bad section out, and use a Megapress to pipe in a new section of black pipe...

Tommy

 

[metlmunchr]

If you want a new tool and don't mind spending some pretty serious dough, you could cut the bad section out, and use a Megapress to pipe in a new section of black pipe...

That's a slick setup, and it'd pay for itself in short order for anyone doing service work on hot or chilled water or steam. About $3200 to cover 1/2 thru 2" pipe versus $6000+ for a Ridgid 300 plus a pony threader and die set to cover the same size range. Not to mention all the fun of dragging the 300 out of the truck and setting it up for a thread or two. Or. like myself, manage to dump the oil bucket at least once every couple months

Yeah, the fittings aren't cheap, but a repair on screwed pipe in a bad place can easily cost several hundred bucks in labor to replace 20 bucks worth of pipe and fittings.

 

[Northislander]

That's a slick setup, and it'd pay for itself in short order for anyone doing service work on hot or chilled water or steam. About $3200 to cover 1/2 thru 2" pipe versus $6000+ for a Ridgid 300 plus a pony threader and die set to cover the same size range. Not to mention all the fun of dragging the 300 out of the truck and setting it up for a thread or two. Or. like myself, manage to dump the oil bucket at least once every couple months

Yeah, the fittings aren't cheap, but a repair on screwed pipe in a bad place can easily cost several hundred bucks in labor to replace 20 bucks worth of pipe and fittings.

I have the Pro Press and Mega Press and that would be my recommendation is find someone in your area with the mega press. It should be a quick repair

 

[Jim greengo]

The brand of fitting I use is all brass. not gasketing. Gastite brand.

I hear you on burying it, but IMO, it's no worse than a common union or ground joint.

Do you have a picture of the fittings?

 

[KenC]

Do you have a picture of the fittings?

Here's one:
https://www.cpesupply.com/2321146/P...MI94TQ6t6-4AIVC9VkCh0bOA8sEAQYBCABEgLpPvD_BwE

 

[Jim greengo]

 

[roguegts]

Sorry for the delay, been a crazy week. Got out there and verified with a caliper the cut is 0.082" deep. Plumber looked at it and he said just because of the location he would change it and not have to worry about it. Pretty much what I assumed. Just working out the scheduling now.

That's a slick setup, and it'd pay for itself in short order for anyone doing service work on hot or chilled water or steam. About $3200 to cover 1/2 thru 2" pipe versus $6000+ for a Ridgid 300 plus a pony threader and die set to cover the same size range. Not to mention all the fun of dragging the 300 out of the truck and setting it up for a thread or two. Or. like myself, manage to dump the oil bucket at least once every couple months

Yeah, the fittings aren't cheap, but a repair on screwed pipe in a bad place can easily cost several hundred bucks in labor to replace 20 bucks worth of pipe and fittings.

Damn thats bad ***, I've never see one before. I'll definitely see if I can find someone locally that has one.

 

[roguegts]

Well i owe you guys a round. Found a local guy with a megapress. Cut the pipe with a portable bandsaw, and unscrewed the nearest fitting. Screwed in a new section of pipe to the threaded coupler and crimped the other end with the megapress. Whole thing didnt take 30 minutes. $150 later and we're back in business!

 

[Jim greengo]

 

[rharman]

Great news. So, how does he get the coupling in there? You've got two ends a fixed distance apart, right? The coupling doesn't look like it would slide back far enough to slip into the open space.

 

[roguegts]

Great news. So, how does he get the coupling in there? You've got two ends a fixed distance apart, right? The coupling doesn't look like it would slide back far enough to slip into the open space.

That coupling didn't have a center block, so you could conpletely slide it onto one pipe, then move it back when they were lined up. Like a copper pipe coupler without the dimple.

One end of the run made a 90 and wasnt straped super tight so we could have moved it a couple inches if needed, but we obviously didnt know that until we cut the pipe.

If you look at the one we installed it's a constant thickness in the center. The one in the photo below has the center stop so you cant slide it all the way on.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Loves me some Pro Press and Mega Press tools!

Tommy

 

[oledude1952]

Many years ago I recall back when I was working maintenance in a hospital, we had a 2" copper domestic water supply line starting to leak at a TEE.

Just knowing the lines old shut off gate valve would never hold back the water in order for the repair to soldered, I dreaded the thought of getting the repair done by a pro.

Because the plumber would have to "freeze" the leaking fitting to make the repair, which was time consuming and awkward to get the freezing tool, in to tight working spaces. Meaning more down time for the hospital staff needing the water back on= me getting more flack. .

But when the plumber walked in to do the repair, instead of the freezing tools, he had his new, "Pro Press " tools with him.

Wow, I was happy and relieved that finally, someone came up with something to make repairs on piping in place.