General observations about brushed vs brushless tools

[Ign]

A recent thread about M18 Fuel (Fuel=brushless) portaband vs a V28 portaband got me thinking about some observations I've had. Some are quick to dismiss the V28 simply because it's "old," and maybe that's valid. My position is that those portabands are built like tanks, but I don't have any direct personal way to compare it with the **** new Fuel so I didn't want to clog the poster's thread with this below:

For me, I already have the V/M28 portaband and the M18 Fuel is hella expensive, so it makes zero sense for me to invest in it now. Likewise, since the OP does not have any M28, it probably makes zero sense for him to go that direction.

Now, speaking in greater generalities and my observations regarding some marketing claims and voltage comparsions (none of which are direct analogies - - this is only intended to be food for thought as I think some people blindly believe info on the new products)

1 - an Ecoboost comparison is perfect because Ford wanted V6 economy with V8 power and towing capability. Likewise, Milwaukee claims their M12 Fuel hex impact driver is comparable to 18 volt drivers (although they don't say which drivers). I can tell you from personal experience that my "old" brushed 2650 M18 1/4" hex impact is noticeably more powerful than my 2453 M12 Fuel, regardless of batteries, XC, 4.0, whatever, I used every combination.

Milwaukee says: "The M12 FUEL 1/4" Hex Impact Driver offers fastening speed comparable to 18-volt impact drivers." Actually, they say "speed," whatever that means. But it does not sink self-drilling sheetmetal screws as fast, no way around it.
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2453-20

Not a parallel example because it's impact drivers vs portabands, and M12 vs M18.

2. People had really high expectations of the Fuel circular saws, but this discussion really kinda opened my eyes in two ways: Makita is killing it with brushed 36V, and LordDiesel states he still often prefers his "old" Dewalt 36V over a Fuel 6.5":
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=278119

Really a worthwhile read of "dinosaurs" vs new technology -- not to say the Makita is a dinosaur as it's new on the market.

Not a perfect example as it's circular saws, not portabands, and 36V vs 18V

3. If Fuel is so spectacular, why is Milwaukee still updating brushed tools, like their Sawzall. Of all the brushed tools that might need an update, why would it be the Sawzall? Interesting discussion here on Toolguyd, rumors of brushless not holding up well to drops:
http://toolguyd.com/milwaukee-m18-sawzall-reciprocating-saw-2621/

Something makes me feel that much like early lithium-ion, Milwaukee doesn't have complete confidence in their brushless tools yet.

Not a perfect example as it's recip saws, not portabands, and just M18.

4. There have also been rumors on this board of brushless tools not tolerating wet environments, specifically impact wrenches. I'm not going to search for the thread where I read that as it would take me hours to find it.

Not a perfect example as it's impact wrenches, not portabands, and I have no supporting information.

5. Tools that would seemingly make a TON of sense to be brushless like the M12 2438 polisher (which I own) were released as brushed, well after Fuel technology was in full swing. Why??
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2438-20

Not a perfect example as it's a polisher, not a portaband, and merely my own skepticism.

6. I have the Milwaukee Fuel M18 4.5" grinder
http://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/cordless/2780-20

To read some of the online reviews on this, you'd think it's as good or nearly as good as a corded grinder. No. No way. It's a useful tool, but it's still a cordless grinder. It spins slower and has less power. Honestly I can't tell any difference in power between the M18 Fuel grinder and my "old" V28 grinder.

Not a perfect example because it's grinders, not portabands, and only my opinion.

I still own many Fuel tools and will continue to buy them. I am not a brushless hater and I am not afraid of new (power tool) technology. If anything, I'm an early adopter.

I believe brushless is the future, really I do. I also believe that people believe marketing claims way too easily.

 

[mrvm]

Great info and thanks for sharing your experience with the Milwaukee power tools. I bought a few Fuel tools to update my several year old brushed Makitas: the M18 Fuel impact driver/impact wrenches/hammer drill and M12 Fuel impact driver/hammer drill. The Fuel tools perform great but I did have to exchange a couple of things: charger had faulty finished charge light, M18 impact wrench did not run smooth, and a M12 impact had high pitch squeal. Questionable QC compared to my trusty older brushed Makitas. Facinated by all the M12/M18 accessories like floodlight/lantern, etc

 

[TomB19]

In the past, there have been problems with batteries. Naturally, most people seem to blame the batteries but the issue was battery management.

Brushless and microprocessor control allows for keeping batteries within their usage profile. This will extend the life of Li-Ion batteries tremendously.

For low consumption devices, there's no need for FUEL but for big hitters like circular saws, etc., FUEL will allow you to get a lot of work done and still get the maximum life out of your batts.

 

[RedRabbit]

In the past, there have been problems with batteries. Naturally, most people seem to blame the batteries but the issue was battery management.

Brushless and microprocessor control allows for keeping batteries within their usage profile. This will extend the life of Li-Ion batteries tremendously.

For low consumption devices, there's no need for FUEL but for big hitters like circular saws, etc., FUEL will allow you to get a lot of work done and still get the maximum life out of your batts.

Makita chargers also help extend battery life by cooling the battery and charging it within spec via a microprocessor.

 

[Fusion13]

Brushless is more for battery runtime then power...But it does not help a whole lot in every application...The fuel sawzall and dewalt's recip saw in tools in action comparison were very close in runtime and the milwaukee was brushless...

Brushless is all the craze now and many people want the latest and greatest tools and will spend the big extra money for brushless no matter if it's better or not

Many people say Dewalt and others are way behind Milwaukee in brushless tools, you have to wonder is it because they are slow or taking their time to make sure it's worth the investment to build an all new tool that's barely better then the old brushed version???

