Generator experts needed

[archtimb]

Got any standby generator gurus on here?

Bought a house with a Kohler standby generator. Out of warranty. I tried to set up periodic maintenance with the company that took care of it for the previous owner. After contacting them twice with no response I have been doing the periodic myself.

Seemed to work fine until a few months ago when I found it was not exercising. Went to Kohler website, found another "Authorized" service company. Left a message with no return contact. Fiddled with it a little, checked connections, found the battery fried (tested at auto parts store). OK, replace it with like kind and been working great.

Until a month ago. Found it not exercising again. But this time the LCD display is completely blank. I saw online that this might be from a deep drained battery. Suspected that maybe the internal charger killed my new battery. Charged it up, same results. Took the integral charger out of the operation (turned breaker off) and tried a remote charger. Same results. Tried a known good battery, Same results. The internal charger seems to be putting out 13.5v.

The only response I can get from the display is if I disconnect the battery maintainer for a few seconds and then plug it back in, the "Off" and "Run" LED's both flash together for a short time. Nothing is ever displayed on the LCD screen. I have tried this with both my recently purchased battery and the one from a working vehicle. Also the same results using the internal charger.

Specs:
Kohler 14 RESA
Controller RDC2
Transfer switch RXT ATS

Any other tests or recommendations to do next? I'm good with electric work, but this crosses over into electronics, which baffle me.


Any help greatly appreciated.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The battery charger should be putting out higher voltage than the battery voltage rating so 13.5v doesnt sound bad.

Have you tried looking for a manual for the generator?

 

[archtimb]

Thanks Wylie,

Yeah, I have the manual. Not a SERVICE manual, but a manual. I've poured over that thing and exhausted my google-fu and can not find anything close to my symptoms.

Just looking for some expert affirmation before I drop a thousand on a new controller. Damn computers anyway. Be really sweet if one local "Authorized Service" guy would get back to me when I contact them.

 

[archtimb]

One more tid-bit. Seems I left my old (Radio Shack, so it's old!) DMM hooked up to the battery a week ago while I was monitoring the voltage. Came to it today and it's dead as a door nail. New batteries. Nope. Changed the fuse. Nope.

Time for a new DMM. Maybe it caught whatever the generator's got!

 

[ihateminimumwage]

Thanks Wylie,

Yeah, I have the manual. Not a SERVICE manual, but a manual. I've poured over that thing and exhausted my google-fu and can not find anything close to my symptoms.

Just looking for some expert affirmation before I drop a thousand on a new controller. Damn computers anyway. Be really sweet if one local "Authorized Service" guy would get back to me when I contact them.

PM me your email, and I'll shoot you the service manual.

It's been a minute since I was working on the home standby side, so I'll dig through what I have and try to jog my memory over a couple of beers.

 

[byacey]

A fully charged battery should settle at about 12.8 volts when fully charged, and nothing connected to it. With the charger connected, it should float at about 13.5 to 13.7 volts when fully charged.

 

[mm08822]

With a fully charged battery connected, does the 13.5 vdc ever back off? If not, the batteries were being continuously charged.

I'm not familiar with Kohler gens, but maybe the sensed bat voltage is low. Pull the connectors and see if any are suspect high resistance. Simplest thing to do is make/break all connections to the controller several times. All power off when doing so! Try electrical contact cleaner/moisture inhibitor.

 

[byacey]

13.5V to 13.8 V is fine to float the battery at continuously. Check the acid level in the batteries; if they are being over charged, you'll smell sulfur fumes and the acid level in the wells will be down.

 

[ihateminimumwage]

What color board is the back of the controller?

Have you tried killing AC & DC power to the gen and unhooking everything from the controller? A hard reset will sometimes wake them back up.

Battery charge is controlled from the board in the transfer switch. Sounds like yours is working properly.

I emailed the service manuals, but also look into getting the USB Utility to update controller firmware.
http://www.kohlerpower.com/home/usb/index.html

 

[archtimb]

Very nice! Thank you

Looks like I have some homework to do. Re-read the owners manual this weekend and there was a slight hint about a reset. I'll try that and report back.

