Generator Backfeed

[DocPhilMD]

Hello newbie here. I have heard great things about this forum. I have a generator question.

So I know it is frowned upon to backfeed the generator into the house but I have no other options until I get the automatic standby generator put in.

In my old house, the dryer outlet had 4 prongs. So I fabbed up a wire with the correct plug and attached the other end to 4 pronged plug that would fit into the generator. The extension cord was 4 wires as well.

My new house has a different setup. The dryer plug and the welder plug in the garage are both 3 prongs. So my question is this....

Can I use the existing cord and just change out the heads or do I need to buy a different extension cord (3 wires) and new heads? Obviously I would need the head that fits the welder plug or dryer plug. Which end would be recommended for the generator.

Finally what gauge wire? 10/3?

Thanks in advance for the help

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The answer you are going to get from most everyone here is NO, NO, and more NO.

Install a proper interlock on your circuit breaker panel (you must have a main breaker in the panel to do this however) and then run a proper sized 4 wire to an outside generator inlet box.

You then have a safe, legal means of supplying the generator to your house.

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Dryer and welder plugs are different. Welder plug is a NEMA 6-50 and has two flat blades and a ground pin (D shaped) and there are two hot wires and a ground supplying it. No neutral, so you cannot derive 120v from it. A dryer plug is a NENA 10-30, which is two flat blades, which are two hots, and a L shaped blade which is a neutral and ground combined back to the panel, which is to provide 120v for the dryer controls and motor, and 240v for the heating elements. Code doesn't allow this any longer that I know of, and you certainly should not use it for a generator connection.

You ask which end should be used for the generator......... The response being, what kind of generator do you have, and what kind of connectors do you have on it?

Charles

 

[Badattitude]

Actually you have 3 options:

1) Providing your portable generator has sufficient capacity to meet your demands, then what Charles suggested above is advised

2) Use separate extensions cords from the portable to what ever device...fridge. space heater, lighting, etc... you want to power up. Again, pay attention to wattage especially @ start up

3) Find a Motel for a temporary shelter during the outage until you get your automatic system installed

 

[wyliesdiesels]

OP- there is no safe way to do this with the setup u have.

If do rig up some way to backfeed your panel, then use it during an outage and forget to turn off the main, u could kill a lineman.

What brand/model generator do u have?

What brand/model main service panel do u have?

Dryer and welder plugs are different. Welder plug is a NEMA 6-50 and has two flat blades and a ground pin (D shaped) and there are two hot wires and a ground supplying it. No neutral, so you cannot derive 120v from it. A dryer plug is a NENA 10-30, which is two flat blades, which are two hots, and a L shaped blade which is a neutral and ground combined back to the panel, which is to provide 120v for the dryer controls and motor, and 240v for the heating elements. Code doesn't allow this any longer that I know of, and you certainly should not use it for a generator connection.

You ask which end should be used for the generator......... The response being, what kind of generator do you have, and what kind of connectors do you have on it?

Charles

 

[DocPhilMD]

Thanks for the help guys.
I understand but if you shut off the main breaker and are careful not to touch the hot end of the plug what is the worst that can happen?

I understand that if you forget to shut off the main then you can injure/kill someone but I never have or will do that.

I am honestly asking this question so I know. Thanks

 

[rsanter]

Yes you can do that
It's just not the best way to do that.

You also need to be careful at how much you are trying to power off the generator

Bob

 

[wyliesdiesels]

U simply cant do it with either outlet u have regardless of the interlock issue. They arent the right configuration as Charles already pointed out.

U need to get a generator inlet as well as an interlock for your main service panel.

What brand of panel do u have?

Can u snap some pics and post them here?

What model generator do u have?

 

[Badattitude]

I understand that if you forget to shut off the main then you can injure/kill someone but I never have or will do that.

I am honestly asking this question so I know. Thanks

Suppose someone inadvertently turns it back on without you knowing? It has happened

Better to be safe and not take that chance

 

[theoldwizard1]

So I know it is frowned upon to backfeed the generator into the house but I have no other options until I get the automatic standby generator put in.

Assuming you have breaker panel (not glass fuses) YOU DO HAVE ANOTHER OPTION, even if all of the breaker slots are in use !

Combine 4 - 120V slot (near the main) into 2 using tandem breakers. This will give you 2 empty slot to install a 240 breaker and a generator interlock kit.

