generator --diesel or natural gas

[Ole Slewfoot]

no no no you're so wrong. this guy online said they turn natural gas off all the time during events you would really want a generator running for.

Cheaper to let it all leak out after a quake

Generac sells a 20 KW diesel generator for $12,000. It has a 34 gallon tank that lasts a whole 29 hours!

Are you really gonna pull 20K the whole time?

I ran a grid last summer where we were burning 125 gal a day, and that was about 50 RVs and a stage..

 

[ljhhontx]

Back in Feb. 2011 at my place in Taos the state of New Mexico (through incompetence) had to shut down natural gas to all of Northern NM during 10 degree temps. That of course caused a run on electric heaters, which shut down the power grid. This went on for over a week, because as the prior poster said they couldn't just turn on the NG. They had to have the gas company and every plumber in the area check each house first. My little honda 2K gen and fuel from my RV kept the essentials going and with a chord of dry wood it was fine.

Don't believe it can't happen.

That's why I'm going with a tri-fuel generator so you can use whatever fuel is available.

I was called up to go to that event and didn't end up going. I don't know if it was ever really said but what happened was ERCOT ( the Texas electric grid) ordered rolling blackouts for the entire state to try to save some metro areas and neglected to exempt the west Texas utilities who serve the compressor stations on the pipelines. They went down and the telemetry went down which temporarily shut in some lines leading to your area, it had a low pressure effect which escalated over time to a complete loss of pressure. Electricity rolling blackouts cause us a lot of trouble when the areas blacked out are the same as our systems, the heaters all come back on at the same time when the power is restored and our pressure takes a dive because our systems are not designed for 100% draw at one time.

 

[alexb2000]

I was called up to go to that event and didn't end up going. I don't know if it was ever really said but what happened was ERCOT ( the Texas electric grid) ordered rolling blackouts for the entire state to try to save some metro areas and neglected to exempt the west Texas utilities who serve the compressor stations on the pipelines. They went down and the telemetry went down which temporarily shut in some lines leading to your area, it had a low pressure effect which escalated over time to a complete loss of pressure. Electricity rolling blackouts cause us a lot of trouble when the areas blacked out are the same as our systems, the heaters all come back on at the same time when the power is restored and our pressure takes a dive because our systems are not designed for 100% draw at one time.

Interesting, the State of NM did blame rolling blackouts at the time. Given reduced NG pressure their choice to shut off Northern NM vs. places more south was a dangerous one IMO. The weather in the mountains is MUCH worse than say Abq. where the NG stayed on. I am just happy that the casualties were low, mainly because most people still have some way to burn wood.

 

[Bretny]

Generac sells a 20 KW diesel generator for $12,000. It has a 34 gallon tank that lasts a whole 29 hours! It is more than I want to spend, but if you lose power a lot, or want to have power without natural gas or propane this is the way to go. Personally, I would not want to have hundreds of gallons of diesel on hand. Look at the liability issues for fuel oil leaks.

My bigger concern if I lose natural gas would be heat in the winter.

Many many of the homes in the northeast alreaty have hundreds of gallons of fuel sitting around. Its heating oil. Tanks are in ground, in basements or just out in the open and havr been for many decades. Have there been leaks? Im positive there have been but generaly you dont go from a good condition tank to hundreds of gallons spilled in a few days. This is also why they dont allow tanks to be burried anymore.

 

[ljhhontx]

Interesting, the State of NM did blame rolling blackouts at the time. Given reduced NG pressure their choice to shut off Northern NM vs. places more south was a dangerous one IMO. The weather in the mountains is MUCH worse than say Abq. where the NG stayed on. I am just happy that the casualties were low, mainly because most people still have some way to burn wood.

Politics at work, they call for statewide blackouts because if they exempt anyone they know they will catch hell, nowadays the wind and solar in that area could probably handle most of the local load if allowed. The rural areas are not the cause of the issue and blacking them out will never solve the issue. Most rural electrics have the ability to selectivly shut down a/c's and heaters for short times to balance the load on their systems, that's why they give those t-stats away, when they install them they get permission to install the cut outs to allow them control in situations, mostly summer load events. Hopefully ercot learned from the failure in 2011.