Thanks all also for the battery tips. At this time I have ruled out the battery and charging system. It was a red herring, but where I started as that was the previous problem. When I took the internal charger out of the equation, I was using a remote C-TEK charger. Yes the voltage did drop down to about 13v as the battery topped off. Hence, why I had hooked my DMM to the system to monitor, but then forgot about it. Seems to have killed my old cheapo meter.

What color board is the back of the controller?

Have you tried killing AC & DC power to the gen and unhooking everything from the controller? A hard reset will sometimes wake them back up.

Battery charge is controlled from the board in the transfer switch. Sounds like yours is working properly.

I emailed the service manuals, but also look into getting the USB Utility to update controller firmware.
http://www.kohlerpower.com/home/usb/index.html

 

[rlitman]

Could there be another battery in the display? Like a button cell to maintain the clock?

 

[archtimb]

I'll look, but from what I have read the controller is powered by the battery & the internal charger. I have not pulled the controller yet

 

[archtimb]

Thanks to all that responded. Pulled everything apart. Nice & clean, no sign of anything amiss. Totally removed the controller and set it aside for an hour. I've seen potted boards before but the sealing work on this one is impressive. Probably 1/4-3/8" of sealant over the entire board.

Put everything back together and it's working now! Programed up the date, time & exercise time. It fired up at the set time and ran through the test. Display now works and programming held.

ihateminimumwage, I owe you a steak dinner if you ever get to Western Oregon! Thanks!

FYI, I have the older green board, with the screw on cover over the CB & USB port. Why is there an "older" one that has been replaced with the "red" one, and auxiliary wiring harness. Bad design? What would cause the display to go to sleep like that? Must be windoze based, close all windows and restart...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

ctrl-alt-del

 

[archtimb]

ctrl-alt-del

 

[ihateminimumwage]

Put everything back together and it's working now! Programed up the date, time & exercise time. It fired up at the set time and ran through the test. Display now works and programming held.

Glad to hear it came back online!

ihateminimumwage, I owe you a steak dinner if you ever get to Western Oregon! Thanks!

Hey, I'll be over in Eugene later this month, but you're off the hook since the wife and I will be celebrating our anniversary so I'm sure I'll be covering all the dinners .

FYI, I have the older green board, with the screw on cover over the CB & USB port. Why is there an "older" one that has been replaced with the "red" one, and auxiliary wiring harness. Bad design? What would cause the display to go to sleep like that? Must be windoze based, close all windows and restart...

Some of the green boards had issues. I don't recall exactly what they were, but we did a good amount of firmware updates and some warranty board replacements to the red boards, and quickly after that the blue boards.

Do a firmware update if you can, and I'll send you the Service Bulletin I dug up with the info on the battery charge diode kit (that Kohler offers for free) to improve battery charging on the old boards. Pretty sure the install info is in the service manual I sent you.

 

[archtimb]

THANK YOU!
I will reach out to Kohler later to try and get that diode kit. Seems like a likely suspect.

I only have a Macbook right now. Work is supposed to get me a windoze laptop soon. I will look at the firmware then.

The offer still stands. I'm just 20 minutes out in Elmira. Our anniversary is next week too! We could make it a double date!

Glad to hear it came back online!

Hey, I'll be over in Eugene later this month, but you're off the hook since the wife and I will be celebrating our anniversary so I'm sure I'll be covering all the dinners .


Some of the green boards had issues. I don't recall exactly what they were, but we did a good amount of firmware updates and some warranty board replacements to the red boards, and quickly after that the blue boards.

Do a firmware update if you can, and I'll send you the Service Bulletin I dug up with the info on the battery charge diode kit (that Kohler offers for free) to improve battery charging on the old boards. Pretty sure the install info is in the service manual I sent you.

 

[ihateminimumwage]

THANK YOU!
I will reach out to Kohler later to try and get that diode kit. Seems like a likely suspect.

I only have a Macbook right now. Work is supposed to get me a windoze laptop soon. I will look at the firmware then.

The offer still stands. I'm just 20 minutes out in Elmira. Our anniversary is next week too! We could make it a double date!

