Generac Generator damaged by Transfer switch

[Bert_]

I love it, mwha haha.

It's definitely pieced together with a lot of used parts. A lot of it isn't quite as bad as it looks. While it was never legal, 40 years ago it was very common to have 3 wire feeders with bonded neutral in the same building.

The new transfer switch isn't even close to right. It is the biggest problem. The small romex's tapped into the feeder and the wire "fuse" is a very close second.

At a minimum I would get a fuse in that black disconnect and fix the wiring in for the tan transfer switch. A new panel would be nice.

 

[raco232]

Guys, we got a winner here! Don’t think anyone can top this post.

 

[killahog]

Guys, we got a winner here! Don’t think anyone can top this post.

Thank you for your contribution raco.

 

[killahog]

Bert the small romex wire in connected to a 20A circuit breaker, not pictured, as far as the wires in box B. The copper wire appears to be going to a ground on the box I am not sure of the aluminum one. Could I throw the switch and remove those 2 and replace them with 100 A fuses like the one in the box?. Would I have to have the power shut off at the pole to safely do that?.

 

[Chilliwack Murray]

I’m going to have to agree with others.

Time to get a licensed sparky to trace this out and replace the mess with some hardware from this century… There’s way too many things wrong in those photos.

 

[American Locomotive]

I know what happened with your generator and it's utterly insane what they did. It looks at one point this building (is this really a house?) was set up to manually transfer over to a generator with the ability to isolate from mains. For whatever reason, they had a new generator installed with a fancy ATS, but wanted to keep the old school switchover, so they did some outrageous hacking.

The way this is supposed to work, is your ATS is supposed to be a "sub panel" from your main panel. According to Generac, the ATS's "mains power" input, is supposed to connected to a 70A breaker in the main panel. Then, the ATS is pre-wired with individual branch circuit wires (those are the colorful wires you see going over). You're supposed to take the circuits you want energized in an emergency, disconnect them from your main panel breakers, and hook them up to those wires coming from the ATS breakers. When you lose power, the ATS's "mains input" goes dark, switch transfers over to generator, and the generator starts up. Your "sub panel" is then powered from the generator instead of the mains panel.

But the previous owner of your house did not do that. None of it was ever hooked up. Instead, they did an absolutely absurd amount of hackery. You can see all the colorful wires just sitting there capped with wire nuts. You can see what is supposed to be the mains feed to the ATS taped up and tucked away. Now, look at the service entrance coming in through the top of your main westinghouse panel, that wire goes to the main breaker/disconnect at the bottom. Where the service entrance goes into the main breaker, they stuck in two tiny wires on each leg, and ran them over to another switch they haphazardly added next to it. Then when you look over at the ATS, they spliced in two wires to the main bus-bars coming off from the ATS, and brought those wires over to the main westinghouse panel and connected them to the other side of the switch.

This means your generator is effectively directly connected to the "service" side of your main panel. So when you flipped the fused mains disconnect off, the generator noticed a loss of power, and turned on and began feeding power into your main panel through that red switch, through those tiny wires, into the input of your main panel's main breaker. At that same time, it was also back-feeding power through all of the other wiring on the "service" side of that breaker. As soon as you closed the the fused disconnect labeled "A", you connected your generator directly to your 200A mains feed.

I've attached some pictures diagramming it. That whole setup with the two disconnects, ATS, crazy knife switch, and three separate breaker panels all need to be ripped out, consolidated, and wired up properly. There is a chance your generator may still be okay, but it likely didn't enjoy that experience.

 

[killahog]

That is very detailed explanation and I appreciate you taking the time to post it. Yes this is a house and I think I might know why they did this. When I bought the house it had an electric hot water boiler that used baseboard heating and I am assuming that thing consumed alot of power so instead of spending the money for a properly sized generator they were trying to save money and buy a smaller one. But that is just an assumption . P.S that is an interesting screen name, I am a Locomotive Engineer at CSX.

