General advice for first garage (ventilation, lighting, space utilization)

[dvg]

Hi all, I am building a house and it will have a 17'1x20' 2 car garage. I am looking for tips on setting this up so it will be a good space for working on cars. I will refer to the man-door side as the back of the garage and the car-door side as the front of the garage. Temperature swings from -30c to +30c throughout the year, I tend not to work on the car when its cold. When working on a car, I will back out the other car and park the car Im working on in the center.

Lighting
Right now I am thinking a pair of 4250 lumen led panels at the back of the garage. The panels are 2'x2' wide. Im thinking they should be centered 4' away from back of the garage and 5' away from the side wall. so 7' away from eachother center to center. In addition, I would have a pair of lights in the garage door opener. Im guessing the front of the garage will be somewhat dim but it should also have windows at the top of the door.

Insulation
I am going to be getting the walls insulated but not the door - I figure I can get one of those foam kits if I want door insulation

Floor
I am planning to apply an epoxymasters epoxy coat to the floor

Ventilation/Humidity control
I am not planning anything at this time.

Layout
I plan to have nothing on sides of garage due to limited space. Yard tools will be in a shed in backyard. I will have a tool chest, shelving, and garbage/recycling bins at the back of the garage. Workroom will be in the basement just down a flight of stairs from garage.
Im having the hose bib relocated to the side wall, as far toward the front of garage as possible - to free up some room at back of garage. The interior entry is at back of garage.

Does anyone have some tips or suggestions?

 

[brycez28]

Sounds like you have pretty similar temperature ranges as I do here in Wisconsin. I have a 1 car detached garage.

If I were you, I would add insulation to the ceiling, but you need to make sure you have proper ventilation for the insulation. That will help keep the garage cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter. I have a gable fan in my garage, I leave it on most of the summer and it pulls the heat out of the garage. Garage is typically 5-10 degrees cooler than outside temperature during the summer. I also use it to help evacuate welding/painting fumes. Make sure you have enough outlets around the garage to accommodate whatever you will be doing in there. It is easy to put them in now, not so much after everything is finished.

 

[dvg]

ah - I forgot to add that, the garage will come with spray foam insulation on the ceiling. I can add batt insulation on top of that for a couple hundred more. The garage is below a living space.The outlets is a great point - I keep forgetting about that.

 

[dvg]

My concern about something like a gable fan or other ventilation would be a decrease in temperature in the winter.

 

[tinmanwpk]

My concern about something like a gable fan or other ventilation would be a decrease in temperature in the winter.

Block off the fan during the winter.

 

[dvg]

My design appointment is soon, so will need to finalize ceiling fixtures and outlets then. I notice that a lot of people have the outlet mounted higher up so its right at workbench level, love that. Is my idea of focusing the light at the front of the room a good one, or should I maybe move the 2 light fixtures back some?

 

[KDXSR5]

My design appointment is soon, so will need to finalize ceiling fixtures and outlets then. I notice that a lot of people have the outlet mounted higher up so its right at workbench level, love that. Is my idea of focusing the light at the front of the room a good one, or should I maybe move the 2 light fixtures back some?

You will probably get a lot of odd shadowing with basically only one light source location. The garage door opener lights don't provide much at all. We have a lighting designer in the electrical forum on here that may have a layout that would work well for you.

 

[2CWG]

Check out this lighting thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289441

Lot of great example layouts with resultant light patterns and good discussion on what types of lights to use based on room height and finish. If there isn't a sample that matches your size you could scale back from a slightly larger space and maintain the overall pattern.

 

[KDXSR5]

Check out this lighting thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289441

Lot of great example layouts with resultant light patterns and good discussion on what types of lights to use based on room height and finish. If there isn't a sample that matches your size you could scale back from a slightly larger space and maintain the overall pattern.

That's the one!

 

[rsnip988]

^^ Excellent lighting info in that link!

Is the 17'x20' set in stone, I personally wouldn't want a garage to be any smaller than 20'x20' even for just parking much less doing any work... Of course I am a "collector" and the garage fills up faster than you think. I'd go as big as you are allowed by zone & budget, especially if you are designing it and building it! My current attached garage when I bought my house is 20'x20' and getting out of the car is sometimes a challenge.

You will never regret going bigger!

I mounted all of my outlets @4' so my rolling cabinets wouldn't block them no matter where I roll them around. As for workbench lighting I mount 4' shop lights directly over the bench area so it doesn't matter where the other lights are or if they're even on

 

[dvg]

Check out this lighting thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289441

Lot of great example layouts with resultant light patterns and good discussion on what types of lights to use based on room height and finish. If there isn't a sample that matches your size you could scale back from a slightly larger space and maintain the overall pattern.