Much appreciated! Don't know what the future holds, but may be in the area on a more permanent basis coming up. Have a great anniversary, and hope one of the Kohler dealers is able to set you up with the battery charge kit.

 

[archtimb]

Much appreciated! Don't know what the future holds, but may be in the area on a more permanent basis coming up. Have a great anniversary, and hope one of the Kohler dealers is able to set you up with the battery charge kit.

Contacted EC (NW Power now) in Portland. After explaining to three different people the details, the Service Bulletin and the part I required they agreed to check to see if Kohler would honor the SB. Three days, three more phone calls and finally a return call, THEY WILL. Just shipping to me should be my cost. I will update results when receive I get it installed. The harness on the market is between $60-$75.

Internal charging circuit wants to dump 14.1-14.2v into the battery. This manufacturer fix should bring that down to acceptable levels.

Note: EC was the firm doing maintenance for the previous owner. I contacted them twice after my purchase to get a tech out to maintain this unit, with no responses. I bought this place in 2017. They should have been on top of this SB back then. Between my experience with trying to get a response and missing the SB, my confidence in them is very low.

IHateMinunimumWage, Don't be shy if/when you are in the area. Let me know if you need any help if you transition to a new area. I will PM my phone number. Did it myself 2-1/2 years ago. Thanks again.

 

[rburke65]

Sounds like another happy ending....so to speak....on this forum. Ya got to love it! I do. Lots of info on here.

 

[MFolks]

For car and motorcycle electrical connection cleaning,I use www.deoxit.com from Caig Laboratories Inc. Try some on your generators connectors.

 

[archtimb]

Just to close this out, in case anyone else out there in the ether ever has the same strange set of occurrences in a Kohler RESA generator.

EC Power was able to submit my s/n to Kohler and they agreed to provide it gratis. All I did was pay for the ride. So if your unit is charging at 14.1-14.2v, have a dealer put your s/n in to obtain the harness upgrade outlined in SB752. It obviously was a defect in the original harness/control. This little doo-dad has a diode in it that knocks the voltage down to an acceptable level. On the open market the harness costs $65-$80.

It arrived a few days ago and got it installed today. Charging at 13.5v now. Still no real explanation of why my LCD screen went blank and put the genset out of commission, but at least this malfunction did not let the magic smoke out of the controller. Perhaps it was a fail-safe to protect it from over voltage, I don't know. I did have to put a battery in this unit last year, probably due to the over voltage, but only guessing at this point.

I will say that this episode has returned some of my faith in the Kohler units. Having delved deeper into the unit than ever before, they really do seem well made. Their support for the end user and their network of authorized service companies, well, *****. I have now tried to get responses from three of their service companies and, to date, not one has ever responded. I would recommend their products to you, but be prepared to handle periodic maintenance, diagnosing and repair on your own. Anyway, I learned a lot more knowledge, and more about my unit, and isn't that what GJ is all about?!

Again, thanks to all who helped, particularly ihateminimumwage. Without his input and PM's I probably would never have found out about that Service Bulletin and thrown a new controller ($1000+) at it, only to have the same results down the line.

THIS FORUM ROCKS!

 

[dcg9381]

Thanks.. I'm looking at Kohler RESA - but my main concerns are the lack of "self service" (end user) options on support and being held hostage by a "service network" otherwise...

I don't want a Generac based on some other experiences in RV-land.

 

[Higgins]

It's amazing the Koler doesn't care about selling new products, or supporting what they have in the field!
I'm in need of a HHG and I don't whant to use Generac. Turns out the local rep is BOTH Generac and Kholer . Came out to the house and gave me a bid for the generator and he supplies me with a bid for Generac. Complained to Kholer, went in one ear and out the other.

I Really, really, really, love CAT products. However, the smallest size gen set is 50KW and I need only 27K. There is a BIG differnece in $$$$, however, CAT supports there products where ever they are installed in the world. Who else could help you out when your in the middle of the Sinai Desert and have problems !!!!

AL

 

[Fasthotrod]

It's amazing the Koler doesn't care about selling new products, or supporting what they have in the field!