 

[reader2580]

Many many of the homes in the northeast alreaty have hundreds of gallons of fuel sitting around. Its heating oil. Tanks are in ground, in basements or just out in the open and havr been for many decades. Have there been leaks? Im positive there have been but generaly you dont go from a good condition tank to hundreds of gallons spilled in a few days. This is also why they dont allow tanks to be burried anymore.

I just wouldn't want the liability myself after reading about all the fuel oil tanks that leaked and cost many thousands to clean up. Plenty of farms and businesses have diesel storage tanks and these days most of them have a pan underneath in case of a leak.

I have 150 gallons of diesel on my property most of the year because I have a converted bus with a 150 gallon tank. I am not worried about leaks because the tank is not exposed to the weather.

 

[Bretny]

You only read about the leaks. No one wrights about the perfectly non leaking tanks that are many years old.

 

[TractorJeff]

They sell double wall tanks now.
If you are worried about a leak.

 

[yeldogt]

Many many of the homes in the northeast alreaty have hundreds of gallons of fuel sitting around. Its heating oil. Tanks are in ground, in basements or just out in the open and havr been for many decades. Have there been leaks? Im positive there have been but generaly you dont go from a good condition tank to hundreds of gallons spilled in a few days. This is also why they dont allow tanks to be burried anymore.

But you can't use home heating fuel in a generator -- you have to buy a higher grade fuel and burn it in your home as well if you want to go that route.

The OP has NG .. so why would he have fuel oil anyway.

This is a silly debate .. for those with NG ... it's going to be the fuel of choice for everything.

I can't tell you how many houses I have bought with oil -- they are sold with something else.

 

[naturalgas]

I've worked in the natural gas business for 30 years and can tell you, no sane operator is going to turn off a system due to flooding or anything short of a catastrophic damage to the system. To restart a system after shutdown is so labor intensive we avoid it at all cost. Lines have to be purged of air, tested and each customer has to be turned off and back on. The only time I have ever seen it happen is when contaminates (propane) was discovered in a system due to use of a tanker as backup gas during a maintenance operation. It took us over 5 days to restore service to 1500 customers.. Leaving the system on and working leakage as it is found is a far better method and is the industry standard.

Exactly. Lots of over thinking here. For a hurricane, blizzard, ice storm NG is a better option. For major catastrophe living in a bomb shelter is a whole other scenario.


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[American Locomotive]

If you live an area that's prone to earthquakes, has had frequent NG outages in the past, or doesn't have NG, then a diesel generator might make sense.

If you live an area with NG, that rarely has a NG outage, then it definitely makes sense to go with a NG generator. If you're still really worried about a potential gas outage, you could get a dual-fuel NG/Propane model.

A diesel generator will have 2-3x the acquisition cost, higher maintenance costs, far more expensive replacement parts, and be harder to find parts in an emergency. On the other hand, a Kohler residential LPG/NG generator uses a standard commercial V-Twin engine with cheap and readily available parts. You could drive down to any commercial power equipment place and find just about every part in stock.

But you can't use home heating fuel in a generator -- you have to buy a higher grade fuel and burn it in your home as well if you want to go that route.

Home heating oil has been the exact same ULSD fuel as on-road diesel for many years now. It's just dyed red. We've been renting a 200KW CAT Diesel generator for the past several months at work with a scheduled weekly fueling by the CAT dealer. They just send a home heating oil company to come and fill it.

 

[6768rogues]

For me, given the choice, NG without any thoughts of anything else.

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

But you can't use home heating fuel in a generator -- you have to buy a higher grade fuel and burn it in your home as well if you want to go that route.

You can burn any medium to light oil provided it is filtered and warm enough.

 

[TractorJeff]

If you live an area that's prone to earthquakes, has had frequent NG outages in the past, or doesn't have NG, then a diesel generator might make sense.

If you live an area with NG, that rarely has a NG outage, then it definitely makes sense to go with a NG generator. If you're still really worried about a potential gas outage, you could get a dual-fuel NG/Propane model.