 

[American Locomotive]

Is there any way you can take a relatively wide shot with all of the panels and disconnects open, including the federal pacific panel?

 

[killahog]

Is there any way you can take a relatively wide shot with all of the panels and disconnects open, including the federal

Is there any way you can take a relatively wide shot with all of the panels and disconnects open, including the federal

The main power comes into a different room than the one that has the federal box, the Guardian box is in separate room from the others.

 

[Terry D]

I might be looking at this wrong, but, your generator panels main lugs are fed both from the utility and from the generator. If your transfer switch is on generator power, when the utility comes back on it will buck voltages. The transfer switch is bypassed. The only way to have avoided this would have been to manually turn the utility disconnect off. This is dangerous as ****. With the utility down, and the generator running, and all disconnects closed, you are back feeding the utility.

They don't seem to be using many branch circuits from the generator panel

 

[killahog]

So, former Generac tech here and Ive worked on those 16Kws many times. So, if you smelt burning wire insulation, its difficult to tell just how much of it is fried.
It could be OK as-is and it could be trash. I mean, you could be looking at the entire rotor or stator being trash at this point in time.
Youre really never going to know until you tear into it and see what youve got.

Badger, if the Rotor and Stator is burnt is this something I could remove and have tested?

 

[killahog]

The circuit board of the generator got a little bit warm.

 

[topcok88]

I dunno how many times you need to be told to call a competent electrical technician but I think it should be said again. You really need to have that electrical mess fixed by a professional who knows what they are looking at.

 

[killahog]

I will call an electrician and I appreciate the advice but I wanted to make an assessment of the damage before I decide to buy a new generator or pay someone several hundred dollars to come out and tell me I need a new one. The logical step in that process is to open it up and take a look.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Everything from past the meter socket (dont know if theres anything before disconnect A, which is not in great shape) needs to be gone over, ripped out and redone.

No need for multiple disconnects (dis A, bulldog and knife switch), the fire hazard FPE panel should most definitely be ripped out and replaced, along with all the other panels.

Whatever circuits you want on the generator needs to be rewired to the generac branch circuit ATS, everything else should go in a new larger sub-panel(if you keep a disconnect ahead of it). Then the feed from this new panel goes to the utility side of the contactor. the output side of the contactor will go to the ATS main breaker as it is now, removing the feed to the other panel....

Theres just too much hackery here to try and salvage what youve got...

 

[Norcal]

The only thing that might be salvageable is the Westinghouse panelboard, as a shop panel but really it all needs to go & start over, it looks totally screwed up and that is the only it will get sorted out safely. hopefully no serious damage was done to the generator. This is not a time for band aid fixes

 

[American Locomotive]

The main power comes into a different room than the one that has the federal box, the Guardian box is in separate room from the others.

Okay, I worked out the power flow to the best of my ability:

Meter > Disconnect "A" > Splice to Disconnect B AND new 8 position sub panel

Disconnect B > Knife Switch (via spice in Federal Pacific Panel) bottom lugs

Knife Switch Center Lugs > Federal Pacific AND Westinghouse Panel AND that tiny 2 position panel with 12 gauge wire (this is a huge no-no, as those tiny little wires can be subject to the full 200A of your service.

Westinghouse Main Input Side > Red Disconnect in Westinghouse Panel > Generac Main Lugs (this effectively bypasses the transfer switch in your ATS panel)

So the ATS is connected entirely wrong, and directly lead to the blowing up of your generator. That little two position sub panel next to the knife switch is wired up extremely dangerously. If you look in the bottom of the FPE panel, there seems to be a HUGE bundle of abandoned wiring not hooked up to anything at the bottom.

While it makes sense to be worried about the cost of fixing the generator, at this moment you need to be more worried about fixing your electrical service. It's a really bad hodge-podge of random components connected together by someone who thought they were clever, but really had no idea what they were doing. The whole thing is a massive fire hazard and can lead to huge problems (which it already did)

Badger, if the Rotor and Stator is burnt is this something I could remove and have tested?

