Gave up on the permit/inspection process today.

[Nova]

I finally had enough today and decided the finishing work on my garage is going ahead without a permit or the "mandatory" inspections.

I tried to be a responsible homeowner and adhere to the city's permit and inspection process. Right from the get go it was nothing but a PITA and costed me a ton of progress. I work out of province, 15 on 6 off, and basically burn the better part of a day between the drive home and back to work. It leaves a pretty small window of opportunity to get anything done as it is. My first attempt to discuss the teardown of my old barn, my building plans and placement on the lot stopped short because the guy who approves plans and does the subsequent inspections was away for the week. So that was one set of days off wasted. The second attempt was delayed 2 days because he was gone again.

He was easy enough to deal with, and I got the destruction/contruction and had the old barn torn down quickly. I had a little trouble finding a cement guy and once I did we were plagued by wet weather. We had a couple days of decent weather and had to go hard to finish up the prep work and go straight to pouring. When it came time for the footer and rebar inspection we litterally had to drive around town to track the guy down so we could be sure we'd be able to pour the next day.

I got in contact with him regarding the framing inspection before heading back to work at the end of my days off, and asked him to contact my father if he has any concerns. Turns out there is a good chance he never did look at the framing, which we found out after once again having a hard time getting ahold of him to see if he wanted to see the wiring before we insulate. He said the next thing he wants to see is vapour barrier and insulation.

I didn't manage to get a lot done in the fall/winter. I did the insulation in the roof and then spent 3 months straight at work with the bare minmum days off as required by law. Now I have finally got back home, pushing hard to get the garage done. I decided to pull some holidays since all the spring rain we've had is going to keep the oil patch slow anyway. I've got the insulation and vapour barrier done, and last week the inspector wasn't around. I went to the city office this morning thinking he would be there so I could renew my permit and get the inspection done.....gone for the week again! And nobody who covers for him when he is gone! This time I was sure to express my disappointment about how inefficient this system is. We aren't a big community, just over 5000, but we are experiencing a lot of growth, housing upgrades, flipping, new builds, ect. I can't understand how contractors are able to cope with this, unless everyone is forgoing the whole permit process and doing the work anyway.

So I have decided this is it, I am done with the whole process. My permit was up for renewal and there had been no contact made regarding my progress. Arranging inspections were a PITA/did not happen. Despite the city's literature stating that they require one day notice prior to needing an inspection for schedualing purposes......two weeks hardly compares. There is no way I am going to blow another set of days off without and forward progress....my time is too valuable and it is costing me nearly $200 round trip to come home and do this work.

So I went hard today, got drywall sheets up on all the walls before supper time. It was a bit tough wrangling 10 foot sheets solo.....but I am really happy to be making progress. Got a drywall hoist and hopefully going to get the roof at least half done by the end of the night. I am hoping to have at least a cost of mud on by time I head back to work later in the week.

It is a hell of a feeling not being dragged down by red tape anymore. Hopefully no issues arise from my decision to move forward with my build, but I will not go down without a fight either way. The city needs to hire a full time building inspector if they want compliance. I found out on the weekend that not only does the inspector already hold more than one role within the city's operations, he has a side commitment to a local training organization, and is also trucking in a remote area for 2-3 weeks at a time. No wonder he is never around!

 

[R6 Racer]

Take lots o pictures!

glwb
Steve

 

[pop pop]

And document that you called at least one day ahead and they didn't show.

 

[stricht8]

Yes I agree. Take pictures! They might not care that you had to wait. The last thing you want to do is cut open your Sheetrock to show insulation and vapor barrier.

 

[porschedude996TT]

This must be a local problem. I was not a fan of having big brother looking over what I was doing over the years. This point of view changed when I was selling the my house some 18 years ago. I had put in an in ground Hot Tube with gas heater and all the bells and whistles. I got a permit after the fact and the inspector praised me on the electrical job. My shp build was all on the up and up and I made it through the process. Now I am working on another Hot Tube, all electical. The process is a B&*ch, but what is a guy to do? I can see your point of giving up, but isn't there someone higher up the chain to get things in line?

 

[rodnok1]

I practically have to BEG the inspectors to come out. Even when you can catch them in the office they act like it's a favor to come out when the feel like it. Forget about leaving a message they NEVER return or show up if you can't directly get ahold of them. I tried just asking insp dept what inspec exactly they wanted done: their answer was if you don't know you shouldn't be doing the work....so I have an Elec insp and that's it, screw em. Last time I checked the inspectors work the the tax payers... You built a garage so to hell with the inspections...

