Gas Pipe Size? and Hello

[Nickolas40]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here on GJ. I've enjoyed reading some of your posts and checking out some garage pics, some pretty cool shops on here, and some even inspiring.

I am currently setting up a 45,000 BTU Mr. Heater in my garage and I have a question about pipe size. The service at the shop is a one inch steel pipe coming from the meter, it's 30 feet long. I need to run about 40 feet of steel pipe in the shop to the heater. I believe the gas inlet in the heater is 5/8". My question is Can I get away with running a 5/8" reducer from the end of the 1 inch line up to the heater. There would be around 40 feet of 5/8" and 30 feet of 1".

Also I have a non-programmable t-stat 24volt White Rodgers 1E78 model. Would this stat work with the Big Maxx?

Thanks

 

[Zeke]

You are better off not reducing the size of the pipe while lengthening it. In fact, the reverse is the proper method. But 1" is a good size. There are charts on size, length and BTU's. Welcome to the forums.

 

[BigJ5]

What is your system pressure at? 7" WC?

When you say gas do you mean Natural Gas or Propane?

 

[Nickolas40]

I found this from the gas supplier's website. Note: Union Gas delivery pressure is minimum 7” WC so use the appropriate chart 7” to 14” with a 1” WC pressure drop for low pressure systems. And it is natural gas, forgot to mention that.

 

[BigJ5]

Oh, you are likely in Ontario if UG is your supplier. Manifold pressure is usually around 7-8" wc.

The cheapest way is to run 3/4" black iron, or run 1" Gastite. Plus the gas valve is 1/2" NPT not 5/8" unless it is something exceptionally oddball.

Where are you located?

 

[Nickolas40]

Yes, South Western Ontario, around London.

So 3/4 steel will do it then? Is there a spec sheet online somewhere?

Thanks for the info! Are you also located in Ontario?

Also wondering about the thermostat I mentioned.

 

[mygarageone]

Believe it or note , you can get by with 1/2" but I would run at least 3/4" and then just before you tie into you dirt leg reduce down to 1/2"

 

[BigJ5]

Yes, located in Hamilton.

The stat should work. Use terminals R and W on the stat.

If you cannot get it to work, I know the boys at Salmon Plumbing and Heating. I don't know their rates but I know they are honest guys.

 

[MrMark]

1/2 inch pipe is even overkill for that at those distances. Look it up in the gas sizing tables and you will see.

 

[BigJ5]

1/2 inch pipe is even overkill for that at those distances. Look it up in the gas sizing tables and you will see.

We have strict gas code in Ontario through the TSSA, we even sell our code to where you live in California because most of the states have too many Cowboys...

Use the LMR method (code requirement, that is how you use the table properly) and you'll see what I'm talking about.

 

[Nickolas40]

Is there a link for the tables somewhere?

 

[BigJ5]

In the B149 Gas Code book. The tables are adjusted every couple of years when they release a new book. You will be very hard pressed to find a copy of then new book online.

Run 3/4" black or 1" gastite.

LMR method requires you to size the pipe from the meter to the appliance. So, 45,000 BTU over ~80 ft, run 3/4" Iron.

This is part of the old codebook, with the tables conveniently missing.

http://www.csagroup.org/documents/codes-and-standards/supplements/B149_1S1_EN.pdf

Some table I found, my codebook is at work. Even this thing agrees with me, even though I am not sure it is correct.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=...F9jw74CrXOsPr7ZYMVQdlsA&bvm=bv.59568121,d.b2I

 

[MrMark]

http://www.cityofpleasantonca.gov/pdf/bldg-gaspipe.pdf

At 70 feet, 1/2 inch schedule 40 black steel supports up to 60K BTU.

Your demand is 45K. 1/2 inch is the correct size.