The rotor and stator can actually be tested in-situ with the right tools. The control board likely smoked because if the generator connected to the mains out of phase, it will effectively have 480v across it.

 

[Neggy]

and all we are seeing is the panels.... I can just imaging what the rest of the building looks like.

And you had an Electrician in there that did not tell you any of this?

I know why he ran away but he should have at least warned you

 

[killahog]

Okay, I worked out the power flow to the best of my ability:

Meter > Disconnect "A" > Splice to Disconnect B AND new 8 position sub panel

Disconnect B > Knife Switch (via spice in Federal Pacific Panel) bottom lugs

Knife Switch Center Lugs > Federal Pacific AND Westinghouse Panel AND that tiny 2 position panel with 12 gauge wire (this is a huge no-no, as those tiny little wires can be subject to the full 200A of your service.

Westinghouse Main Input Side > Red Disconnect in Westinghouse Panel > Generac Main Lugs (this effectively bypasses the transfer switch in your ATS panel)

So the ATS is connected entirely wrong, and directly lead to the blowing up of your generator. That little two position sub panel next to the knife switch is wired up extremely dangerously. If you look in the bottom of the FPE panel, there seems to be a HUGE bundle of abandoned wiring not hooked up to anything at the bottom.

While it makes sense to be worried about the cost of fixing the generator, at this moment you need to be more worried about fixing your electrical service. It's a really bad hodge-podge of random components connected together by someone who thought they were clever, but really had no idea what they were doing. The whole thing is a massive fire hazard and can lead to huge problems (which it already did)

The rotor and stator can actually be tested in-situ with the right tools. The control board likely smoked because if the generator connected to the mains out of phase, it will effectively have 480v across it.

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain this, I am going to print your suggestions and show it to an electrician , as far as the electrician that I had come over to program the generator in his defense the panel doors were closed and I don't think he would have had any idea how jacked up the wiring was. The westinghouse and the transfer switch are just inside the back door and this is what he saw . From the appearance of the wiring it might sound like a dump but the house is pretty nice and in a good location .

 

[Badgerstate]

Badger, if the Rotor and Stator is burnt is this something I could remove and have tested?

Yes, they can be tested. If you have a multimeter, you could test the brushes for continuity. If its says thats its open, the rotor is probably trash.
When I worked for Generac, I did repair and testing work on generators and if I would get an generator that wasnt generating power, I would pull the rotor and test it.

 

[Badgerstate]

Okay, I worked out the power flow to the best of my ability:

Meter > Disconnect "A" > Splice to Disconnect B AND new 8 position sub panel

Disconnect B > Knife Switch (via spice in Federal Pacific Panel) bottom lugs

Knife Switch Center Lugs > Federal Pacific AND Westinghouse Panel AND that tiny 2 position panel with 12 gauge wire (this is a huge no-no, as those tiny little wires can be subject to the full 200A of your service.

Westinghouse Main Input Side > Red Disconnect in Westinghouse Panel > Generac Main Lugs (this effectively bypasses the transfer switch in your ATS panel)

So the ATS is connected entirely wrong, and directly lead to the blowing up of your generator. That little two position sub panel next to the knife switch is wired up extremely dangerously. If you look in the bottom of the FPE panel, there seems to be a HUGE bundle of abandoned wiring not hooked up to anything at the bottom.

While it makes sense to be worried about the cost of fixing the generator, at this moment you need to be more worried about fixing your electrical service. It's a really bad hodge-podge of random components connected together by someone who thought they were clever, but really had no idea what they were doing. The whole thing is a massive fire hazard and can lead to huge problems (which it already did)

The rotor and stator can actually be tested in-situ with the right tools. The control board likely smoked because if the generator connected to the mains out of phase, it will effectively have 480v across it.

Im with you on this one. Forget trying to troubleshoot or fix it yourself, call a technician and get it fixed right. Especially when you tie a generator into your home via a transfer switch, you dont want to hope that you got it right.