Run 4 wire cable to an outside generator hook (typical 20A or 30A). You are done.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . post up picture of main electrical panel, that way GJ Sparkies can give you SAFE SOLUTION for an interlock breaker.

With heavy duty welder extension cord, you could backfeed to the interlock breaker and at least be safe.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Thanks guys.

I do agree that I should go the safest route. I will get a pic of the breaker panel today when I get home.

Can I ask how to attach pics here? I can attach one of the dryer plug and the welder outlet. Can I just convert the welder outlet to a convenience outlet? No plans on running a welder any time soon.

As for the generator, I kind of have one and I kind of don't. So the story is that we lost power over the past few days. We got it back but there is another storm coming and I'm worried.

My generator is a generac 4000 Briggs and Straton. I was powering a fridge and a space heater with it over the weekend. I happened to be awake at 1 am and heard the exhaust note change. So I went outside and there was a 6 inch flame coming out of the exhaust! My research tells me that it is running lean and the combustion temps are too high. So I am in the market for a new generator.

Maybe you guys can give me some advice on a generator and how to construct a safe outlet from the current setup.

So I currently have power but may not in the next 24 hours.

 

[DocPhilMD]

I just wanted to thank you guys for the help so far. I am a budding DIYer and I do want it to be correct and safe.

I will get the pics later

 

[LS6 Tommy]

I'm glad you're interested in doing the "right" thing as opposed to just doing what is "possible". I know it doesn't really have much bearing on the issue if you're replacing it, but could you clarify the info on your generator? My recollection is that Generac does not use Briggs engines. Their engines are all manufactured in-house. Then again, I could be wrong.

Tommy

 

[DocPhilMD]

I'm glad you're interested in doing the "right" thing as opposed to just doing what is "possible". I know it doesn't really have much bearing on the issue if you're replacing it, but could you clarify the info on your generator? My recollection is that Generac does not use Briggs engines. Their engines are all manufactured in-house. Then again, I could be wrong.

Tommy

It is an way older model. I'm pretty sure it is Briggs but I can check when I get home. Perhaps the newer ones don't?

 

[DocPhilMD]

Here is the panel

 

[Pwrgeek]

With a panel that crowded you're going to have a hard time freeing up a space for a proper interlock kit. Do you use the welder outlet? If not I would remove that and move the two tandems at top right to that position. Then install the breaker that used to be used for that outlet in the top right position. Then you will need an interlock kit from square d. I believe the part number is QOCGK2C. Also you will need an inlet (reliance PB30 or similar) and to change the end on your cord to the corresponding outlet. An even better way to do all of this is to add a new sub panel with those loads you want on the generator fed from it so you don't have to play breaker bingo in the dark trying to get the load balance right but that process is too complicated to describe typing on my phone.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ishiboo]

That panel looks like a pre-CTL panel (a guess, and maybe the CTL units allow tandems only on the bottom?), so it's going to condense things but it looks like you do have room to put two more tandems in, freeing up the top right two breaker spaces for a 30A double pole breaker. Use the Square D interlock kit and you'll be up and running. You have a QO panel - perhaps the best residential panel money can buy.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...r-Main-Breaker-Load-Centers-QOCGK2C/203046553

Make sure you have the correct series for that. It depends on the spacing of the main breaker and the top right breaker to be correct for this to work.

As mentioned, a 3-wire dryer plug has no neutral and fortunately CANNOT be used for doing this even though you want to disregard all common sense and safety regulations and do it anyway.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

So I know it is frowned upon to backfeed the generator into the house but I have no other options until I get the automatic standby generator put in.

You're getting lots of really great advice and direction here.

I again want to echo the common sentiment: DO NOT backfeed. It can and has killed linemen.

That said, you don't have to wait until the automatic standby generator installed. I don't think you do!

Have the appropriate transfer switch installed immediately and start using your generator right away. YOu should be able to use the same transfer switch when the automatic standby generator is installed.

Please don't toss that Briggs & Stratton generator. Its a quality product made by a wonder Wisconsin based company. Get it to a Briggs dealer and they should be able to adjust it properly for you so it works great.

Keep us posted.

 

[NJ20]

I have the exact same panel but you are going to need to free it up. Here's a pic of mine with the interlock kit. You will need 1 30 amp double pole breaker on the right side all the way to the top.

 

[HOTFR8]

Another alternative would be to use the Gen Set to run the basics until you have every thing set up. What I did here was run a caravan inlet on the outside of my shed and a double power point on the inside. You simply run what you need from the dedicated power point.