So based on what I'm seeing here, maybe a rectangular led panel (2x4) running l parallel to garage walls would a more typical layout.

^^ Excellent lighting info in that link!

Is the 17'x20' set in stone, I personally wouldn't want a garage to be any smaller than 20'x20' even for just parking much less doing any work... Of course I am a "collector" and the garage fills up faster than you think. I'd go as big as you are allowed by zone & budget, especially if you are designing it and building it! My current attached garage when I bought my house is 20'x20' and getting out of the car is sometimes a challenge.

You will never regret going bigger!

I mounted all of my outlets @4' so my rolling cabinets wouldn't block them no matter where I roll them around. As for workbench lighting I mount 4' shop lights directly over the bench area so it doesn't matter where the other lights are or if they're even on

Unfortunately not, I actually looked at all the houses the builder offers and the largest garage was 18x20! I know its a small 2 car, but it's all that's available unfortunately so I'll have to make the best I can out of it.

 

[dvg]

Especially difficult because my g coupe has wide doors and fixed bucket seats!

 

[2CWG]

One 'take away' from Platonic Solid's the thread is that multiple light sources are needed to prevent casting harsh shadows onto your work surfaces. This is especially true if you're wrenching under the hood. Sadly, my garage currently has one large central light, which virtually guarantees that my own shadow is cast on everything I'm trying to work on.

Post #15 has some sample layouts for 2-car garages although may folks may balk at having that many lights in their space. Perhaps just consider the overall pattern and cut the density? Alternatively, you could use a simpler overhead layout and rely on task lights or something similar to fill the gaps. I'm stuck with that at the moment and it is annoying but viable.

Since you're building, also consider that adding any type of wiring/conduit is relatively cheap/easy at this point. Ethernet cable (internal and also for security cameras), alarm system wiring, speaker wires (surround or whole house), electrical outlets/switches (interior and exterior for Christmas lights and such), 220v where you need it and adding enough runs from the panel to avoid overloading circuits (point-of-use tankless water heater?) and even water spigots (utility sink or outdoor hookup).

I'm trying to retrofit an existing build and it isn't always cheap/easy to get a clean & professional-looking install once everything's closed-up, foam insulated and textured/painted.

Regardless of how any of these details go, congrats on the new place!

 

[dvg]

do you guys have any suggestions for led/fluorescent ceiling fixtures? It would be ideal if I could wire 2 to each octagon box, and if the wiring has some kind of cover to make it look neat.

Thoughts on these? https://www.superbrightleds.com/mor...e-light-4-long/2733/5791/#/tab/Specifications

Or maybe these..

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/48-...nk|affiliate|comm-junction||EN||||||10678183|

 

[dvg]

Alternatively...are there any flush mount fluorescent lights available which can be linked together? That would be the easiest solution.

 

[CNGsaves]

No need to build new house and garage in your climate (guessing it is Canada) and let builder put in **** "builder grade" uninsulated garage door. Those are throw away and not worth letting them install. Just get dollar credit (say $500) from builder and install your own insulated or hire a local garage door company.

Garage NEEDS more outlets that are on own 20A circuit.

With living space over garage, put in LOTS of lighting so that you'll never have to get in that space again. Also add dedicated electrical outlet (with switch on wall below) for a hanging natural gas heater. Plan route for black pipe steel pipe to connect to NG supply in house. Put another outlet in ceiling for a hanging electric reel (maybe middle near front of garage).

 

[dvg]

No need to build new house and garage in your climate (guessing it is Canada) and let builder put in **** "builder grade" uninsulated garage door. Those are throw away and not worth letting them install. Just get dollar credit (say $500) from builder and install your own insulated or hire a local garage door company.

Garage NEEDS more outlets that are on own 20A circuit.

With living space over garage, put in LOTS of lighting so that you'll never have to get in that space again. Also add dedicated electrical outlet (with switch on wall below) for a hanging natural gas heater. Plan route for black pipe steel pipe to connect to NG supply in house. Put another outlet in ceiling for a hanging electric reel (maybe middle near front of garage).

the builder is very much a "their way or the highway" builder so credits for exclusions are out of the question. I can however have the door upgrade to an insulated door for ~$900


However!