I do power systems engineering and infrastructure upgrades for a living. I've been in the 'power' business for about 30 years and I've worked on many different brands... CAT, Cummins/Onan, Kohler, Katolight, Diversified, White Superior, you name it. They ALL have their own issues... none of them are perfect. I can't speak for Kohler, but I really don't think that they would go through the trouble of developing/building equipment and then not care to sell it to the public.

I'm in need of a HHG and I don't whant to use Generac. Turns out the local rep is BOTH Generac and Kholer . Came out to the house and gave me a bid for the generator and he supplies me with a bid for Generac. Complained to Kholer, went in one ear and out the other.

I'm sorry to hear that... I understand when that happens and it *****. From what you said above, it sounds like you're dealing with a local Kohler Residential distributor vs. a Kohler Industrial distributor like Nixon Power over in Nashville. I can assure you that they are not the same thing.

It looks like Cove Generators Sales and Service is your local distributor. Was that who you talked to? It might be worth a call to another distributor in the general area and see if you get better results. Here's the website to look up who sells locally to you:

http://www.kohlerpower.com/home/sales-service/find-a-dealer#address=monterey,+tn&filter=Sales

If you don't get any traction there, you can probably buy the equipment on-line and have it installed by a qualified electrician, then have the distributor perform the startup for warranty purposes. Might save you a few bucks, too. That's what I did when I installed a 20kW Kohler E/G and ATS for my in-laws.

I Really, really, really, love CAT products. However, the smallest size gen set is 50KW and I need only 27K. There is a BIG differnece in $$$$, however, CAT supports there products where ever they are installed in the world. Who else could help you out when your in the middle of the Sinai Desert and have problems !!!!

AL

CAT makes good stuff, no doubt about it... but I don't think that they have a "Residential Generator" division, just the industrial side and the portable generators they sell. I'm sure that CAT would love to sell you an Industrial Generator, but like you said you're gonna pay big $$$$ for it.

For what it's worth, Kohler's Industrial division also travels all over the world supporting their products. I know, because I personally have had them do work for me all over the country and in other US territories. (I recently returned from Alaska where I'm setting up a temporary/standby system with three 1,500kW E/G's and a switchgear/power distribution trailer.)

They have their own corporate engineers/technicians up at the factory in Sheboygan, WI as well as an entire network of Distributors across the U.S. like Nixon Power as mentioned previously. It's at an entirely different level than a Residential application... but unless you're in the business, you wouldn't necessarily know that. I guess what I'm saying is, don't blame the whole company because one local guy sucked.

27kW is a lot of juice... you must have a pretty big place to need that much power. If you have done a load study and you're absolutely sure that you need a 27kW unit then you're likely going to have to jump from a Residential unit into a Small Business style generator. Here's a 30kW Natural Gas/LP unit that would likely work for your application, assuming that you didn't want/need a diesel:

http://www.kohlerpower.com/home/small-business-generators/products?prodNum=30RCL

You'll also need a transfer switch... perhaps something like this 200A service entrance rated one would work for you:

http://www.kohlerpower.com/home/small-business-generators/products?prodNum=RXT-JFNC-200ASEQS4

If you wanted to start a thread about your project, I'm sure a lot of us would jump in and help you with it... there's quite a few power guys on here that have some great advice if you're looking for a hand.

Mark

 

[dcg9381]

Mark, do you recommend keeping the manufacturer ATS in-sync with the generator? IE - buying and ATS and generator from the same manufacturer?

You installed 20kW Kohler E/G and ATS for your family - why did you choose that set?

 

[Fasthotrod]

Mark, do you recommend keeping the manufacturer ATS in-sync with the generator? IE - buying and ATS and generator from the same manufacturer?

You installed 20kW Kohler E/G and ATS for your family - why did you choose that set?

Not necessarily, no... I've worked on numerous transfer switches over the years, and to me it's more about quality, features, functions, and a brand that backs up their product.

Some companies will make their own stuff... some will simply buy another companies product and slap their lable on it. Some will do a combination of the two. To me, there's nothing wrong with it... provided you get the support you need when you need it.