Mind you I have Solar Power with battery back up and the invertor automatically disconnects the grid for me. Gen Set is a back up on really bad fire days so I can run the pumps etc.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Your box is kind of full ! You have several 2 pole loads (like the water pump). What is connected to (#5:#7), (#6:#9), (#13:#15), (#14:#16), (#18:#20), (#26:#28) ? I don't think I have ever seen that many 2 pole breakers in on box !

The 2 breakers on the top left are "candidates" to be combined with 2 other breakers using tandem breakers, just like the the top 2 breakers on the right hand side. It can be done, it will just take a little bit of work.



If you are not familiar with electric load centers (a.k.a. breaker boxes) now is NOT the time to start ! Parts and labor to install should be $300-$500, maybe less depending on the electrician you higher.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have the exact same panel but you are going to need to free it up. Here's a pic of mine with the interlock kit. You will need 1 30 amp double pole breaker on the right side all the way to the top.

Perfect !

The way it works is a follows

• Turn the main breaker OFF
• Slide the gray metal plate UP and hold it
• Turn the generator breaker (top right in this case) ON

You turn OFF the breakers to circuits you can live without.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Thanks for all this helpful information. I appreciate it.

The ice storm in Michigan is currently underway.

I am hoping we don't lose power. But if we do, at least I am armed with all of this awesome information.

Can I ask how to chose which breakers to make a tandem? Also, how difficult is this and running a 4 wire cord to the outlet? Any threads on an install of this and a 30 amp breaker? Thanks!

Doc

 

[ishiboo]

Thanks for all this helpful information. I appreciate it.

The ice storm in Michigan is currently underway.

I am hoping we don't lose power. But if we do, at least I am armed with all of this awesome information.

Can I ask how to chose which breakers to make a tandem? Also, how difficult is this and running a 4 wire cord to the outlet? Any threads on an install of this and a 30 amp breaker? Thanks!

Doc

And two breakers of a like type (15 and 20 amp commonly available) can be combined. I would find those first, and also look to see if you can do it using particular circuits to avoid having to extend any wires.

I think it's a fairly easy process, though you must be comfortable working in a live panel. If you are uncomfortable, you might look at hiring someone or seeing if the power company will provide a disconnect/reconnect for free. Or, stop paying your bill and you'll get a free disconnect after a while... do the work then

 

[DocPhilMD]

Okay guys. Thanks for all this great advice. I have come up with a decent plan. Let me see what you think

1)Delete the 100A welder breaker.
2)move the two breakers in the upper right to this spot
3)install 30 A double pole breaker in the upper right
4)fish a new 4 wire cord through by attaching to exisiting welder outlet cable
5)wire into 30 amp breaker
6)wire into plug in garage.

A few questions....
1)Can I shut off the main breaker when doing this to eliminate chance of electricution?
2)When I wire in the new 4 wire cord, simply attach the neutral to the left side of the panel, ground to the right side and then wire in the two hots correct?
3)How do I move the breakers down? Do I need to disconnect, move and reconnect or just move them down?

I will plan on getting the PB30 box but can you tell me for sure which interlock kit I need (the one that you got) NJ20?

Also, any advice on which cord to get?

 

[Syberia]

I think it's a fairly easy process, though you must be comfortable working in a live panel.

Pardon me if this sounds dumb, but can't he just turn the main off?

 

[DocPhilMD]

Pardon me if this sounds dumb, but can't he just turn the main off?

My thought exactly. I'm not scared to sound dumb if this is dumb but I was wondering if I could work by shutting off the main

 

[Zeke]

OP- there is no safe way to do this with the setup u have.

If do rig up some way to backfeed your panel, then use it during an outage and forget to turn off the main, u could kill a lineman.

What brand/model generator do u have?

What brand/model main service panel do u have?

While I do fully respect the dangers involved I just can't fathom a POCO worker not knowing how to deal with power back fed to the grid. Having once been a pole climber myself I have a bi of an idea of the multiple layered precautions taken.

That doesn't make back feeding a bit right, but I do wonder about all the posts cautioning. I promise you that if I was up on the pole I'd constantly be monitoring for potential.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

While I do fully respect the dangers involved I just can't fathom a POCO worker not knowing how to deal with power back fed to the grid. Having once been a pole climber myself I have a bi of an idea of the multiple layered precautions taken.

That doesn't make back feeding a bit right, but I do wonder about all the posts cautioning. I promise you that if I was up on the pole I'd constantly be monitoring for potential.