 

[killahog]

Im with you on this one. Forget trying to troubleshoot or fix it yourself, call a technician and get it fixed right. Especially when you tie a generator into your home via a transfer switch, you dont want to hope that you got it right.

That is my intention, thank you.

 

[908Jim]

Respectfully, I think you are way too concerned about the generator and not nearly concerned enough about that home wiring. That setup is a disaster. If I was in your shoes, I'd take my chances without a generator for a few months and focus on having an electrician install a new panel and correctly wire the ATS. Worry about the generator later.

 

[ttpete]

Just as an aside, that knife switch is wired upside down. It needs to be installed so gravity tends to open the switch, not close it. Double throw switches must be mounted horizontally. I served aboard a WWII-era Navy ship that ran 240 V DC, and we had a big live front switchboard that controlled four 250 amp diesel generator sets.

 

[dcg9381]

Looks like there are decades of stuff here. I can't follow the wiring without a diagram.
What others have said - you have an ATS. It should NOT BE POSSIBLE to energize both the main and the generator circuit.

That being said, I recently saw a master electrician that installed a generator inlet into a main w/o an interlock. He said he was "doing it as a favor" to the home owner as he said he was not allowed to under-size a generator. I made him put an interlock kit on it.

 

[PoorUB]

I was a Generac tech in a past life.
That transfer switch is intended to be fed from a double breaker in the main panel. Then you take the loads you want energized in the home and pull the wires off the breakers in the main panel and run them over to the Generac transfer switch/breaker panel. It will not power the whole house, that is unless you can power the whole house on a 75 amp breaker!

I agree, what a mess! The original wiring in the home scares me. The extra breaker in the breaker panel makes me **** my head in wonder.

It is crazy as these generators are simple to install, but electricians would screw them up all the time. Then toss in a bunch of weird wiring to start with. I sold and installed many Generac generators from 2000 to 2012. Some customers had such a mess to start with I would not even give them a quote unless they wanted the sparky top update the panel. I had two electricians I would work with. If their boss tried to send out someone else I would turn them away. Give me my guys that knew what they were doing. I could give them 5 minutes of instruction and come back when it was done, and it was done right.

 

[Norcal]

I was a Generac tech in a past life.
That transfer switch is intended to be fed from a double breaker in the main panel. Then you take the loads you want energized in the home and pull the wires off the breakers in the main panel and run them over to the Generac transfer switch/breaker panel. It will not power the whole house, that is unless you can power the whole house on a 75 amp breaker!

I agree, what a mess! The original wiring in the home scares me. The extra breaker in the breaker panel makes me **** my head in wonder.

It is crazy as these generators are simple to install, but electricians would screw them up all the time. Then toss in a bunch of weird wiring to start with. I sold and installed many Generac generators from 2000 to 2012. Some customers had such a mess to start with I would not even give them a quote unless they wanted the sparky top update the panel. I had two electricians I would work with. If their boss tried to send out someone else I would turn them away. Give me my guys that knew what they were doing. I could give them 5 minutes of instruction and come back when it was done, and it was done right.

Please note that there is no 75A breaker available, standard rating jumps from 70A, to 80A.

 

[PoorUB]

Please note that there is no 75A breaker available, standard rating jumps from 70A, to 80A.

Ok, 80 amp then. I don't remember breaker sizes of the top of my head. I have other thinks to remember!

It still doesn't change the point I was making.

 

[nh_yota]

In summary, your ATS is wired in a manner that circumvents its designed safeguards.

 

[Justin James]

I will also mention that your transfer switch in in the "Emergency" position. Not sure when you took the picture, but for the contactor to be in the position it is in, the utility power should have been absent. Look at the area with the 2 ATS coils in the upper right of your Guardian panel. See the lever on the contactor, it's painted yellow. That should be in the upper position when there is normal utility voltage present, your is in the lower position, which would normally mean utility power has been lost and the home is on generator power. Many times with Generac panels the upper utility coil will burn up with a very nasty smell, but both of your coils look fine, so I have no idea why your contactor is in the emergency position.