I dont work on the cars during the winter and it is actually preferable that they stay cold as heat cycling encourages rust IMO, lets all this icey salty **** build up every time I drive, and then thaw every time I park.

Additionally, I dont think the insulated garage adds much to resale so I am happy to go without it at this time

 

[Voi]

Alternatively...are there any flush mount fluorescent lights available which can be linked together? That would be the easiest solution.

I have the fixtures linked below in my garage/shop. They have a built in outlet on one end and a 5' power cord on the other. I bought them so the bulbs would be protected from my then 4 and 5 year old boys.

http://www.homedepot.ca/product/4-ft-t8-4l-32w-grid-shop-light/825098

They are not rated for flush mount as I recall.

What will the ceiling height be in your garage?

 

[dvg]

Ceiling outlets are preferable to wall outlets for electrical extension cord reels? I was figuring on wall mounting but I will take that into consideration.

Im not sure what the ceiling height will be. Ill drop by the model tonight and measure it. The ceiling is finished so I wont lose any height due to that later.

 

[dvg]

OK so now I am thinking I will get them to add a switched outlet on the ceiling. I will use this for a) The extension cord reel and b) to power the following led lights: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-4-ft-LED-Linkable-White-Shop-Light-54103161/205331022

I think I will get 7 of these and chain them together. Will upload a picture of the configuration later.

 

[rsnip988]

OK so now I am thinking I will get them to add a switched outlet on the ceiling. I will use this for a) The extension cord reel and b) to power the following led lights: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercial-Electric-4-ft-LED-Linkable-White-Shop-Light-54103161/205331022

I think I will get 7 of these and chain them together. Will upload a picture of the configuration later.

Using those LED's (which I hadn't seen before but love!) and just the 18x20 measurements, not knowing where any doors are or anything, I threw this together. I used the G2 coupe dimensions to approximate the Cars, may not be the best setup, but that's probably close to how I would mount them if I were putting them up...

 

[dvg]

Using those LED's (which I hadn't seen before but love!) and just the 18x20 measurements, not knowing where any doors are or anything, I threw this together. I used the G2 coupe dimensions to approximate the Cars, may not be the best setup, but that's probably close to how I would mount them if I were putting them up...

Thats awesome! Thanks for the picture..Would you be able to do another one if I give you more details?

What do you think of the light setup in the picture attached? Note I still have the included ceiling light at the center of the room if I find the center illimunation is lacking. I also figure I dont need much light at the back of the room, since I generally only work under the hood/ on the front end and I usually open the garage door so I have some room when I am working on the rear end.

The garage listed dimensions are actually 17'1x20 and the car is actually an infiniti g35 coupe- it is 6ft x 15 ft. The door is 33" from the right on the back wall. There is 119" before the "miter" on the left of the back wall.

Oh - and the ceiling is 9ft tall

 

[rsnip988]

Well, It's your garage and everyone uses their garage differently. I have found that Even if you almost always use the outside sunlight with the garage doors open there inevitably comes a time when you ABSOLUTELY HAVE to repair something in the dark or while it's raining. This ***** if you don't have any lights on that side of the garage or need the garage door shut. Only speaking from experience here...

You can always park in the middle, or back it in, however you want to work on it where you have the most lights placed... I like symmetry and equal light spacing personally, but you know better than anyone how your garage will be used!
6 of these http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...3001rw&cm_mmc=CJ-_-6147012-_-11210757&cj=true

that you posted earlier would give you 56 lumens per square foot which a lot of the members will say is too low, but if you aren't going to be doing any highly technical things or body/paint You should be ok with the 6... 8 would be better in my opinion equally spaced over the cars spots to give you 75 lu/sf... I like the 3 rows of 3, but didn;t think about the garage door opener for the first one. I added in the garage door opener and shaded garage door blockage also for thought

 

[dvg]

Well, It's your garage and everyone uses their garage differently. I have found that Even if you almost always use the outside sunlight with the garage doors open there inevitably comes a time when you ABSOLUTELY HAVE to repair something in the dark or while it's raining. This ***** if you don't have any lights on that side of the garage or need the garage door shut. Only speaking from experience here...

