Gas vs. electric heating costs?

[aptdweller]

I have an attached two car garage that I was looking to heat this winter. Earlier this year I got a new furnace and the two companies that also did unit heaters said that I would be looking at about $1500 to $1800 for a 25 kBtu unit.

Now that they have actually come out and quoted me, the cheapest quote I have is $2500. That got me thinking that I could set up a 4.8 kBtu electric heater for a grand total of 0$, given that I have the parts already.

The main thing that is boils down to is how much more is this going to cost me to run? Overall, per Btu electric is about twice as expensive (9/13/17 cents/kWh), but how can I estimate how many years it will take to even out?

 

[theoldwizard1]

$2500 dollars worth of electricity at $0.09/kWh is 27,777 kWh.

If you run your 4.8 kBTU electric furnace for 1 hours that is 1.4 kW. 27,777 kWh / 1.4 kW means you can run your furnace for 19,840 hours before you will spend that $2500.

At $0.17/kWh, it is only 10,500 hours.


Someone double check me !

 

[aptdweller]

My mistake, it is a 4.8 kW heater (16 kBtu/hr). I'm getting my units mixed up.

At an average of about 0.13 cents/kWh, I get 4006 hours.

 

[rlev11]

You are going to have to try to figure out the number of days and number of hours per day the heat will be on in order to figure out a payback time. If you are only going to heat the garage on weekends to do work out there, the payback time will be a lot longer than if you are going to keep it 70 degrees out there all winter long.
Once you calculate how many hours per year you would be using electric, you need to figure on the cost of gas for those same hours and add that to the initial $2500.00..

I know in my case I did the same thing a couple of years ago, I only heat my garage occasionally over the winter. I figured my payback time was well over 20 years. Considering my age, I hooked up an electric heater the next week and never looked back

 

[aptdweller]

The usage case would be 6 Celsius all winter long and 15-20 about 5 times a week. I really have no idea how many hours of run time that will translate to.

I think one option is to run electric for one winter and see what the cost is.

 

[Alchymist]

It's not only the $2500 dollars you are using to pay for electricity that you would have paid for the installation, but the actual cost of the gas for heating as well.

 

[aptdweller]

True - electricity is going to cost me $0.13/kWh on average and gas is roughly $0.06/kWhe. What I'm trying to figure out is when the up front cost of the unit heater is equivalent to the increased cost of the energy.

 

[rlev11]

Ok, so just rough numbers. you can use the electric heater for 4000 hours which will make up the $2500 gas install cost. Since gas is half the price, so the same 4000 hours of gas equivalent would cost $1250. $1250 would give you another 2000 hours of electricity, so it all evens out once you run the electric heater for 6000 hours. How long it will take to run the electric heater 6000 hours is any ones guess.

 

[rlev11]

Taken to the next step, lets say you run the electric heater 5 days a week for 6 months out of the year at an average of 3 hours of actual run time per day. That comes out to 130 days per year in which your break even time is 15 years

 

[thickhead]

Why don't you set up what you have and try it out?

 

[ms fowler]

Remodeling the office and lab at work, and I get the electric baseboard heaters for free--about 20 liner feet of heaters.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Electric heat is 100%efficient compared to gas,but certain folks have made electric rates skyrocket in the last few years.
I'd be willing to bet $s to donuts that as soon as they're done beating electricity to death gas rates will climb excessively also.
That's what happens when you have no competition.

 

[Ironhorse74]

http://nepacrossroads.com/fuel-comparison-calculator.php

Electric rates vary quite a bit regionally. Here in the PNW with all the hydroelectric they are next to nothing. That being said heating with electricity is like washing dishes with Scotch. It works but it's expensive.

 

[Peter Mc Mahon]

electricity is 13cents for the charge but over here in St. George where I live [hydro one] it is also a very hefty delivery charge, debt reduction charge tax etc. So in total, more than half of my hydro bill is the other '****' that is literally greater than the actual cost of the hydro. So in my case and I would guess yours too, 25-30 cents is more realistic.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Electric heat is 100%efficient compared to gas,but certain folks have made electric rates skyrocket in the last few years.

