Generator GFI will not reset

[madmax908]

My brother in law asked if I could fix a generator he brought home from work.
He's in construction, and like many tools he gets, this one has been used (abused) and was being thrown away.
Its this one https://www.homedepot.com/p/DEWALT-7-000-Watt-Gasoline-Powered-Electric-Start-Portable-Generator-DXGNR7000/206069299

It needs a pull starter, electric start battery, and one of the circuit's (legs?) does not work.
Before investing in the parts it needs (about $100 for the battery and pull starter), I wanted it to work well electrically.

Each circuit has a GFCI outlet, and one of the two will not reset.

After determining there was no power to the outlet, I replaced one of the circuit breakers.
There was now power to the line side of the outlet (120v), but the GFCI would not reset.
I then replaced the GFCI with a new identical one.
There is power to it, but the small indicator light flashes red and will not reset.

Now what? I don't think a new GFCI out of the box would be bad, so I tried one I had lying around the shop.
Same thing, would not reset.

I double checked polarity, grounds, etc. to no avail.

I'm out of ideas as to what could be wrong?!

Anyone have any ideas?

 

[cybrdyke]

Swap in a regular receptacle and see if it works normally.
CD

 

[bigb56]

What are you using to measure power at the GFCI line side? You need to measure line to neutral/ground with a meter or a Wiggy, if you are using a non-contact voltage tester you are only getting 1/2 of the story.

 

[madmax908]

cybrdyke
-If i'm getting 120v at the line in side (at the screw tightened leads), I'm assuming I'll get the same reading with a regular receptacle. I also want to keep the functionality of the GFCI, but simply placing in a non-GFCI receptacle would be easier but IMHO dangerous as the generator will be used outside.

bigb56
-Im using an auto-ranging digital fluke multimeter set to measure AC volts at the line in side. I used the ohm function to find the broken circuit breaker.
I did not measure the line to ground as I figured if the other GFCI worked, the common ground was also working.
I will double check in the morning though.

 

[tyme2par4]

cybrdyke
-If i'm getting 120v at the line in side (at the screw tightened leads), I'm assuming I'll get the same reading with a regular receptacle. I also want to keep the functionality of the GFCI, but simply placing in a non-GFCI receptacle would be easier but IMHO dangerous as the generator will be used outside.

bigb56
-Im using an auto-ranging digital fluke multimeter set to measure AC volts at the line in side. I used the ohm function to find the broken circuit breaker.
I did not measure the line to ground as I figured if the other GFCI worked, the common ground was also working.
I will double check in the morning though.

Try wiring in a regular receptacle, then put a gfci receptacle in a box and add a short piece of wire with a plug. Plug it in and see if that still trips. If it does, you mush have some leakage current somewhere, or maybe a loose neutral wire.

 

[matt_i]

Neutral touching ground will also do it. I had this issue in my shop when the GFI receptacle won't reset. When I pushed an outlet into the box the ground went and touched the neutral screw. As soon as I cleared that up it was all good.

 

[slow]

the one leg not working made me question the gfci not resetting either.

 

[bigb56]

The digital meter could be giving you a phantom reading. As soon as you put a load on it I bet it will go away. Try a wiggy or an incandescent light bulb if you don't own a wiggy.

 

[bigb56]

Neutral touching ground will also do it. I had this issue in my shop when the GFI receptacle won't reset. When I pushed an outlet into the box the ground went and touched the neutral screw. As soon as I cleared that up it was all good.

That would only be the case on the load side and he has no load on it. The GFCI does not know or care about an upstream fault.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Newer GFCI require power to be applied in order to be reset.

 

[slow]

Newer GFCI require power to be applied in order to be reset.

i've got some square D ones that are 25 years old that require power to reset as well.

 

[madmax908]

OK, I really took apart all of the wiring, clipping all of the wire ties to examine all of the wires for breaks, cuts, and loose connections.
I found nothing obvious.

NOTE: The electric panel states "NEUTRAL BONDED TO FRAME"

I noticed that the ground is shared by both circuits/ both GFCI's, and the 240v outlet next to them.
The Neutral is shared by both circuits/ both GFCI's, and the 240v outlet next to them.
The only difference between the two circuits are the two power leads coming from the genset.

tyme2par4, bigb56
I substituted a regular outlet for the gfi, and started the generator.
I got 120v with the multimeter and my wiggy.
If there was a loose white/neutral, why would I get 120v ?

I plugged in my GFCI with a short wire to an electrical plug.
I plugged it into a working circuit in the garage, and was able to get it to set, and it reset/worked well.
I plugged it into the generator and I get the flashing red light.

I see that the two power leads go first to the 240v outlet, through circuit breakers, and then onto the separate GFCI's.

Should I look at/test the twist-lock plug?
How would I do that besides just probing it with the multimeter?
Or should I simply replace it to rule it out?

 

[MikeinNorthWales]

Don't just throw parts at it. Yes, probe the plug to check for voltage.

One more basic question- are the line and neutral wires on the correct terminals on the GFCI?

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

 

[johnyg]

i love a good mystery......when its some one elses !!!! hang in there,these guys will figure it out.

 

[madmax908]

MikeinNorthWales, yes, I double checked upon reading your suggestion.

I fooled with it again after dinner. I thought I had it figured out.

The hot lead comes from the genset, to the 240v outlet, through a breaker and onto the problem GFCI.
I bypassed the 240v outlet and powered the GFCI directly from the genset.
It worked, and the GFCI set, tested and re-set.
Happy me, I re-assembled the generator with the GFCI installed in the panel instead of on a external line as tyme2par4 suggested.

I started the generator again, and the GFCI worked and reset when tested.
Just for giggles, I ran the hot line back through the 240v receptacle, and tried the GFCI.
What do you know, the GFCI still worked!

So now I figure the 240v receptacle is ok, and it was just a loose wire that I apparently tightened.
I re-assemble, and test the GFCI. Red flashing light of death and it won't reset! WTF?!

I gave up for tonight before I started throwing things.

 

[johnyg]

i keep checking in...what did you come up with?????

 

[lakelandcat]

go to the Home Depot http you posted scroll down to cust care 24/7/365. They prob. here this prob. all the time.

 

[madmax908]

I grew tired of trying to find some poorly connected ground that was shared with another circuit that had a working GFCI.

I installed a regular outlet in place of the factory GFCI.
(The removed GFCI reset button is well worn by the previous owner).

I connected the removed GFCI to the non-gfci outlet by way of a short extension cord.
The GFCI (the old worn out one) resets without any problem.

I give up.

I will warn my BIL that only one GFCI works.
He's in the process of having a new service panel installed, with a transfer switch for the generator.
That means he will use the 240v outlet the majority of the time, and won't have a need for the 2nd GFCI.

I am very glad I have a https://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/em5000

Again, thanks to all that helped me brain storm this problem

 

[johnyg]

hey,you tried.