Generator Install

[killer cougar]

I know this topic has been beaten to death but it seems everybody's situation is different. After running cords through the house this week for Dorian it's time to install an interlock kit.

I know I'll need to move one of the bottom breakers to the other side to fit the 30 amp breaker for the generator and interlock kit. Should be able to just pull it and move it over, correct? Pigtail in panel of needed to reach. Plan on running L14-30 inlet plug below the panel. Wiring would be G-ground, W-neutral, R-breaker, B-breaker, correct?

Pretty sure that covers it. I miss anything?

Thanks!




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[mm08822]

Your panel appears to have no free spaces. You need to add two tandems to free up room for the 2 pole 30a cb for gen inlet.

Otherwise, sounds like you know what needs to be done. Use #10 from pib to panel.

 

[brewchief]

Your panel appears to have no free spaces. You need to add two tandems to free up room for the 2 pole 30a cb for gen inlet.

Otherwise, sounds like you know what needs to be done. Use #10 from pib to panel.

I'm thinking that there are two empty spaces at the bottom of the panel, if so simply moving the breaker to the other side will work.

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[killer cougar]

I'm thinking that there are two empty spaces at the bottom of the panel, if so simply moving the breaker to the other side will work.

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Your right in that there are two empty spaces on the bottom, one on each side.

Now to go buy some stuff and get to work. Thanks guys!


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[PRH44]

Killer do you plan on installing a small manual transfer switch?

 

[killer cougar]

Killer do you plan on installing a small manual transfer switch?

The plan is to use an interlock kit and then mark the breakers that are allowed to be turned on, so it's not overloaded. I'll also put notes in the panel in case someone other than myself needs to hook up the generator. No suicide cords or illegal back feeding here. I know a few lineman that have cut house feeds and then come back to them last because they were back feeding. Safety first! Long term I'll probably have a whole house system installed with an automatic transfer switch and natural gas Kohler generator.

https://www.menards.com/main/electr...l-interlock-kit/brpmikcsr/p-1531117749166.htm


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[theoldwizard1]

The plan is to use an interlock kit and then mark the breakers that are allowed to be turned on, so it's not overloaded. I'll also put notes in the panel in case someone other than myself needs to hook up the generator.

Interlock kits are the way to go !

The only ones you will likely have to turn off are the 240V breakers. If you are "sensible" with the rest of the loads you will be fine.

I could not read the labels, but if you have an electric water heater, you could use it in "batch" mode. Heat up a tank, turn it off, shower, wash, etc. Just don't kick on to many other 120V loads.

Post an "after" picture, one without the cover and one with for those who still do not understand what and interlock is.

 

[yeldogt]

The plan is to use an interlock kit and then mark the breakers that are allowed to be turned on, so it's not overloaded. I'll also put notes in the panel in case someone other than myself needs to hook up the generator. No suicide cords or illegal back feeding here. I know a few lineman that have cut house feeds and then come back to them last because they were back feeding. Safety first! Long term I'll probably have a whole house system installed with an automatic transfer switch and natural gas Kohler generator.

https://www.menards.com/main/electr...l-interlock-kit/brpmikcsr/p-1531117749166.htm


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That looks like a decent one.

The interpretation of code seems to allow different options. In some areas you have to use one made by the panel maker -- in other areas -- they are not allowed.

It seems ... like everything else the more rural one is the more this is not an issue.

 

[mm08822]

Your panel appears to have no free spaces. You need to add two tandems to free up room for the 2 pole 30a cb for gen inlet.

Otherwise, sounds like you know what needs to be done. Use #10 from pib to panel.

My bad. I see the available stab now that I am not on my cell phone.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

That looks like a decent one.

The interpretation of code seems to allow different options. In some areas you have to use one made by the panel maker -- in other areas -- they are not allowed.

It seems ... like everything else the more rural one is the more this is not an issue.

Actually code is clear on this.

The interlock must be listed and labeled for use with the particular panel. There is nothing to waver on the interpretation.

As far as some areas or AHJs not allowing them, that would mean they have local written amendments....

 

[yeldogt]

Actually code is clear on this.

The interlock must be listed and labeled for use with the particular panel. There is nothing to waver on the interpretation.

As far as some areas or AHJs not allowing them, that would mean they have local written amendments....

Well .. it's around. You can get into a ******* match with the code official .. but unless you really want to push something they have control.

The "listed with particular panel" I'm sure is a problem. Many are not made by the panel maker.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Well .. it's around. You can get into a ******* match with the code official .. but unless you really want to push something they have control.

The "listed with particular panel" I'm sure is a problem. Many are not made by the panel maker.