Specifically, electric RESISTANCE heat is 100% efficient and yes, some of the heat from burning natural gas goes up the chimney, but you are significantly over simplifying things. As mentioned electric and gas rates vary greatly in different parts of the country.

If you are specifically talking about heating an interior space, nothing beats the operational cost of a heat pump (admittedly efficiencies drop off below 0F).

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Specifically, electric RESISTANCE heat is 100% efficient and yes, some of the heat from burning natural gas goes up the chimney, but you are significantly over simplifying things. As mentioned electric and gas rates vary greatly in different parts of the country.

If you are specifically talking about heating an interior space, nothing beats the operational cost of a heat pump (admittedly efficiencies drop off below 0F).

Simple is good.
Like I said watch what happens to gas prices in the future.

 

[Smoker]

I doubt gas prices will shift much. The US market is totally saturated to the point oil producers just burn the stuff at the point of extraction. Unless the government OK's the permits for a bunch of LNG export facilities (which I highly doubt they will) natural gas will remain very, very cheap. It may get even cheaper if oil prices rebound.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Electric heat is 100%efficient compared to gas,but certain folks have made electric rates skyrocket in the last few years.
I'd be willing to bet $s to donuts that as soon as they're done beating electricity to death gas rates will climb excessively also.
That's what happens when you have no competition.

Who is this "THEY" of which you speak?

Natural Gas prices are set, like any other commodity, by the market place. Your prices include that PLUS whatever additional costs your Public Utility Commission has approved to cover your distribution company's costs above the wholesale price.

Right now, natural gas prices are cheap in the U.S because of large new reserves of shale gas brought into production via the use of new technology including horizontal drilling and fracking (actually fracking's been around for 100 years or more...so mostly it's the horizontal drilling that's new).

Natural gas wholesale prices dropped BELOW virtually all natural gas producer's costs to produce the gas over the last couple of years. Natural gas will eventually get more expensive as producers have dropped back on new well completions in response to these new price signals, and the market is getting tighter.

HOWEVER, for our the rest of my life (say 30 years or so), I would bet my whole retirement fund that power will always be much more expensive than gas (say 3 times as much when directly compared) because the U.S. has gone all-in on natural gas power production. Old coal plants are being retired as fast as they can buy padlocks to hang on the gates right now and new combined cycle natural gas units are coming on line to replace them because of:

Cheap Gas
New EPA Regulations

Since these units and the grid behind them deliver roughly HALF the energy of the burned gas to your home (due to generation losses and line losses), and the grid is mondo-expensive to maintain, you won't see power cheaper than gas for any sustained period ever, period, end of story....until something changes.

Changes would include:

EPA regulations that send the power companies out with their padlocks to lock the gates on their combined cycle gas power plants (note that environmentalists are looking at the new natural gas supply as a "bridge" at best and "the breath of satan incarnate" at worst....as natural gas is simply the "most environmentally friendly" of a list of bad choices in their view.

Cold fusion (or some similar) game changing technology

Cheap Solar plus Cheap Batteries - Need MAJOR improvements from both if you're going to make that work without a grid....especially on the battery side.

If by "They" you mean the vast international conspiracy to cheat us and make our lives more difficult...then I can't help you with that one.

Phil

 

[James-W]

Unless you are working all day every day in your shop I would go with the electric heat.. The "payback time" will be several years anyway and who knows, you may decide to move long before that time gets here.

 

[ambenz]

In my area, natural gas has been much cheaper than electric.
I heat my 660 squares with gas and a PROCOM 30000 BTU DUAL FUEL VENT-FREE GARAGE HEATER.
It was about $200 at my local Menards.
I mounted it on the wall, under my only garage window and backed it with a piece of slate.
I ran 1/2" black gas line to my garage when I had the garage built back in 2002, it was an extra $200 and I am glad I did!
I use a 20" box fan to blow the heat across the garage.