You can always park in the middle, or back it in, however you want to work on it where you have the most lights placed... I like symmetry and equal light spacing personally, but you know better than anyone how your garage will be used!
6 of these http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commerci...3001rw&cm_mmc=CJ-_-6147012-_-11210757&cj=true

that you posted earlier would give you 56 lumens per square foot which a lot of the members will say is too low, but if you aren't going to be doing any highly technical things or body/paint You should be ok with the 6... 8 would be better in my opinion equally spaced over the cars spots to give you 75 lu/sf... I like the 3 rows of 3, but didn;t think about the garage door opener for the first one. I added in the garage door opener and shaded garage door blockage also for thought

thanks for the new drawing

what do you think about this layout? It is somewhat hard to keep to the max 1 ft between lights (I dont want to splice the wires longer, want them to look nice

 

[rsnip988]

thanks for the new drawing

what do you think about this layout? It is somewhat hard to keep to the max 1 ft between lights (I dont want to splice the wires longer, want them to look nice

I would suggest having the builder install "light box" (3-4"round boxes) electrical wiring where you want the lights and just install an outlet instead of light fixtures if you are going with these plug in shop light type units...

I would look at these and just have them hard wired directly...

Originally Posted by Platonic Solid View Post( http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5206400#post5206400 )
Price for 10 2-lamp 4ft LED bypass fixtures:

18W James LED Bypass $10.99 x 20 = $220 + Free Shipping
(Be sure to get frosted lens)
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...Journal Board&txt=18W James LED Bypass $10.99



MaxLite LED Ready Strip Hsg $12.50 x 10 = $125.00 + $20 shipping

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo... Board&txt=MaxLite LED Ready Strip Hsg $12.50
Total = $365 / 10 = $36.50 per complete fixture (all tax and shipping included),

Buying them in bulk makes them cheaper and they "look better" IMHO... might be worth looking at? 4300 lu/unit vs 3200.

Sorry to give you even more options, I am horrible at making decisions because I overthink things when planning!

 

[rayra]

I would suggest several switched outlets on the ceiling so you can greatly expand the lighting at a later date.

I would also suggest getting the insulated door right off the bat. It's easy to do it your self with a kit or even foam board, for a lot cheaper than your builder's $900 upcharge. Makes a world of difference summer and winter. And more immediate difference than the walls, if the choice is one of the other.

And your overall dimensions sound damned small for a 2-car garage. Yoru cabinetry and storage solutions are going to have to be high up and off the floors / side walls. Some perimeter hgih cabinets hung from a french cleat system would give you a lot of space and leave whatever floor space you have free for an actual work center of some type.

 

[dvg]

I would suggest having the builder install "light box" (3-4"round boxes) electrical wiring where you want the lights and just install an outlet instead of light fixtures if you are going with these plug in shop light type units...

I would look at these and just have them hard wired directly...

Originally Posted by Platonic Solid View Post( http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=5206400#post5206400 )
Price for 10 2-lamp 4ft LED bypass fixtures:

18W James LED Bypass $10.99 x 20 = $220 + Free Shipping
(Be sure to get frosted lens)
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...Journal Board&txt=18W James LED Bypass $10.99



MaxLite LED Ready Strip Hsg $12.50 x 10 = $125.00 + $20 shipping

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo... Board&txt=MaxLite LED Ready Strip Hsg $12.50
Total = $365 / 10 = $36.50 per complete fixture (all tax and shipping included),

Buying them in bulk makes them cheaper and they "look better" IMHO... might be worth looking at? 4300 lu/unit vs 3200.

Sorry to give you even more options, I am horrible at making decisions because I overthink things when planning!

Those are flush mount non linkable right? I considered getting a bunch of boxes, but the cost adds up quick - 108 a pop. Thats why Im so fond of the linkable ones.

I would suggest several switched outlets on the ceiling so you can greatly expand the lighting at a later date.

I would also suggest getting the insulated door right off the bat. It's easy to do it your self with a kit or even foam board, for a lot cheaper than your builder's $900 upcharge. Makes a world of difference summer and winter. And more immediate difference than the walls, if the choice is one of the other.

And your overall dimensions sound damned small for a 2-car garage. Yoru cabinetry and storage solutions are going to have to be high up and off the floors / side walls. Some perimeter hgih cabinets hung from a french cleat system would give you a lot of space and leave whatever floor space you have free for an actual work center of some type.

I really cant imagine needing more than 9 of these guys. Ive been working for years in a 2 car garage with just a pair of A19 bulbs and the lights on the garage door openers.

My reasoning for getting the walls insulated is that it would be much harder to do later, whereas the garage door is fairly easy by comparison. I might insulate it later, well see. I dont want it being TOO warm in the winter, Ill see how it is.