A diesel generator will have 2-3x the acquisition cost, higher maintenance costs, far more expensive replacement parts, and be harder to find parts in an emergency. On the other hand, a Kohler residential LPG/NG generator uses a standard commercial V-Twin engine with cheap and readily available parts. You could drive down to any commercial power equipment place and find just about every part in stock.



Home heating oil has been the exact same ULSD fuel as on-road diesel for many years now. It's just dyed red. We've been renting a 200KW CAT Diesel generator for the past several months at work with a scheduled weekly fueling by the CAT dealer. They just send a home heating oil company to come and fill it.

I said it up above but apparently there are smarter people than us operators out there! 2 years ago I was burning $25k to $35k a month in "Diesel" fuel running Generators. Same deal, the "Oil Truck" delivered right out of the same tank that he filled the Farmers house heating tanks and farm tractor tanks. Its all priced different and the same Red Dye!

 

[dan360]

I’m shocked at the people who say they are self reliant yet will pay huge money to have inferior systems installed in their homes for full retail prices.

I live in earthquake volcano land and deal with floods, high winds, bad weather, all that Jazz. No hurricanes or tornadoes or super below zero freezes but just about everything else. Plus stupid people.

A local NG facility has diesel generators for backup. That speaks volumes to me.

 

[reader2580]

I’m shocked at the people who say they are self reliant yet will pay huge money to have inferior systems installed in their homes for full retail prices.

You have no idea how much everyone here paid for their generators. I spent about $3,000 including generator, permit, wiring, gas line, and transfer switch. I have had my generator for three years now with only one outage that lasted minutes. It doesn’t make sense for me to go diesel. I make no claims to being self reliant.

I don’t think I could even buy a proper double wall tank for what I spent.

 

[Backwodsurvivor]

I'd like to though like throw out another option entirely. Solar with battery backup. Similair price range and much less maintenance. Maybe have a small portable genset to top off your batteries if solar isn't keeping up.

 

[dan360]

You have no idea how much everyone here paid for their generators. I spent about $3,000 including generator, permit, wiring, gas line, and transfer switch. I have had my generator for three years now with only one outage that lasted minutes. It doesn’t make sense for me to go diesel. I make no claims to being self reliant.

I don’t think I could even buy a proper double wall tank for what I spent.

Then why so quick on the trigger if an observation doesn’t even apply to you?


Sheesh. Merry Christmas.

 

[jeepxj]

I’m shocked at the people who say they are self reliant yet will pay huge money to have inferior systems installed in their homes for full retail prices.

I live in earthquake volcano land and deal with floods, high winds, bad weather, all that Jazz. No hurricanes or tornadoes or super below zero freezes but just about everything else. Plus stupid people.

A local NG facility has diesel generators for backup. That speaks volumes to me.

gosh its almost like they have levels of redundancy there.

 

[Falcon67]

They sell double wall tanks now.
If you are worried about a leak.

Code required around here.

 

[Jsf721]

After hurricane sandy they shut the gas down after a week because the crews were finding leaks. These leaks could have been there for years. I had a crew come out and install black pipe. This was the wrong pipe but used because it was what was available to the crew at the time. We were without ng for a few am days. Has me scared about a ng generator. I have a general 1500e gasoline that did My whole home on 14 gallons a day running pretty much 24x7

 

[reader2580]

Then why so quick on the trigger if an observation doesn’t even apply to you?


Sheesh. Merry Christmas.

There are a whole lot of people here advocating for diesel generators that cost significantly more than a natural gas generator. I’m simply advocating that natural gas will work fine for most. Sure, you can buy an old diesel generator cheap, but not everyone here is a diesel mechanic or an electrician. If your power goes out regularly for long periods and you’ll put a lot of hours on the generator a diesel will last longer.

I had not even considered diesel when I was installing a standby generator. It just never crossed my mind due to the cost. I have natural gas so I went with a natural gas generator. I have never lived anywhere in 46 years where natural gas went out. I have places to go if gas and power was both out.

People are free to choose whatever fuel they want for a standby generator. If you absolutely need power no matter what then diesel is the way to go.