The whole setup cost me less than $500 to install and cost me about $25+/- a month to heat my garage 24/7 at 55F. I bump it up to 63F or so when I am working in there in the winter.
My insulation isn't the best either, with 1/2 Styrofoam walls and ceiling is Foam Board Insulation Backed with Aluminum Foil...that's it.
The benefits of keeping the whole garage heated is that you can keep all your freezable liquids where they are at!
We also have a car care product business warehoused in it so it is critical we keep our products from freezing.
Also, keeping your vehicles from extreme tempatures prolongs the life of components and fluids.
Storing my Mustang in the winter, it has never been in temperatures below freezing which helps preserve my ride like new.
Keeping the garage slab warm is like a heat sink and even when open the 16' wide door to drive a vehicle out, the recovery time to reheat is minimal.
All flammable liquids are on the opposite side of the room in a metal cabinet.
To heat the same space with electric would cost me over $100 a month I am sure.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Who is this "THEY" of which you speak?

Natural Gas prices are set, like any other commodity, by the market place. Your prices include that PLUS whatever additional costs your Public Utility Commission has approved to cover your distribution company's costs above the wholesale price.

Right now, natural gas prices are cheap in the U.S because of large new reserves of shale gas brought into production via the use of new technology including horizontal drilling and fracking (actually fracking's been around for 100 years or more...so mostly it's the horizontal drilling that's new).

Natural gas wholesale prices dropped BELOW virtually all natural gas producer's costs to produce the gas over the last couple of years. Natural gas will eventually get more expensive as producers have dropped back on new well completions in response to these new price signals, and the market is getting tighter.

HOWEVER, for our the rest of my life (say 30 years or so), I would bet my whole retirement fund that power will always be much more expensive than gas (say 3 times as much when directly compared) because the U.S. has gone all-in on natural gas power production. Old coal plants are being retired as fast as they can buy padlocks to hang on the gates right now and new combined cycle natural gas units are coming on line to replace them because of:

Cheap Gas
New EPA Regulations

Since these units and the grid behind them deliver roughly HALF the energy of the burned gas to your home (due to generation losses and line losses), and the grid is mondo-expensive to maintain, you won't see power cheaper than gas for any sustained period ever, period, end of story....until something changes.

Changes would include:

EPA regulations that send the power companies out with their padlocks to lock the gates on their combined cycle gas power plants (note that environmentalists are looking at the new natural gas supply as a "bridge" at best and "the breath of satan incarnate" at worst....as natural gas is simply the "most environmentally friendly" of a list of bad choices in their view.

Cold fusion (or some similar) game changing technology

Cheap Solar plus Cheap Batteries - Need MAJOR improvements from both if you're going to make that work without a grid....especially on the battery side.

If by "They" you mean the vast international conspiracy to cheat us and make our lives more difficult...then I can't help you with that one.

Phil

Our nat gas prices have been going up pretty steadily over the last few years around here.
I've put heat pumps in a couple of our rentals,and it's made a hell of a differance in the heating bills.

 

[Tonellin]

Who is this "THEY" of which you speak?

Natural Gas prices are set, like any other commodity, by the market place. Your prices include that PLUS whatever additional costs your Public Utility Commission has approved to cover your distribution company's costs above the wholesale price.

Right now, natural gas prices are cheap in the U.S because of large new reserves of shale gas brought into production via the use of new technology including horizontal drilling and fracking (actually fracking's been around for 100 years or more...so mostly it's the horizontal drilling that's new).

Natural gas wholesale prices dropped BELOW virtually all natural gas producer's costs to produce the gas over the last couple of years. Natural gas will eventually get more expensive as producers have dropped back on new well completions in response to these new price signals, and the market is getting tighter.

HOWEVER, for our the rest of my life (say 30 years or so), I would bet my whole retirement fund that power will always be much more expensive than gas (say 3 times as much when directly compared) because the U.S. has gone all-in on natural gas power production. Old coal plants are being retired as fast as they can buy padlocks to hang on the gates right now and new combined cycle natural gas units are coming on line to replace them because of:

Cheap Gas
New EPA Regulations

Since these units and the grid behind them deliver roughly HALF the energy of the burned gas to your home (due to generation losses and line losses), and the grid is mondo-expensive to maintain, you won't see power cheaper than gas for any sustained period ever, period, end of story....until something changes.

Changes would include:

EPA regulations that send the power companies out with their padlocks to lock the gates on their combined cycle gas power plants (note that environmentalists are looking at the new natural gas supply as a "bridge" at best and "the breath of satan incarnate" at worst....as natural gas is simply the "most environmentally friendly" of a list of bad choices in their view.