I totally agree, there wont be anything substantial on the side walls at all. And I will certainly need to utilize the full height of the garage. I dont intend to use the garage as a workshop though - ie I will have a room downstairs for other projects (soldering, brake/shear stuff) - the garage is for working on the car directly only. I will also have a shed to store all garden stuff.

Right now I think I am going to get a good mastercraft toolbox, and some shelving/cabinets on the back wall of the garage, and thats about it

 

[dvg]

updated idea - yellow bolts are outlets

 

[padroo]

An overhead ceiling fan is nice in a garage giving you light and it will move air around the garage in the summer.

I don't think I would like your builder by the sounds of it, he is working for you and that makes you his boss.. jmo

 

[rsnip988]

updated idea - yellow bolts are outlets

LOL!
I am a "go big or go home" designer/worker, I put outlets every 4-5ft in my garage on 5 different circuits, so I may be a bad one to ask... I would want at least 2 outlets per wall (they're cheap and they don't cost much extra to run an extra 10ft per wall...)

I've never used the daisy-chain linked lights for anything but temporary or bench lighting. for anything permanent I prefer a flush mount or recessed. looks nicer with the wiring tucked into the ceiling.
The lights Platonic shared and I posted are LED 2 bulb flush mount selling for $16 per unit, $12.50 if you buy 10... ( http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc....ady-Linear-Utility-Strip-p/lss2xt8use4803.htm )
The LED Bypass bulbs are $11 each. ( https://www.beeslighting.com/ShoppingCart.asp )
So the whole LED unit with 2 bulbs is <$40 each, wiring tidily tucked into the ceiling. For the same price as the Work lights that chain together you are considering you get more light output(lumens) and a more professional permenant install. Unless you just like the look of chains & wires holding your lights together I would go with the flush mounts.

 

[dvg]

An overhead ceiling fan is nice in a garage giving you light and it will move air around the garage in the summer.

I don't think I would like your builder by the sounds of it, he is working for you and that makes you his boss.. jmo

I get it, but they are a mass produce kind of builder, not a custom house producer, they need to stick to that business model to keep costs down so I don't hold it against them

LOL!
I am a "go big or go home" designer/worker, I put outlets every 4-5ft in my garage on 5 different circuits, so I may be a bad one to ask... I would want at least 2 outlets per wall (they're cheap and they don't cost much extra to run an extra 10ft per wall...)

I've never used the daisy-chain linked lights for anything but temporary or bench lighting. for anything permanent I prefer a flush mount or recessed. looks nicer with the wiring tucked into the ceiling.
The lights Platonic shared and I posted are LED 2 bulb flush mount selling for $16 per unit, $12.50 if you buy 10... ( http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc....ady-Linear-Utility-Strip-p/lss2xt8use4803.htm )
The LED Bypass bulbs are $11 each. ( https://www.beeslighting.com/ShoppingCart.asp )
So the whole LED unit with 2 bulbs is <$40 each, wiring tidily tucked into the ceiling. For the same price as the Work lights that chain together you are considering you get more light output(lumens) and a more professional permenant install. Unless you just like the look of chains & wires holding your lights together I would go with the flush mounts.

I agree with you on the flush mount...it definitely looks better it just costs so much (for all the wiring) I'll think about it

As for outlets yeah I don't want to go more than 4, I have extension cords after all

 

[dvg]

Does anyone have pictures of these installed? Can they be installed in any position relative to the octagon box? Or does the octagon box need to be in a specific place? Ie middle/on the end)

LOL!
I am a "go big or go home" designer/worker, I put outlets every 4-5ft in my garage on 5 different circuits, so I may be a bad one to ask... I would want at least 2 outlets per wall (they're cheap and they don't cost much extra to run an extra 10ft per wall...)

I've never used the daisy-chain linked lights for anything but temporary or bench lighting. for anything permanent I prefer a flush mount or recessed. looks nicer with the wiring tucked into the ceiling.
The lights Platonic shared and I posted are LED 2 bulb flush mount selling for $16 per unit, $12.50 if you buy 10... ( http://www.ledlightingwholesaleinc....ady-Linear-Utility-Strip-p/lss2xt8use4803.htm )
The LED Bypass bulbs are $11 each. ( https://www.beeslighting.com/ShoppingCart.asp )
So the whole LED unit with 2 bulbs is <$40 each, wiring tidily tucked into the ceiling. For the same price as the Work lights that chain together you are considering you get more light output(lumens) and a more professional permenant install. Unless you just like the look of chains & wires holding your lights together I would go with the flush mounts.

 

[dvg]

Ended up getting 4 octagon boxes and 4 outlets