 

[TractorJeff]

These Threads are always Fun!
Every couple of weeks or more this topic pops up!
Why people don't do a SEARCH and read all the prior Threads is beyond me!
Its like asking "What is the best heater for my Garage"?
That one is always another Crazy Thread!

 

[Ole Slewfoot]

There are a whole lot of people here advocating for diesel generators that cost significantly more than a natural gas generator.

Do they? Im not seeing a Chinesium diesel costing much if any different from the NG cheese Generac is serving up. 1300-2000 for ~8kw, 3500-5000 for a 20K unit.

 

[checkthisout]

In my experience.

If your house runs on propane or natural gas, an inverter generator of a few thousand watts gets you by. You're only running lights and the furnace blower.

If you have to run heat or a/c off of the generator, then Diesel. The nasty gas ones, gas can get shut off during a major storm event leaving you with nothing.

 

[Bretny]

Do they? Im not seeing a Chinesium diesel costing much if any different from the NG cheese Generac is serving up. 1300-2000 for ~8kw, 3500-5000 for a 20K unit.

I bet if you look real close generac engines are built in china. Assembled in USA just says chinese made to me.

 

[jade97]

The engine in my Generac is a 2.4L Turbo Mitsubishi.....assembled in Japan or WI?

 

[yeldogt]

The people that are commenting about diesel and home heating fuel being the same are all from the west coast ... I can tell you that in the east coast were we have much oil heating. The quality of fuel that can be labeled #2 is different vs on and off road motor fuels.

The motor fuel is cleaner -- the generator companies void warranties burning #2. I have at lets three choices around me. Some burn Kero.

 

[Stuart in MN]

The nasty gas ones, gas can get shut off during a major storm event leaving you with nothing.

If you're talking about natural gas service, it may be a regional thing but in the upper Midwest at any rate that would be a very rare occurrence. A person who works in the natural gas industry responded to this suggestion earlier in the thread, he mentioned that shutting down a gas line is just about the last thing they'd want to do.

 

[finn]

The people that are commenting about diesel and home heating fuel being the same are all from the west coast ... I can tell you that in the east coast were we have much oil heating. The quality of fuel that can be labeled #2 is different vs on and off road motor fuels.

The motor fuel is cleaner -- the generator companies void warranties burning #2. I have at lets three choices around me. Some burn Kero.

Not true here. Legally, number 2 fuel oil has a lower cetane, worse cleanliness spec, higher cloud point, and wider lubricity spec than ULSDon road fuel.

From a practical standpoint, all of our local distributors simple sell the same fuel as on road, off road, and home heating oil because of storage and tankage issues.

I think that’s the case through most of the country.

Fuel oil has largely fallen out of favor as a heating fuel, so it makes sense for the distribution network to commonize product.

 

[Bretny]

The people that are commenting about diesel and home heating fuel being the same are all from the west coast ... I can tell you that in the east coast were we have much oil heating. The quality of fuel that can be labeled #2 is different vs on and off road motor fuels.

The motor fuel is cleaner -- the generator companies void warranties burning #2. I have at lets three choices around me. Some burn Kero.

Im in the northeast. I burn heating oil, kero or diesel in my generator or mini excavator. Some times a blend of all 3. Kero can be alot worse for how dry it is compaired to HHO.

 

[reader2580]

Do they? Im not seeing a Chinesium diesel costing much if any different from the NG cheese Generac is serving up. 1300-2000 for ~8kw, 3500-5000 for a 20K unit.

If you're looking for reliability and long life a Chinese generator would probably not be the way to go. I was comparing a brand name residential natural gas standby generator versus a brand name residential diesel standby generator.

Are those Chinese diesel generators even sold as a standby generator with a weather enclosure and an auto start capability? (I don't know as I have never shopped for one.)

 

[TractorJeff]

The people that are commenting about diesel and home heating fuel being the same are all from the west coast ... I can tell you that in the east coast were we have much oil heating. The quality of fuel that can be labeled #2 is different vs on and off road motor fuels.

The motor fuel is cleaner -- the generator companies void warranties burning #2. I have at lets three choices around me. Some burn Kero.