 

[TooTall]

Write the city manager. Be polite, state your case. If that doesn't get any action, attend a city council meeting, they usually have a public comment period. You can basically stand up and explain the situation. They should be interested considering they are the ones loosing the revenue from the permits and inspections.

Good luck,
Kurt O.

 

[srmofo]

Ive been dealing with my inspectors/city planner for the past year. I started trying to build my garage last year about this time and didnt get started on it till november because of the variance process....and the fact that the city planner was too busy planning a festival of some sort and the CEO is a *****.

Now Im trying to put a privacy fence around my BACK yard because im on a corner lot. Since city ordinances are kinda generic and my neighborhood is over 100 years old it doesnt exactly go by current code. Since the code is generic it is left open to interpretation. The current CEO views my back yard as a front yard because it faces a street. She wants me to place my privacy fence 12.5' from the sidewalks edge on my side. My lot is only 44' wide. My garage that I just built is only 10' from the sidewalks edge. Nevermind the fact that my neighbor across the street has a privacy fence thats only 2.5' from the sidewalk. Her reasoning is "it was built before current code". I informed her fence is only 7 years old and current code is well past that. "doesnt matter" is the response I get. Shes a completely clueless *****, unable to rationalize even the smallest thing.

I said the hell with the permit, Im putting it up this memorial weekend later this month. Im gonna play a little game and see if they even notice when they come out to do the electrical inspection.

 

[logical]

wait...you did drywall on walls before ceilings?

 

[Nova]

wait...you did drywall on walls before ceilings?

Yep. When we framed it we made it 10' 1/2". Did half of the roof tonight, takes a bit of work in some spots but for the most part the sheets are sliding in easy enough. I would have sooner done the roof first, but it is more of a 2 person job and I didn't have a second set of hands availible during the day.

I took a video of the insulation and vapour barrier last night. Should be covered on that end.

porschedude996TT: The lady I talked to at the city office said the building inspector is basically the only one involved as far as making and enforcing rules goes, and nobody really governs his work. I was tempted to get in touch with a councillor as a know a few of them, but then I decided it might be best to leave it be for now....the last thing I want is to become a bullseye for the inspector. I've heard that some of the other people around town that are having issues are planning on pushing the city a little bit with this. One is even an ex-councilman who now flips houses on the side and is being dragged down by this nonsense too.

 

[Printer Mike]

Sometimes it takes a maverick to get 'er done...

 

[sdowney717]

its only a garage not designed for human living. Good idea to document it with video.

what about a future insurance claim, say it burned down and the insurance company discovered it was never finalized?

 

[Phil S.]

The problems your having are typical for a novice. If you had hired a lic. contractor instead of trying to save a few bucks your garage would be finished by now "WITH A PERMIT" and probably for the same or near the same dollars that you are going to eventually spend. How do I know your a novice?? because you hung the drywall on the walls before you did the ceiling and because you called you foundation, foorters instead of footings. Good luck!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bender78]

The problems your having are typical for a novice. If you had hired a lic. contractor instead of trying to save a few bucks your garage would be finished by now "WITH A PERMIT" and probably for the same or near the same dollars that you are going to eventually spend. How do I know your a novice?? because you hung the drywall on the walls before you did the ceiling and because you called you foundation, foorters instead of footings. Good luck!!!!!!!!!

PhiL S. This has to be the least helpful thread response that I've seen on here in quite some time. The members here post for helpful discussion and advise. You apparently have none to offer. And yes, many of us are novices.

Not a very good first post for sure.

What's your agenda?

 

[Ironcrow]

... If you had hired a lic. contractor...

you'd have yet another person who would not return your phone calls

 

[nathank]

The problems your having are typical for a novice. If you had hired a lic. contractor instead of trying to save a few bucks your garage would be finished by now "WITH A PERMIT" and probably for the same or near the same dollars that you are going to eventually spend. How do I know your a novice?? because you hung the drywall on the walls before you did the ceiling and because you called you foundation, foorters instead of footings. Good luck!!!!!!!!!

Oh Broooooooother.

I guess the licensed contractors have a magic wand? The problems experienced by the OP look like they couldn't have been avoided by anyone.

Besides, sometimes it's more fun to do the work yourself. I sit behind a desk 40 hours a week (web programmer), so when the weekend rolls around I'm ready to swing a hammer!

 

[RbrtAWhyt]

The problems your having are typical for a novice. If you had hired a lic. contractor instead of trying to save a few bucks your garage would be finished by now "WITH A PERMIT" and probably for the same or near the same dollars that you are going to eventually spend. How do I know your a novice?? because you hung the drywall on the walls before you did the ceiling and because you called you foundation, foorters instead of footings. Good luck!!!!!!!!!