I've never been a pole climber. I've worked in operational risk for a large bank and have seen so many situations that were supposed "fail safe" ... well ... fail and fail miserably.

When there is loss of life risk, I just can't see justifying the risk of a so-called "honest mistake" occurring. Anyone could walk up to the panel and flip the main breaker on thinking that is what was needed to get power for a circuit that was purposely turned off.

Often when the power goes out the weather is absolutely horse **** and I presume the pole climber has a hard enough time doing his or her job without someone backfeeding the circuit. Why unnecessarily risk someone's life because you're too cheap or too lazy or don't want to go through the effort to set your electrical service up correctly to protect the circuit from backfeeding?

I've also heard that backfeeding is illegal in some to many jurisdictions. Zeke, as a pole climber, what would you do if you encountered a backfed line? Are you required to report it to a supervisor who would inform law enforcement?

With so many options available to hook up a generator safely (interconnect lockout as shown, properly wired transfer switch, I've seen a device that goes behind the meter with a receptacle and a lockout, etc.) why would anyone have any desire to backfeed the system??????

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That panel looks like a pre-CTL panel (a guess, and maybe the CTL units allow tandems only on the bottom?), so it's going to condense things but it looks like you do have room to put two more tandems in, freeing up the top right two breaker spaces for a 30A double pole breaker. Use the Square D interlock kit and you'll be up and running. You have a QO panel - perhaps the best residential panel money can buy.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...r-Main-Breaker-Load-Centers-QOCGK2C/203046553

Make sure you have the correct series for that. It depends on the spacing of the main breaker and the top right breaker to be correct for this to work.

As mentioned, a 3-wire dryer plug has no neutral and fortunately CANNOT be used for doing this even though you want to disregard all common sense and safety regulations and do it anyway.

U got that backwards. A 3-wire dryer cord doesnt have an EGC. Instead the grounding is done through the neutral.

Okay guys. Thanks for all this great advice. I have come up with a decent plan. Let me see what you think

1)Delete the 100A welder breaker.
2)move the two breakers in the upper right to this spot
3)install 30 A double pole breaker in the upper right
4)fish a new 4 wire cord through by attaching to exisiting welder outlet cable
5)wire into 30 amp breaker
6)wire into plug in garage.

A few questions....
1)Can I shut off the main breaker when doing this to eliminate chance of electricution?
2)When I wire in the new 4 wire cord, simply attach the neutral to the left side of the panel, ground to the right side and then wire in the two hots correct?
3)How do I move the breakers down? Do I need to disconnect, move and reconnect or just move them down?

I will plan on getting the PB30 box but can you tell me for sure which interlock kit I need (the one that you got) NJ20?

Also, any advice on which cord to get?

If u will be using a 30a breaker, then u need 10/4 cordage...For the wire from the inlet to the panel, u would need 10/3 NM-b w/ grd(ground).

What model generator do u have? (if u posted this already, i missed it)....

Pardon me if this sounds dumb, but can't he just turn the main off?

My thought exactly. I'm not scared to sound dumb if this is dumb but I was wondering if I could work by shutting off the main

Yes he can.

 

[DocPhilMD]

U got that backwards. A 3-wire dryer cord doesnt have an EGC. Instead the grounding is done through the neutral.



If u will be using a 30a breaker, then u need 10/4 cordage...For the wire from the inlet to the panel, u would need 10/3 NM-b w/ grd(ground).

What model generator do u have? (if u posted this already, i missed it)....





Yes he can.

Can you clarify the difference in need of 10/4 to 10/3 NM-b w grd and do I need two different wires?

I have that old briggs and stratton 4000 watt generator.

I know a guy on here didn't want me to dump it but the flames out of the exhaust was the last straw. Its got a bad oil sensor, two flat tires and probably needs a carb rebuilt or cleaned at least. New air filter, fuel filter. It will be more than its worth to repair it.

Probably will use it as an excuse to get a new one. I'm open to suggestions on a new unit. What models do you guys like or is it Ford vs Chevy?

 

[Pwrgeek]

Okay guys. Thanks for all this great advice. I have come up with a decent plan. Let me see what you think



1)Delete the 100A welder breaker.

2)move the two breakers in the upper right to this spot

3)install 30 A double pole breaker in the upper right

4)fish a new 4 wire cord through by attaching to exisiting welder outlet cable

5)wire into 30 amp breaker

6)wire into plug in garage.