If an inspector cites something that is not code, then a complaint can be filed with the AHJ. Inspectors do get in trouble for making stuff up.

A part does not need to be made by the panel maker for it to be listed and labeled for use with the panel. Thats not how listings work.

 

[dcg9381]

If an inspector cites something that is not code, then a complaint can be filed with the AHJ..

Last residence, AHJ was the city. Electrical inspector worked for the city and was considered the "expert". Other than going to the city manager (who isn't an electrical guy) there is no escalation. Lawsuit is the only option...

As such, keeping the inspectors happy - especially in small jurisdictions is very important.

Some are reasonable and will discuss their point of view or accept that they've made a mistake. Some, not so much...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sounds like a lawsuit is in order then.

An inspector cannot make you do something that is NOT code. Its literally not enforceable.

But if youre the type that likes to bend over then by all means...

 

[mm08822]

That looks like a decent one.

The interpretation of code seems to allow different options. In some areas you have to use one made by the panel maker -- in other areas -- they are not allowed.

It seems ... like everything else the more rural one is the more this is not an issue.

You and I already had this chat 9 mos ago. It is bs if an inspector rejects a listed product that is properly installed according to mfr instructions with the equipment it is listed for use with.

Maybe I need to provide proof that the interlock is listed for use with that equipment, but once I do, he's done with story time.

Unless the town has specifically adopted an ordinance prohibiting the use of interlocks, then good luck telling me "no". If the town did adopt such an ordinance, I would contact the mfrs and let them run the townees through the mill.

 

[mm08822]

Last residence, AHJ was the city. Electrical inspector worked for the city and was considered the "expert". Other than going to the city manager (who isn't an electrical guy) there is no escalation. Lawsuit is the only option...

As such, keeping the inspectors happy - especially in small jurisdictions is very important.

Some are reasonable and will discuss their point of view or accept that they've made a mistake. Some, not so much...

An "expert" inspector is someone who can site reasons and the adopted code code that supports his enforcement practice. He is not the law maker - only the enforcer. The allure of "expert" is easy to propagate to others who don't know the subject. Some of these guys think they have carved out a piece of land that is their kingdom - wrong!

The inspector got his license from some office in the state. That's the place to go raise a complaint. Forget telling Andy that Barney is FOS. If Barney can't support his position on a topic and you have enough supporting facts to prove otherwise , go for it.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Yeah sometimes they have to be reminded that there job is to enforce the code not make it.
Do HVAC work whenever I ran into one of those guys I was always quick with "show me, show me in the code book where it says I can't do that". Sometimes they were actually bold enough to say "well I can't but your not doing that in my township".

 

[mrobins297aaa]

The plan is to use an interlock kit and then mark the breakers that are allowed to be turned on, so it's not overloaded. I'll also put notes in the panel in case someone other than myself needs to hook up the generator. No suicide cords or illegal back feeding here. I know a few lineman that have cut house feeds and then come back to them last because they were back feeding. Safety first! Long term I'll probably have a whole house system installed with an automatic transfer switch and natural gas Kohler generator.

https://www.menards.com/main/electr...l-interlock-kit/brpmikcsr/p-1531117749166.htm


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I got some orange sticky dots to mark the breakers that could be turned on with the generator.

Couple of other things that I ran into, I'm out in the country and when the power goes out during the day it was hard to tell when it was back on, other than switching the inter lock back and forth every so often, so I ended up getting a thing called power back (it's on the upper right coming out of the side of my panel, it has a wire that wraps around the in coming feed and when it senses power it sets off a alarm to let you know the power is back on. It worked ok but it was so far from the up stairs I couldn't hear it. So I ended up getting one of those baby monitors so I could hear it up stairs.

 

[larry4406]

I got some orange sticky dots to mark the breakers that could be turned on with the generator.

Couple of other things that I ran into, I'm out in the country and when the power goes out during the day it was hard to tell when it was back on, other than switching the inter lock back and forth every so often, so I ended up getting a thing called power back (it's on the upper right coming out of the side of my panel, it has a wire that wraps around the in coming feed and when it senses power it sets off a alarm to let you know the power is back on. It worked ok but it was so far from the up stairs I couldn't hear it. So I ended up getting one of those baby monitors so I could hear it up stairs.

I too will be doing the interlock approach along with the sticky dots for the critical breakers. I see you have the Reliance meters to measure the watts/amps per leg (depending on how the gauge is marked); I want to do similar. The Power Back alarm is also on my to do list.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

It's not that much more money to get a proper transfer switch when you're buying the interlock kit, power meters, "power back", baby monitor, etc.