Thats got to be one of the dumbest statement I've ever read on here and I've read a lot of dumb ****. He's obviously a novice because he said "footers" instead of "footings"? Gimme a break.

 

[Nova]

Thanks for the support on this guys.

Phil, I haven't got a clue where you are coming from. If you think I could have had a contractor build the garage for the same price in the same time period, clearly you are just making assumptions. Like Ironcrow said, it would just be another person to have to chase after. Heck, I'd be lucky to even have anything more than an empty space in my backyard. Like I said in my original post, the city is experiencing a bit of a boom. The contractors we know and trust are able to pick and choose what they do and when they do it. When I was looking to have the pad done in spring, most of the guys I called said late summer or early fall.

And while I may be a "novice" I hardly think that should have any bearing on how the inspection process is handled. If the city expects compliance, they need to be available in a timely fashion and inspect with consistency. Being that I am doing work on my own time, I would imagine I am and have been a little more flexible than most contractors can be when it comes time for inspection. Looking around town at the volume of work being done, there is no way contractors are even having their work inspected. There would be a ton of half finished work waiting on inspections. That is where the consistency comes in, just because somebody is called a "contractor" does not mean their work should be left alone and assumed to be done in accordance with code. With a $100 annual business license I could call myself a general contractor, should that be all it takes to avoid this process? If the city is just scribbling out permits, collecting the money and then not following the process, to me that is simply a cash grab technique.


And I am a bit curious on this, why is hanging the drywall on the walls before ceiling looked at as a crime? I knew prior to doing the work that this was the general rule. Unfortunately doing it that way would have been highly inefficient given my lack of assistance during the day.

 

[jtbinvalrico]

Geez Phil, there's probably a pro-only forum you can take that to.........the point here is that we enjoy doing the work ourselves.

A lot of us get a great deal of satisfaction out of doing something ourselves. I've done my own shop subpanel, floor installs, 1960's speaker rebuilds, pool heater install.....etc.

I remember the first time I popped a carb off my 76 Vette (it's gone now).......had no idea what I was doing; but I was curious and willing to learn - that car ran great when I sold it. My next step is some welding.....I have no idea how to do it, but learning how is going to be fun with my daughter.

I feel an affinity to these guys because of their can-do spirit and attitude......something lacking in the world these days. It's rather pathetic that the tone of your post suggests that you hope he fails......seems to sum you up.

 

[buddyboy]

Phil S. and his 2 posts, is an obvious novice when it comes to posting valuable insight.

If he didn't have a stick up his **** maybe he would be busy building garages and not complaining about a home owner DIYing.

putting drywall on the ceiling first allows the sheets on the wall to hold up the "edges" of the ceiling sheets. If used the wrong vocabulary I'm sure Phil will correct it for us idiots.

 

[ZRX61]

The problems your having are typical for a novice. If you had hired a lic. contractor instead of trying to save a few bucks your garage would be finished by now "WITH A PERMIT" and probably for the same or near the same dollars that you are going to eventually spend. How do I know your a novice?? because you hung the drywall on the walls before you did the ceiling and because you called you foundation, foorters instead of footings. Good luck!!!!!!!!!

This coming from a guy who thinks Horrible Fright is the best thing since sliced bread...

 

[Phil S.]

Holy Cow!!! I really stepped into a hornets nest. I respect all your replies to my comments. You'll have to excuse me because I'm having surgery this afternoon and I'm going to do it myself. No need for a surgeon I like doing things myself.

 

[StingRay]

Phil S. and his 2 posts, is an obvious novice when it comes to posting valuable insight.

If he didn't have a stick up his **** maybe he would be busy building garages and not complaining about a home owner DIYing.

putting drywall on the ceiling first allows the sheets on the wall to hold up the "edges" of the ceiling sheets. If used the wrong vocabulary I'm sure Phil will correct it for us idiots.

What he said plus think about the space between the trusses along the truss supporting wall. If insulation is placed on top of the sheetrock then the only support that edge has is the taping between the wall sheets and the ceiling sheets. The joint will crack and the edge will sag. When the ceiling is done first as stated above the cieling sheets sit on top of the wall sheets at the edge. You may find yourself wanting to scab in some backing before the ceiling goes up or use a crown molding like piece of trim after the fact to add some support the the sheet edges.