Besides runtime, my DCD 985 will hang with any brushless drill power wise anyday/anytime

 

[Bremon]

If we compare Ford's fuel economy half of their power/economy balance to Milwaukee's runtime, I would say Ford failed but Milwaukee succeeded. I do agree that they are both trying to do more with less.

2) I would say that the Fuel 7.25 seems to be a much better saw than the 6.5" based on what I've read about capability, but I have nothing to benchmark that against. The fact that it can basically hang with the big boys, despite I would think the Makita 2x18 being a better saw, running one battery instead of two speaks volumes in my mind.

3) Milwaukee is still updating their brushed version because entry and mid-level budgets are a huge part of the market. Different tools for different price points, and they can't let their entry level stagnate. Eventually I'm sure the technology will trickle down like it seems to in most markets. For everyone that wants a Cadillac or Audi there's a handful of guys who are happy with/can only afford a Chevy or VW.

4) I can't speak to that, but I could see it being the case. I will say that for work I use electric proportioning equipment that runs on a brushless motor and those machines have tens of thousands of hours on it running in all manner of conditions, and is one of the most bulletproof pieces of equipment on any site I'm on. Again, the equipment is apples and oranges, but the technology behind them is the same concept.

5. Price points I would think. Large high-draw pieces seem to be the first to get switched over. Also wouldn't put it past a manufacturer to release a brushed version, only to release a brushless model at a higher price point based on the demand of the brushed model. M12 Hackzall situation fits that bill I believe.

6. This is really one of those cases where some tools, while coming close, still just can't replace a cord. I have a Fuel grinder as well, and while it suits my needs, I'm not a power user of such a tool, and grinders have major power requirements.


All in all, I agree, that the writing is on the wall with brushless, and it's the way the market is heading. Thus far I've been happy with my M12 and M18 Fuel tools. I can agree that just because something is the latest, doesn't mean it's the greatest. There's definitely something to be said for tried-and-true. I'd be much more comfortable buying a '95 Silverado and knowing I could keep it on the road to 500k kms than a new 15 with cylinder deactivation, DI, VVT etc. That said, I would still recommend an M18 Fuel over a M28 model to the majority of users because that's where the R&D money, and platform support are. M18 is something I can walk into most big box stores and buy a new battery for, I can't say the same for M28 (at least not where I live). Looking online, I see them for $180 Canadian. I can get 4.0 AH M18 batteries for barely over half that.

When Milwaukee starts showing more love and putting some updates into the M28 platform, I would recommend them more, but until that happens, M18 seems here to stay, while M28s future seems uncertain. Of course, for the guys that already have M28 batteries, it maybe makes more sense. I can only speak to my experience.

That being said, for the sake of the heavy duty users out there, I hope (and suspect) Milwaukee will update batteries, and show the line some love, because I don't think an 18v lineup is the be-all/end-all for all situations.

Thanks for the thread Ign, it was a good read.

 

[ZRH`]

Brushless is all the craze now and many people want the latest and greatest tools and will spend the big extra money for brushless no matter if it's better or not

Many people say Dewalt and others are way behind Milwaukee in brushless tools, you have to wonder is it because they are slow or taking their time to make sure it's worth the investment to build an all new tool that's barely better then the old brushed version???

Actually remember all the cordless tool sales around christmas? The Dewalt and Milwaukee ones anyway, those were retailers cleaning out stock on the newest battery+brushed versions, now most of that stuff has been replaced by brushless (Dewalt XR/Milwaukee Fuel/Makita LXT). Interesting to note that Hitachi has had cordless/brushless tools since 2012.

 

[TOOL FANATIK]

Actually remember all the cordless tool sales around christmas? The Dewalt and Milwaukee ones anyway, those were retailers cleaning out stock on the newest battery+brushed versions, now most of that stuff has been replaced by brushless (Dewalt XR/Milwaukee Fuel/Makita LXT). Interesting to note that Hitachi has had cordless/brushless tools since 2012.

I'm pretty sure Panasonic was the first to bring brushless to power tools...saw a commercial not too long ago for conair, and their new brushless hairdryer...isn't it ironic? lol

 

[Sal Bandini]

Festool was brushless long before 2012 and I believe they may have had first brushless driver.

Any of you into RC tuff, like cars or planes? If so, you might know how superior brushless is to DC. It is much more efficient and can deliver more power in smaller design.

 

[honcho]

brushless offers some clear advantages in SOME applications. As the OP pointed out, the use of brushless is not a clear home run in all cordless tool applications. I'll upgrade as I replace tools, but if I have something that gets the job done, no need to spend money on the latest and greatest just yet!

With regard to the remote control hobby world, brushless makes so many electric planes, helicopters, drones possible due to light weight, precision speed control and efficient use of battery power.

 

[Sal Bandini]

Brushed RC is in many cars and planes. Brushless just takes it to another level, at a cost of course.

Brushless will ALWAYS beat brushed at the same voltage. I don't know of any application where brushed would be preferred. It's when you start comparing different voltages where the issues come up. 18V brushed versus 12V brushless is not so clear cut. Yes, you probably have more power in the 18V but not so much more, and then you have to look at weight disadvantage. For some the extra power is worth the extra weight. And then there is also cost.

Now comparing 18V brushless saw to 36V brushed saw, well that is twice the voltage so I wouldn't even compare those two.

Agreed if you have tools no need to replace them.