What's the advantage of an interlock here? Seems a transfer switch would fit your needs better.

 

[larry4406]

It's not that much more money to get a proper transfer switch when you're buying the interlock kit, power meters, "power back", baby monitor, etc.

What's the advantage of an interlock here? Seems a transfer switch would fit your needs better.

In my case generator is paid for and in the garage.

Interlock allows me to manually select loads. Optional meters aid this.

Whole house generator needs to carry 100% of house and or use load shed relays. Transfer switch means power outage to jerk meter and install.

So in my case, $$$$

 

[killer cougar]

In my case generator is paid for and in the garage.



Interlock allows me to manually select loads. Optional meters aid this.



Whole house generator needs to carry 100% of house and or use load shed relays. Transfer switch means power outage to jerk meter and install.



So in my case, $$$$

I'm in the same boat.

I've got a 5500 watt generator already, which will easily power everything in the house but the HVAC and dryer. Hot water, stove, and oven are all gas.

So when the power goes out I simply roll out and start the generator, switch the breakers off, plug it into the 30 amp plug and then slowly switch back on each breaker except for the HVAC and dryer.




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[slow]

Who makes a proper transfer switch for use with a portable generator that has utility power status and meters? I haven't seen any, but maybe I am not looking for the right thing.

 

[yeldogt]

You and I already had this chat 9 mos ago. It is bs if an inspector rejects a listed product that is properly installed according to mfr instructions with the equipment it is listed for use with.

Maybe I need to provide proof that the interlock is listed for use with that equipment, but once I do, he's done with story time.

Unless the town has specifically adopted an ordinance prohibiting the use of interlocks, then good luck telling me "no". If the town did adopt such an ordinance, I would contact the mfrs and let them run the townees through the mill.

Guess it comes down to proof -- willingness to push the issue. It's unfortunate .. but some towns and inspectors are impossible. It's a combination of people working together to be difficult .. I own a home in one. Sure -- you can hire an attorney -- have had to with this town now many times over the past 7 years . At $450 an hour .. the two e-mails explaining any situation .. hit $300 and its off from there. It's pick your fights.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

In my case generator is paid for and in the garage.

Interlock allows me to manually select loads. Optional meters aid this.

Whole house generator needs to carry 100% of house and or use load shed relays. Transfer switch means power outage to jerk meter and install.

So in my case, $$$$

I'm not talking about whole house generators.

Have you read about circuit selectable transfer switches at all? They have external power inlets and can work with your existing generator. ID which circuits you want to work in an outage, buy a transfer switch big enough to fit that load, then bobs your uncle. Pick which of those circuits you want to power with your genny, then when the power comes back on, every other circuit in the house gets power.

Might not make sense for you to put one in now that you have your interlock setup, but if you decide to make changes in the future, think about changing over to a manual transfer switch setup.

Who makes a proper transfer switch for use with a portable generator that has utility power status and meters? I haven't seen any, but maybe I am not looking for the right thing.

You don't need utility power status with a selective transfer switch.

Order of operations with a transfer switch:
1. power goes out. whole house dark
2. get portable generator out and cut it on
3. plug generator into transfer switch power inlet
4. switch each circuit on the transfer switch from line-->off-->generator

Boom, now you have circuits being powered by the generator.


When the utility power comes back on, every other circuit in the house gets power, and the circuits you've switched to the generator are still on the generator. Now you disconnect.

1. switch each circuit on the transfer switch from generator-->off-->line
2. cut off generator
3. disconnect generator from transfer switch power inlet
4. put everything away



Reliance controls has a good reputation from what I have read. I have a 15a, 4 circuit manual transfer switch for my house that I am going to power with a Honda eu2200i portable on natural gas/propane. It's the smallest manual transfer switch they offer. Four circuits of lights and a fridge will be plenty to get us through a power outage in relative comfort.

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/reliance-controls-accessories.html


A manual transfer switch like the above is a little more expensive than an interlock kit, wire, and outlet to put a generator on a panel without backfeeding. With an interlock, you have to put stickers on the breakers you can/want to keep on, and you have no idea when the power comes back on without a "powerback" type of thing. Of course you could switch the interlock back to line power, but that's a hassle.

I did a lot of research with Dorian coming through our region recently. With effectively the same money, and a lot less hassle during an outage, I can get safe power to power my essentials with a manual transfer switch.

Final Edit:
For those wanting more detail, watch this video series from Reliance Controls. They are informative and concise.

 

[aunsafe2015]

I'm not talking about whole house generators.