And Phil look around this site. A lot if us are your typical DIY guys and gals. Many of us are capable professionals in our fields and quite frankly it isn't much of stretch to imagine a Mechanical Engineer being able to figure out drywall ,a Lawyer figuring out how to paint a floor or an automotive technician hanging a garage door. Framing with a little education and common sense is not beyond an intelligent man or woman. We may not be as fast but the chances are that the job when done is as good or better than the pro will do it. Yes there are some really exceptional pro's out there. My experience is I almost never end up with one of them.

Many come here for the advice they will get from those who are pro's or have learned from the school of hard knocks. Some amazing structures have been built by the members of this forum. I'm sure some mistakes were made too. Read about some that have had pro's do the work for them and I'm sure you'll find all were 100% happy the job when it was done.....NOT. Some of the biggest disasters have come at the hand of the "professional".

For most of humanities existance man has built his own shelters. The chances are that your parents or grand parents did. Mine did.

I find your remarks insulting.

 

[Falcon67]

1x4's make great "po boy" crown molding and that will help brace the edges of the sheetrock. Agree - the ceiling rock should have gone up first.

Which just made me think - Some "contractor" in the way past - maybe early 80s and way,way before we bought this house - remodeled the kitchen and added a back bedroom and bath to the house. All the ceiling sheetrock in the addition was put up last, not first. Oopsie.

Our back neighbor had her house remodeled starting in the fall of 2008. In the summer of 2009, she finally fired those deadbeats and hired another that actually finished the work and made it look nice. There are no permits or inspections here, so I think "lunch" was the hold up with the first contractor. The first group kept great hours - showed up at about 10, break for lunch 11, back to the site about 2, knock off at 4. I took a week off to do work on oure house, tore off 30' of siding, insulated and replaced 2 windows in two days. In that time, the contractors behind me cut the facia and overhang off the side and back of the house. Well, one guy did. The others drank Cokes.

 

[Bender78]

Holy Cow!!! I really stepped into a hornets nest. I respect all your replies to my comments. You'll have to excuse me because I'm having surgery this afternoon and I'm going to do it myself. No need for a surgeon I like doing things myself.

Couldn't be a lobotomy, could it? I believe that could only be done once.

 

[G1K]

Phil S: By any chance are you an out of work contractor or laborer?

Ryan

 

[Underdog]

When it comes to building permits on little projects I take the Army approach "Don't Ask, Don't tell".

 

[Pure Oil]

About all I can admit to, is that sometimes you just have to do what you have to do...

 

[Nova]

Thanks for the input regarding the drywall. I think we've got most of it covered. When we did the framing we put up an extra 2x4 on the inside of the first trusses to make sure we would have no issues at all finding a stud when the time came. Plus with the framing being about 10'1/2" (maybe a touch over, the majority of the sheets are sitting above the wall sheets tightly and we are being very generous with the screws. I saw crown molding mentioned, I am planning on that or a cheap quarter round trim or something along those lines along the top painted a similar shade to the work bench countertop. Should look pretty good and make the mud work a tad easier in the corner.

And Phil, hopefully it isn't something a little duct tape can't fix.

 

[bgarrett]

Stingray said it well.

And Phil had no clue whether the original poster might have left the right size gap at the top of his sheetrock walls so that he could slide the ceiling sheetrock in properly.

I agree on avoiding government officials as much as possible.

 

[srmofo]

The problems your having are typical for a novice. If you had hired a lic. contractor instead of trying to save a few bucks your garage would be finished by now "WITH A PERMIT" and probably for the same or near the same dollars that you are going to eventually spend. How do I know your a novice?? because you hung the drywall on the walls before you did the ceiling and because you called you foundation, foorters instead of footings. Good luck!!!!!!!!!

There is no way you can spend only a few dollars more and get a contractor to do it. Not a decent contractor anyways. Corners will be cut and quality will suffer, and thats if the job even gets done.

Hes not having trouble reading a tape measure, hes having trouble getting the city to do the job that he pays for.

Yup a professional built this one....a professional auto mechanic and a few of his buddies. Did it for about 12k less than I was quoted with taller ceilings, nicer garage doors, higher quality shingles,and a hell of alot more attention to detail than any affordable contractor would.

 

[tcianci]

Hey Phil!

Welcome to GJ. Typically we wait till we're well beyond rookie status before we piss of the entire site, I have to commend you on your enthusiasm to jump right in! And just so you know, the poster had a perfectly good reason to do the boarding in the opposite sequence and the term "footing" and "footer" are used interchangeably.

The key to being useful here at GJ is to get your point across without ******* people off. We all (me included) have managed to screw that one up from time to time. Stay cool, think of others and you will love this place.