For my in-laws, I had to consider the project costs and reliability of the unit. My father in-law has COPD and runs an oxygen concentrator 24/7. If the power goes out, it can be life threatening... He's only got so many tanks in reserve, and given the threats of tornadoes here in Oklahoma... it's a no brainier.

Like anyone, I went online and searched for products that fit their budget. Their house has 100A service, and the load study showed that was more than sufficient for their needs. I looked at how the service came to the house, where the meter was located, how it fed to the main panel, and started looking at ways to integrate a transfer switch into the mix.

My father in-law didn't want me to have to rewire the entire house panel to move circuits over to a dedicated panel, so we decided on a whole house option with a service entrance rated ATS. This is where we got lucky... the way that the meter was laid out on the house, and the way that the meter fed the main panel, allowed us to put in an outdoor rated (NEMA 3R) ATS right next to the meter. So when I looked for a transfer switch, I found the 100A Kohler to be a perfect fit. Ease of installation reduces cost, so that helped drive the decision.

Having worked with Kohler and their products the way I have over the years, I know what goes into their industrial division. I made an assumption (good or bad) that the company has the same mentality for quality on their residential side as well. Call it a leap of faith or an educated guess... but either way I've not been disappointed.

My father in-law has only had one issue, and that was a voluntary recall by Kohler to fix a potential issue. (It wasn't a problem for us, thankfully.) Kohler sent him a letter, gave him the local distributors info and encouraged him to schedule a service call, free of charge. The guy came out and swapped the parts in less than an hour. No problems at all.

I realize that my situation is unique... given my background, I can typically fix anything that could go wrong with that system. I'm very familiar with how it works, and I've had the factory training on multiple industrial systems they produce as part of my job... not everybody can say that. That was also part of my decision to buy Kohler... if anything happens, I don't have to rely upon a local distributor to fix it. But as it turns out, that concern hasn't been an issue. They have had that unit in service for a couple of years now, and all we've done (besides the recall) is regular maintenance. Plugs, oil and air filters, and oil changes. If you can wrench on a lawn mower, you can do the annual service on it, no problem.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you shouldn't buy products from other companies like Generac/CAT/Onan, et-al. If it fits your budget and application, great! But my experience with Kohler, while not perfect all the time, has been that they make a quality product and will stand behind it. I can't ask for much more than that.

Mark

 

[dcg9381]

Thanks, Mark.

 

[archtimb]

Well, almost five years later the saga continues. The diode kit is still working perfectly. And now for something completely different!

About 2 months ago I found the generator not exercising. Open the lid and find a flashing red LED and "Emergency Stop Shutdown" message. Did a little research then and found that was either 1) a emergency shutdown button pushed, or 2) a bad controller. I did not have time until today to investigate more.

Oil level is good. Disconnected the controller and battery for about an hour. Load tested battery and it's good. Cleaned the terminals anyway. Looked for where in the harness the Kohler emergency shutdown button would be tied in and there is no button installed. Put it all back together and energized, same result. The fault will not clear. No evidence of any corrosion or damage. Opened everything as I did find a mouse nest on top of the engine insulator, but nothing. No droppings, no gnaw marks.

Anyone else seen these symptoms? Am I looking at a controller?
TIA for any feedback.
In the last eight years I have been here I have never been able to get a callback from any "authorized" service company associated with Kohler. I was going to try to contact Kohler but their generator division seems to be under a different flag now! Ugh. Rehlko?

 

[mm08822]

See if this is the correct service manual for your unit:

http://www.fireelectronics.com/docs/Kohler%20Literature/lit/tp6735.pdf

I didn't see any connection for an Estop, but only a remote 2 wire remote start contact.

 

[archtimb]

See if this is the correct service manual for your unit:

http://www.fireelectronics.com/docs/Kohler%20Literature/lit/tp6735.pdf

I didn't see any connection for an Estop, but only a remote 2 wire remote start contact.

That's the one.
And you are correct. The E-stop connection is simply 2 spade terminals (M/F) that you disconnect to place the E-stop in line. I have nothing connected there and the terminals are clean. I have also disconnected the other harnesses and reconnected them in case there was anything flaky there.
Thanks for responding.