Have you read about circuit selectable transfer switches at all? They have external power inlets and can work with your existing generator. ID which circuits you want to work in an outage, buy a transfer switch big enough to fit that load, then bobs your uncle. Pick which of those circuits you want to power with your genny, then when the power comes back on, every other circuit in the house gets power.

Might not make sense for you to put one in now that you have your interlock setup, but if you decide to make changes in the future, think about changing over to a manual transfer switch setup.



You don't need utility power status with a selective transfer switch.

Order of operations with a transfer switch:
1. power goes out. whole house dark
2. get portable generator out and cut it on
3. plug generator into transfer switch power inlet
4. switch each circuit on the transfer switch from line-->off-->generator

Boom, now you have circuits being powered by the generator.


When the utility power comes back on, every other circuit in the house gets power, and the circuits you've switched to the generator are still on the generator. Now you disconnect.

1. switch each circuit on the transfer switch from generator-->off-->line
2. cut off generator
3. disconnect generator from transfer switch power inlet
4. put everything away



Reliance controls has a good reputation from what I have read. I have a 15a, 4 circuit manual transfer switch for my house that I am going to power with a Honda eu2200i portable on natural gas/propane. It's the smallest manual transfer switch they offer. Four circuits of lights and a fridge will be plenty to get us through a power outage in relative comfort.

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/power/reliance-controls-accessories.html


A manual transfer switch like the above is a little more expensive than an interlock kit, wire, and outlet to put a generator on a panel without backfeeding. With an interlock, you have to put stickers on the breakers you can/want to keep on, and you have no idea when the power comes back on without a "powerback" type of thing. Of course you could switch the interlock back to line power, but that's a hassle.

I did a lot of research with Dorian coming through our region recently. With effectively the same money, and a lot less hassle during an outage, I can get safe power to power my essentials with a manual transfer switch.

Final Edit:
For those wanting more detail, watch this video series from Reliance Controls. They are informative and concise.

So is the only benefit of your manual transfer switch setup that you automatically get notified of when the power grid comes back on?

For me, the benefit of having every circuit in my panel available for generator power would probably be more desirable. With manual transfer switch you choose your circuits when installing the switch and are stuck with those circuits, right?

 

[slow]

Yes, all circuits must be pre selected. In the past, my parents have used both the pool pump and water heater off a generator during a long power outage using the interlock kit. This would not be likely with a Reliance type setup unless you selected those items at the time of install.

The other pros, is it is really the only "right" way to install a 120 volt generator to feed house circuits. There are some other non traditional benefits, ie you can run a single circuit on an inverter or other power supply even with the grid on or off. For that reason alone, I had considered installing a reliance panel for my refrigerators and lighting/fans. even though I have an interlock kit for my main outside breaker. This would allow me to run those items using my 1000 watt sine inverter and battery bank during a storm, and then fire up the generator after the hurricane.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

So is the only benefit of your manual transfer switch setup that you automatically get notified of when the power grid comes back on?

For me, the benefit of having every circuit in my panel available for generator power would probably be more desirable. With manual transfer switch you choose your circuits when installing the switch and are stuck with those circuits, right?

This^^^ is a big item, Even though I have the orange stickers on the circuits they are only there for someone that doesn't know what circuits can be on with the generator. I don't touch them, I basically only turn off 3 240v circuits that I know I can't run, my dryer, oven and AC. Everything else has power available to it, even the circuits in my barn if need be.
I have a Generac 7500. I have had it for 5 years and it's worked out well, when the power goes out it takes less than 15 minutes to roll the generator out of the garage, plug it in and switch the interlock. No extension cords to fool with

 

[dcg9381]

I've got a 5500 watt generator already, which will easily power everything in the house but the HVAC and dryer. Hot water, stove, and oven are all gas.

So when the power goes out I simply roll out and start the generator, switch the breakers off, plug it into the 30 amp plug and then slowly switch back on each breaker except for the HVAC and dryer.

Actually done it? I was unpleasantly surprised when I bought a 5500 watt generator and expected to be able to power a 30A of 120V.

The catch:
The 120V output had a 20A circuit breaker, tripped at 18 watts continuous. Pretty standard.

The 240V outlet was actually on an 18A circuit breaker - so using the 240V outlet, you actually had less power on each leg before the breaker would trip. It'd trip at about 15 continuous on either leg.

This generator would power up my MIG welder for small jobs, but really couldn't power my 30A @ 120V RV.

Downsizing to a 4400 watt generator with a 30A 120V circuit actually provided more "useful power" for the RV application.

Check what size circuit breaker you've got internally..

 

[dcg9381]

With manual transfer switch you choose your circuits when installing the switch and are stuck with those circuits, right?

Correct, with a manual transfer setup.