 

[stangkid14]

Holy Cow!!! I really stepped into a hornets nest. I respect all your replies to my comments. You'll have to excuse me because I'm having surgery this afternoon and I'm going to do it myself. No need for a surgeon I like doing things myself.

Ill bet you have a ASE certified mechanic doing your oil changes, because you are not qualified to take on such a task if you do not do it for a living right???

See how stupid you sound?

 

[RbrtAWhyt]

Holy Cow!!! I really stepped into a hornets nest. I respect all your replies to my comments. You'll have to excuse me because I'm having surgery this afternoon and I'm going to do it myself. No need for a surgeon I like doing things myself.

Good for you Phil. If you have the abilities, why not. Hope it goes well. Are you getting an addadicktome performed?

 

[raffaelli]

Check with the township. Most/some areas will allow a third party, who is certified to perform the required inspections. This is a service which you contract with and pay, they inspect and provide documentation to the township. Could help you here?

 

[wot sales]

I submitted the plans for my garage to the county for building permits. Needed a building permit and also an environmental permit because of being close to the river. No problems at all. During construction I had all of the inspections: before pouring the footings, the foundation, rough and finish build, electrical, and several visits from the environmental inspector. Not a problem with any of them. All of the inspectors were friendly, polite, and helpful. All of the inspections were done when requested.

All of this stuff goes on my property records with the county, so why try to do anything without permits? With the permits and inspections, everything is on record for when I sell the house, no questions about meeting codes, no tax or insurance issues.

 

[kmacht]

As much as I hate building permits, they are a necessary hassel. I don't bother with them if it is something simple like re-modeling a bathroom or moving an electrical plug. Anything that adds or changes substantial structure to the house needs a permit though. If you ever go to sell your house, most mortgage companies will look at the house and compare it to the original structure and pulled building permits. If something was found to be built without a permit you will either have to try and get it approved by the town after the fact, tear it down, or not sell the house. Maybe you aren't planning on selling the house right now. That's great but if you pass away and your wife / kids who inherit the house want to sell it, they are going to have the same problem.

I'm lucky to live in a town where the building inspector is very good about working with homeowners who choose to do work themselves. I have never had a problem getting them out to inspect something or citing me for something not legit. If you ask, he will also tell you what is required by code for things like electrical work, foundations, etc. He honestly doesn't want you to fail an inspection. Alot of that is probably because I have always been open and honest in what I wanted to do and have never tried to hide something from him.

One suggestion for you. You don't necessarily have to be home when they do the inspection. If I am not going to be around and the work is accessible from the yard an inspector will usually come out when you aren't home. I have done this in the past and our guy here just leaves the signed inspection paperwork in the mailbox or taped to the door when he is done. If I do end up failing and aren't there during the inspection the note will state exactly why. If there are still questions I can always call. There is no reason to take a day off of work to get an inspection done.

Keith

 

[airbassador]

The inspections in my area are a joke as well, but it's more that if a contractor does the work, the inspector barely looks, if I do it, they're all over every detail.

However, I think that recent housing regulation changes require you to state 'under penalty of law' if you've had any uninspected work done when you try to sell your house. May be an issue down the road for you. It may cost you more money in the end and worth your time to get him out there, so you might just ask the inspector when the last time he was sued.

On the other hand, what will they do? Condemn it? So you work out of a condemned garage. Whoop de doo!

 

[GarageEnvy]

Holy Cow!!! I really stepped into a hornets nest. I respect all your replies to my comments. You'll have to excuse me because I'm having surgery this afternoon and I'm going to do it myself. No need for a surgeon I like doing things myself.

Phil, I'm a novice DIY surgeon so I thought I'd give you a few pointers. You're going to want to take a muscle relaxer first and you might want to have a plunger on hand as well. This will make pulling your head out of your *** much easier. If you feel awkward after the surgery I'm sure the original poster would be happy to fill the vacancy with one of his "footers"

As to going without permits I'll say that I don't know how it works with your financing regulations in Canada but I can say from an appraiser's perspective most lenders here are not willing to allow the inclusion of unpermitted areas. Without digressing too much it is a confusion between insurable and market values but bottom line is that you might want to look into how it works up there if you plan on selling or refinancing down the road. And before I get the Phil award let me just say that I've done plenty without permits for the exact reasons you've mentioned. I did take the time to consult with plumbers, electricians, engineers and contractors before I did it so it was done right but I understand your frustration. My garage foundation was poured yesterday and this is a process I started out with in January with permits.

 

[airbassador]

Phil S: By any chance are you an out of work contractor or laborer?

Ryan

More likely he's just a troll...