 

[rodm1]

The tables start on pg45 they should be all you need. Any home center that sells CSST has them in there install manual only cost about $2.

http://www.proflexcsst.com/html/English/docs/ProFlex CSST Installation Guide.pdf

 

[big.jim]

would run at larger size , restriction depends on how many bends in the length which leads to pressure drop, bigger is better

 

[dave67fd]

Although 1/2" maybe adequate, stick with 3/4". You never know, you might want to add another device/s (depending on BTU usage) in the future or at least a future owner might. Cost is little to upsize.

 

[BigJ5]

The tables start on pg45 they should be all you need. Any home center that sells CSST has them in there install manual only cost about $2.

http://www.proflexcsst.com/html/English/docs/ProFlex CSST Installation Guide.pdf

Not a bad guide, it provides an idea on how to correctly size. But incorrect for Ontario. This table is for less than 2 psi. we run 7" wc and typically size for 1" pressure drop. That is why the capacity is lower.

(btw, Ontario the province in Canada, not the region in Cali)

 

[CNGsaves]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here on GJ. I've enjoyed reading some of your posts and checking out some garage pics, some pretty cool shops on here, and some even inspiring.

I am currently setting up a 45,000 BTU Mr. Heater in my garage and I have a question about pipe size. The service at the shop is a one inch steel pipe coming from the meter, it's 30 feet long. I need to run about 40 feet of steel pipe in the shop to the heater. I believe the gas inlet in the heater is 5/8". My question is Can I get away with running a 5/8" reducer from the end of the 1 inch line up to the heater. There would be around 40 feet of 5/8" and 30 feet of 1".

Also I have a non-programmable t-stat 24volt White Rodgers 1E78 model. Would this stat work with the Big Maxx?

How big is your shop (dimensions ??) as it sounds awful big for just a 45K Btu heater in Canada (will heater even handle that space . . . what kind of insulation do you have)??

What else is being powered by the natural gas run to garage?? What NG appliances might be added in future besides your hanging NG heater??

You say you've got 30 ft steel run to garage already . . . . . WHY do you have that if it's never been connected to anything??

How old is that buried steel ?? You may be better off just running buried yellow plastic polyethelene pipe T'd off just after the meter, and around the outside of garage over to near your heater. That would eliminate the need for 40 ft of NG line inside the garage.

Post up pics of what you've got now.

 

[Nickolas40]

I've attached a diagram of what I want to do with it. I'm not sure about all of the required distances and code. I'll check with the links you guys sent. Thanks.

The 1 inch line running to the detached garage was roughed in when we built the house 5 years ago, it is approximately 25-30 feet. The shop is 24 x 30 with a 12 foot ceiling. I'm insulating with r12 in the walls, (yes, I know that's a bit thin for the 2x6 studs) but I'm using the contractor insulation that they used for the basement, I'm going to use Roxul for the basement when I renovate it. Anyway the ceiling will be doubled up to r24 with the bats laying across the rafters and also in between them.

I want to maybe have a port on the wall for hooking up oxy and gas instead of using my acetylene, maybe another port for bbq.

Thanks for the info guys, let me know what you think of the set up in the diagram.

 

[acmikee]

I would run 1" all the way so you have plenty of volume. I would also add a ball valve down low for access. also add a T for your BBQ now and just cap it.

 

[sprntpshr]

I've attached a diagram of what I want to do with it.
The 1 inch line running to the detached garage was roughed in when we built the house 5 years ago, it is approximately 25-30 feet.

I want to maybe have a port on the wall for hooking up oxy and gas instead of using my acetylene, maybe another port for bbq.

Thanks for the info guys, let me know what you think of the set up in the diagram.

A couple of questions for you... The existing 1 in line buried or run along building walls above ground? The new line on the building interior or outside the building? Any further gas load besides what you have mentioned?

The proposed piping instal has many variables/code requirements and I am just trying to narrow it down for you.

 

[Nickolas40]

The one inch line coming from house/meter is buried. it runs right to the outside shop wall and sticks out of the ground about a foot high. I need to elbow it into the shop at that point. The diagram shows where it continues from there or at least how I would like for it to be. I want to run the pipes in the wall and above the ceiling joists, I am going to close it off after I insulate. Hope this helps.