It was in New York State South of Buffalo!
25 years ago the Home Heating Company truck filled 3 neighbors house tanks in a row, then stopped at 2 farms and topped off the equipment tanks!
I asked the driver, He told me about it is all the same fuel just different prices!
Happens here in the Midwest too!

 

[Bigbandguy]

I have a whole house NG Generator (Generac/Mitsubishi) and it has performed well. I have thought it might be good to have a gasoline powered small unit such as the small Honda for two reasons. First there are times it would be nice not having that monster roaring away outside the house and secondly, two cars worth of gasoline would provide basic civilization for quite a while if the NG supply was interrupted.

This is also a good case for a few solar panels and small battery bank. Again the goal would be basic civilization after other options failed. A few lights, a small fan, a radio etc beats hell out of nothing during an extended outage.

 

[Bretny]

Be aware that some of those mitsubishi engines still have a timing belt. They need to be chaged on the cars via the years not the miles/hours.

 

[yeldogt]

It was in New York State South of Buffalo!
25 years ago the Home Heating Company truck filled 3 neighbors house tanks in a row, then stopped at 2 farms and topped off the equipment tanks!
I asked the driver, He told me about it is all the same fuel just different prices!
Happens here in the Midwest too!

I am sure that does happen depending on the time of year and what is available in the tanks and pipeline .... and who you buy the fuel from.

There can be very different reasons why fuel is priced differently from one company to the next .. and from one customer to the next. W/O getting too technical -- the base for many fuels can be the same. It's a question of purity and additives. Home heating oil can be dirty (relatively) and still work .. where you would not want to burn that in an engine.

#2 fuel oil -- #1 diesel .. #1 Kero -- JetA .. they have more in common than not. But they are not the same. It's going away but overland trucks and car #1 was different .....

If you have a supplier who provides lots of farms -- stocking two fuels may not make sense. And the price they sell out for may be more. Cleaner burning fuel oil can cut down on maintenance ....

It's the same with Propane -- not all propane is the same. It can be a very dirty burn.

 

[checkthisout]

If you're talking about natural gas service, it may be a regional thing but in the upper Midwest at any rate that would be a very rare occurrence. A person who works in the natural gas industry responded to this suggestion earlier in the thread, he mentioned that shutting down a gas line is just about the last thing they'd want to do.

Correct. Probably a lot bigger problems than lack of electricity if the NG gets shut off.

I like inverter generators because they are so efficient and quiet. You can run them all day for days without sucking up much fuel VS most all whole house units that just go at full RPM regardless of load.

 

[Radix2]

Correct. Probably a lot bigger problems than lack of electricity if the NG gets shut off.
.

Or more succinctly, if NG goes off in the winter north, having a diesel putt putting away is not going to mean diddly.

no NG no heat, not live-able for millions.

 

[HOTFR8]

Just a reminder. This is a very global forum and what may work in one location may not work in another. What works for me in my climate and location for example possibly would not work where it snows. Fuels and availability will also change due to global location.

 

[American Locomotive]

The people that are commenting about diesel and home heating fuel being the same are all from the west coast ... I can tell you that in the east coast were we have much oil heating. The quality of fuel that can be labeled #2 is different vs on and off road motor fuels.

The motor fuel is cleaner -- the generator companies void warranties burning #2. I have at lets three choices around me. Some burn Kero.

It's the same stuff man. They all fill up at the same fuel depot. It's not worth the effort to bring in two different, nearly identical product. It's all ULSD. #2 fuel oil gets dyed, on-road diesel does not.

As I said earlier in this thread, we've been renting a 200KW Diesel generator right from one of the biggest CAT dealers in the Northeast. We use their fueling service. Every Monday a home heating oil truck shows up and pumps 200 gallons of red dyed #2 fuel oil into that generator. You better tell the CAT dealer that they've voided their own warranty...

Do they? Im not seeing a Chinesium diesel costing much if any different from the NG cheese Generac is serving up. 1300-2000 for ~8kw, 3500-5000 for a 20K unit.

Ah yes, a cheap and nasty Chinese diesel generator is just what I want for a backup generator.