There is another option - it's a generator "lock out" (interlock) setup which simply prevents the main breaker and the generator breaker from being in the "ON" position at the same time.


Basically, once you "lock out" the main, turn on the generator breaker, then the rest of the panel is on "manual transfer" - you choose which circuits get turned on/off. Downside is that you can obviously over-load the genset.

 

[exranger06]

It cost me less than $300 to buy everything to hook up my generator, including the interlock kit, generator breaker, power inlet, power back alarm, and all the wiring and fittings I needed. The interlock kit gives me the freedom to use any circuit I want. The power back alarm lets me know when the power is back on without having to switch or touch anything. I don't need any baby monitor for it; that thing is LOUD and I can easily hear it anywhere in the house.

 

[slow]

Actually done it? I was unpleasantly surprised when I bought a 5500 watt generator and expected to be able to power a 30A of 120V.

The catch:
The 120V output had a 20A circuit breaker, tripped at 18 watts continuous. Pretty standard.

The 240V outlet was actually on an 18A circuit breaker - so using the 240V outlet, you actually had less power on each leg before the breaker would trip. It'd trip at about 15 continuous on either leg.

This generator would power up my MIG welder for small jobs, but really couldn't power my 30A @ 120V RV.

Downsizing to a 4400 watt generator with a 30A 120V circuit actually provided more "useful power" for the RV application.

Check what size circuit breaker you've got internally..

unless the generator has a 120/240 setting, or is a 120 volt only generator, any 120 volt load will typically only be 1/2 of the "rating" As you said, this is an issue when powering 30 amp 120 volt RV's, and why paralleling the small inverters generators are so popular.

 

[PRH44]

Interlocks are available for about any panel manufacturer
https://www.geninterlock.com/manufacturers/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyb2--arM5AIVkf_jBx0zKQJ3EAAYASAAEgJqmPD_BwE

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It's not that much more money to get a proper transfer switch when you're buying the interlock kit, power meters, "power back", baby monitor, etc.

What's the advantage of an interlock here? Seems a transfer switch would fit your needs better.

Actually a service rated transfer switch can cost a lot of money when the cost of permits and PoCo fees are factored in.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Actually a service rated transfer switch can cost a lot of money when the cost of permits and PoCo fees are factored in.

Technically you'd need a permit (in many jurisdictions anyway) to put an interlock, and generator circuit, so I don't see your point.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Everything else has power available to it, even the circuits in my barn if need be.

That is a disadvantage of a manual transfer switch, yes. You would have a finite number of circuits that can be switched to generator.

To each his own, but I don't see the use of going down to the breaker box, flipping off one, on another, to be able to power a circuit for a few minutes, then back down, flip one off, another on, to get power back where you were. Flexible, absolutely, I guess I just don't need that kind of flexibility.

 

[dcg9381]

Guess it depends on what sort of generator you're running off of... 4000-5000 watts, I'd want to be able to decide what I'm going to power up at the time in the event of an extended outage.

 

[GLTHFJ60]

Guess it depends on what sort of generator you're running off of... 4000-5000 watts, I'd want to be able to decide what I'm going to power up at the time in the event of an extended outage.

Right, and if you chose an appropriately sized transfer switch (mine is really small) then you could have 8-14 circuits powered by a generator.

Still, it's not as flexible as choosing on the fly with an interlock. That's what I didn't appreciate before.

Example, transfer switch suitable for up to 7500w of generated power. They get even bigger than this.

https://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/Reliance-Controls-A310C-SD/p73190.html

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Technically you'd need a permit (in many jurisdictions anyway) to put an interlock, and generator circuit, so I don't see your point.

The difference is, people can get away with putting an interlock in without a permit.

Cant do that when the power needs to be disconnected.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

That is a disadvantage of a manual transfer switch, yes. You would have a finite number of circuits that can be switched to generator.

To each his own, but I don't see the use of going down to the breaker box, flipping off one, on another, to be able to power a circuit for a few minutes, then back down, flip one off, another on, to get power back where you were. Flexible, absolutely, I guess I just don't need that kind of flexibility.

well I'm not doing any of that, I leave all the circuits on except for the 240v circuits that I know I can't run, AC, oven and dryer. I have a 100 amp breaker for my barn that I leave on (there's nothing out there that runs unless I'm out there)..........now that with a little common sense and it works out good.
There's only two of us here and so far with 7500 watts I have not tripped the breaker on the generator or the panel, just going about everyday things, out in the garage turning lights on or opening the garage doors, coffee pots in the kitchen, computers, led tv's and so on. Most of that stuff doesn't use very many watts anyway. It just needs some available.