Cold fusion (or some similar) game changing technology

Cheap Solar plus Cheap Batteries - Need MAJOR improvements from both if you're going to make that work without a grid....especially on the battery side.

If by "They" you mean the vast international conspiracy to cheat us and make our lives more difficult...then I can't help you with that one.

Phil

Great post..good to see some common sense on this board beyond the typical 'gubment' finger pointing

 

[theoldwizard1]

Like I said watch what happens to gas prices in the future.

Our nation gas prices have been going up pretty steadily over the last few years around here.

There are a LOT of gas wells that are drilled and capped, plus with fracking they know where to find a LOT more gas.

Demand for gas has gone up because manufacturing is finally back on its feet AND many coal fired electric plants have changed (or will in the near future) to gas.

 

[petee_c]

Aptdweller,

What did you do with your old furnace?

I'd put the old one in my 3 car garage.

That's what I plan to do one day.....

Sent from my LG-D852 using Tapatalk

 

[aptdweller]

The old furnace was carted away by the installers. They're pretty strict about only having licensed people work with gas lines, so I don't see any way of making that work.

I think the plan is to run electric for a winter and look into getting one of those $600 Mr. Heater 50k Btu units installed. I'm fortunate that I work with a lot of tradespeople, so I'm sure I can find someone to work on the side.

 

[Showkey]

The old furnace was carted away by the installers. They're pretty strict about only having licensed people work with gas lines, , so I'm sure I can find someone to work on the side.

Not to derail this cost thread........

So.........how is side work any different from DIY work especially when it comes to permits, inspection, insurance, licensed etc etc and who's loooking and who will know 2-5 years down the road ????? Yes ......I do realize it's all good until it's not.

But.......I also worked in product liability and fire investigations were common..........DIY wiring, extension cord, poor generator installs were common, small engine fire, vehicle fires........insurance cared less about installs they wanted product failure to blame and the homeowner was always made whole......even when they totally screwed up. ( like fuel spills, exhaust to close to combustibles, aux fuel tanks gone bad, fuel storage issues, wiring in cars and homes, to mention a few).

Kinda like water heater installs.............nobody I know ever gets a permit, even the Big box installers just show up and 40-60 minutes later their gone.

 

[TangoFoxTrot]

I just know I have in laws that had a "summer" cottage that was 100% electric with baseboard heating (and mediocre insulation) and the utility bill was off the charts expensive if it was used in the winter. Like you were better off staying at a hotel.

If the OP is paying up to 17 cents a KWh, I would think a gas furnace would pay for itself VERY quickly, plus just do a better job heating the place up in not much time.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

How long it will take to run the electric heater 6000 hours is any ones guess.

My guess is 6000 hours... What did I win?


Tommy

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

There are a LOT of gas wells that are drilled and capped, plus with fracking they know where to find a LOT more gas.

Demand for gas has gone up because manufacturing is finally back on its feet AND many coal fired electric plants have changed (or will in the near future) to gas.

Every year when it starts getting cold the gas co around here starts rattling its,chains about shortages,and rates going up.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Not to derail this cost thread........

So.........how is side work any different from DIY work especially when it comes to permits, inspection, insurance, licensed etc etc and who's loooking and who will know 2-5 years down the road ????? Yes ......I do realize it's all good until it's not.

But.......I also worked in product liability and fire investigations were common..........DIY wiring, extension cord, poor generator installs were common, small engine fire, vehicle fires........insurance cared less about installs they wanted product failure to blame and the homeowner was always made whole......even when they totally screwed up. ( like fuel spills, exhaust to close to combustibles, aux fuel tanks gone bad, fuel storage issues, wiring in cars and homes, to mention a few).