 

[Nickolas40]

"A couple of questions for you... The existing 1 in line buried or run along building walls above ground? The new line on the building interior or outside the building? Any further gas load besides what you have mentioned?

The proposed piping instal has many variables/code requirements and I am just trying to narrow it down for you."

The only other loads besides the furnace in the basement would be maybe a port in the shop for oxy/gas or a bbq port.

And the lines in the shop would be interior of course.

 

[Nickolas40]

Forgot to mention gas water heater and gas range in the house as far as loads are concerned. Thanks

 

[sprntpshr]

The one inch line coming from house/meter is buried. it runs right to the outside shop wall and sticks out of the ground about a foot high. I need to elbow it into the shop at that point. The diagram shows where it continues from there or at least how I would like for it to be. I want to run the pipes in the wall and above the ceiling joists, I am going to close it off after I insulate. Hope this helps.

What type of underground line was buried and is it coated and ends capped? If so then you should be able to use it. Use an outdoor rated shutoff valve before the pipe goes underground and a shutoff valve where the steel ug line sticks out of the ground before the house-line enters the shop.

Edit; Noticed underground is steel.

Oxy-fuel torches use a fuel gas usually at 2 psi or higher so that may present a problem as the utility supplies ~ 8 in W.C. I have used oxygen- propane for years on a 20 lb tank for years without issues.

Based on the info given 3/4" should be good given the future loads for the piping addition from your existing stub into your shop. Put a Tee for the BBQ just before your new piping enter the shop wall.

Piping can't be buried in a wall or in an inaccessible location. For a shop I put the piping where it is visible on 3/4" pipe standoffs. TSC had them in London store last time I was there.

Yes, 1/2" would "work" but if your 45K BTU heater proves to be too small then the max you could connect would be 79K BTU heater. 3/4" gives you 166K BTU and only have to pipe it once.
Total up the load of existing and planned gas appliances, the present gas meter may be too small, typical residential gas meters were 225K BTU capacity in UG's area.


**Disclaimer..Information contained here applies to Ontario only, check your local authority having jurisdiction for all instal code questions and complying with local codes..If in doubt contact a local contractor**

 

[Nickolas40]

So I made an agreement with my gas guy. I would mount the heater unit to the ceiling (done), and I would install the piping to the unit from the pipe sitting outside the shop. He will connect the piping to the gas meter at the house, electrical, t-stat and the venting.

I am debating whether to locate the shut-off on the inside of the shop or on the outside. I originally wanted to hide the pipes in the interior walls and attic but if I install the shut-off on the inside, then the pipe would have to exposed running up the wall since the shut-off can't be hidden. I asked him about a trap door but he says no.

I need to know if black pipe is ok to run up the outside wall exposed to the elements and if there are any rules regarding passing a pipe through an outside building wall.

My gas guy has been pretty helpful so far but takes a long time to answer back any questions I have. Any thoughts on these? Check my album for diagrams, I will be adding more photos as I go along.

Thanks Gents

 

[mygarageone]

Not sure if in wall is ok in your area , it is for us. You need a shut off for and at the equipment no matter ,but if it were me I would have one just as it enters the building to for emergencies.

 

[Nickolas40]

I'm pretty sure its ok to hide the pipes in the wall and attic, but what I was asking about was the initial penetration through the outside wall (siding). I was going to use spray foam and then secure it on the inside to a wall stud, just wondering if there was anything else I missed. Like maybe clearances within the drilled passage or pipe covering, maybe a flange just for looks etc.

So I will install a shutoff on the outside before it enters the shop and another shutoff up near the heater unit. Thanks

 

[TractorJeff]

Run 3/4" black iron.
Why?
I counted 6 elbows and 2 valves in your drawing.
Each represents a restriction/pressure drop.