A few questions....

1)Can I shut off the main breaker when doing this to eliminate chance of electricution?

2)When I wire in the new 4 wire cord, simply attach the neutral to the left side of the panel, ground to the right side and then wire in the two hots correct?

3)How do I move the breakers down? Do I need to disconnect, move and reconnect or just move them down?



I will plan on getting the PB30 box but can you tell me for sure which interlock kit I need (the one that you got) NJ20?



Also, any advice on which cord to get?

1. Yes but there will still be live parts inside the panel that are exposed when the cover is off. If you have never worked inside a panel before then with one this busy please hire someone.

2. There will either be one or two common bars inside your panel. If there is only one then both neutral and ground run to that bar. If there are two then the one with white wires already on it is neutral and should get the white wire out of the new cord. The one with green /bare wires is ground and should get the bare / green out of the new cord.

3. Odds are when you get the cover off of your panel the wires for those two breakers (there will be a total of four) will be intertwined with others running to other breakers on that side of the panel. You'll probably have to take them loose to get them moved around.

The part number I specified in my earlier post is the one that square d specifies for your panel type.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[checkthisout]

Can you clarify the difference in need of 10/4 to 10/3 NM-b w grd and do I need two different wires?

I have that old briggs and stratton 4000 watt generator.

I know a guy on here didn't want me to dump it but the flames out of the exhaust was the last straw. Its got a bad oil sensor, two flat tires and probably needs a carb rebuilt or cleaned at least. New air filter, fuel filter. It will be more than its worth to repair it.

Probably will use it as an excuse to get a new one. I'm open to suggestions on a new unit. What models do you guys like or is it Ford vs Chevy?

If you don't need to run any 240V stuff, get a 3-5k inverter generator. Since they are 120V only, you'll need to wire the hots together at your plug to power both sides of panel.

Fuel consumption and noise are cut waaaaaayyyyyyyyyy down. You'll be able to leave it run while you're at work so the wife and kids can still make coffee and hot chocolate but not have to worry about gassing up the genny.

I have a Yamaha 3000 ISEB.

 

[DocPhilMD]

1. Yes but there will still be live parts inside the panel that are exposed when the cover is off. If you have never worked inside a panel before then with one this busy please hire someone.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have swapped out breakers in this panel before? Does that qualify?

 

[Badattitude]

DocPhilMD

Your moniker reads like you're a Dr...is this your profession?

I ask because: if you were capable of performing brain surgery, would you perform this procedure on yourself?

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. There are certain jobs that should be hired out and this is one of them IMO. And please don't take this as offensive as that's not my intention

 

[Bigbandguy]

One comment about back-feed. My dad was a foreman for a utility company for his entire career. I remember the time he came home with blood all over him from trying to help a lineman who had brushed against the wrong wire and fallen off the pole, hitting his head on a stone curb (helmet fell off) . My dad was very safety conscious, held safety meetings regularly and did everything he could to keep his guys safe. I remember how rough losing a man was on him. That memory alone would add my voice to the others regarding back-feed. Those guys have enough things trying to kill them without adding one. Just my 2 cents.

 

[checkthisout]

I like that interlock kit!

I didn't know anything like that was available. Gonna put one on my garage and in the in house when I replace the panel.

 

[checkthisout]

One comment about back-feed. My dad was a foreman for a utility company for his entire career. I remember the time he came home with blood all over him from trying to help a lineman who had brushed against the wrong wire and fallen off the pole, hitting his head on a stone curb (helmet fell off) . My dad was very safety conscious, held safety meetings regularly and did everything he could to keep his guys safe. I remember how rough losing a man was on him. That memory alone would add my voice to the others regarding back-feed. Those guys have enough things trying to kill them without adding one. Just my 2 cents.

I think it's less likely that backfeed would injure a lineman.

More than likely it would cause interesting things to happen on the homeowner end when the utility turned the power back on.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Guys I appreciate the advice. I really do but I think you are going in circles there.

I think we can all agree that backfeeding is bad and we shouldn't do it regardless of the dangers. I promise I will NOT do it.

I still have a few questions

1)can't I just use 4 wire cable for the cord from the plug to the panel? What did the other poster mean when he said 10/4 for one part and 10/3 for the other or did I misread that.

2)So the equipment I will need is an interlocking kit, about 50 feet of 10/4 cord, the PB 30 amp box, dual pole 30 amp breaker.