Kinda like water heater installs.............nobody I know ever gets a permit, even the Big box installers just show up and 40-60 minutes later their gone.[/QUOTEthe box stores around here make installers pull permits for plumbing installs.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Menuhttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://oilprice.com/Energy/Natural-Gas/Why-Did-Natural-Gas-Prices-Just-Rise-25-In-Two-Weeks.html&ved=0ahUKEwjjsMm2gevPAhVHDcAKHWp7BwQQFggqMAE&usg=AFQjCNE-Yo5fBe-1R58L2H44Oq5-InLvyA

 

[Pete359]

Vent free wall mounted gas heaters are cheap and easy. However, carbon monoxide must be taken into consideration. Also, a good amount of moisture is introduced into your workspace as a byproduct of the heaters gas combustion. This moisture will condense on cooler surfaces such as anything metal, and you know what happens then, corrosion. Electric is much drier to use and much more costly. Your plan of a 50K but direct vent natural gas heater is, in my humble opinion, your best, most satisfying methodology to heat your space. That is, unless you have an abundance of hardwood at your disposal and you feel up to cutting, splitting, stacking and feeding a wood burner.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[theoldwizard1]

Unless you are working all day every day in your shop I would go with the electric heat.. The "payback time" will be several years anyway and who knows, you may decide to move long before that time gets here.

Reasonable logic. You just have to grit your teeth every month when the electric bill comes in.

 

[aptdweller]

how is side work any different from DIY work

I'm not sure I understand - I'm not licensed, but I can have a licensed person do it. Most HVAC companies here won't touch the retail heaters because the margins are too small for them. There aren't any permits involved in my location.

Vent free wall mounted gas heaters

I don't believe that you are allowed to install those anymore here.

wood burner

You essentially can't insure a house with wood heat anymore, not to mention that I'm in city limits so it isn't really legal anymore.

I appreciate all the help guys. Going into this I was under the impression I could get a gas heater installed under 2k, but I guess that simply isn't possible.

 

[couch67]

aptdweller, I'm in Ottawa (stittsville) and heat my attached 500 sf garage with baseboards. I keep it around 10C all winter, and bump it up to 18-20 when working in there. It heats up pretty fast. I've got 3 baseboards totalling about 4000 watts. I'll normally turn the heat on in mid Nov.

On average I notice the hydro bill goes up about $30 in the peak winter months, depending on how much time I'm out there. Garage is pretty well insulated, including the garage door.

couch

 

[Boilerhouse]

aptdweller, I'm in Ottawa (stittsville) and heat my attached 500 sf garage with baseboards. I keep it around 10C all winter, and bump it up to 18-20 when working in there. It heats up pretty fast. I've got 3 baseboards totalling about 4800 watts. I'll normally turn the heat on in mid Nov.

On average I notice the hydro bill goes up about $30 in the peak winter months, depending on how much time I'm out there. Garage is pretty well insulated, including the garage door.

couch

At an estimated 20 cents per KwH when you factor in all charges, $30.00 will buy you 150 KwH of electricity. This suggests your baseboards @ 4.8 Kw are running about 31 Hrs per month, or about an hour a day. This sounds low, but you are probably picking up some heat from the wall shared with the house.

 

[Boilerhouse]

Just some random thoughts
I do not know how much residential natural gas costs, I have never seen a bill, but the rule of thumb for industrial customers is that, on a unit for unit comparison, current natural gas cost is 25% of the cost of electricity (In Ontario). Electricity is forecast to continue to rise until 2025, then level out. (Min of Energy Long Term Forecast).

No one can predict the future but I see 3 potential headwinds for natural gas.
Regulation
-The wild card is fracking and it's impact on ground water quality and seismic activity. Increased regulation could drive up costs. (Can/US)
Demand
-Coastal Liquefied Nat Gas facilities were built to import nat gas. They are now being re-purposed to export it. (US)
-Coal Generation retirement. 500 coal fired generation plants have been retired removing 60,000 Mw of generation. More are planned. Some of this capacity will be made up with nat gas. (US)

 

[ForceFed70]

Was just reading a report from my gas utility. These services are heavily regulated in Canada, you could almost call them "government run". As such, they're very transparent with all of their data, etc. Canada is a global provider of LNG.

Long story short, there were 2 things the jumped out at me in their report.
1) LNG is currently 1/4 the price it was 10 years ago. And it was cheaper than electricity back then.
2) With fracking becoming mainstream and recent enormous resource discoveries, there is a HUGE supply of gas. Of our current LNG wells, only 1/3 are in operation. The other 2/3 are capped and waiting. So much excess that they've not drilled a new well in 5 years, nor are they even looking for new caches.

Their outlook was that LNG would remain significantly cheaper that electricity for the next 25-50 years at least.