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Generator powering house from shop?

MushCreek

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Having had several power outages over the years, I'd like to figure out how to better use my Honda 6500 watt generator. The easy way would be to connect it to the panel in my shop and feed it back to the house. I could shut off the main house breaker so as to not accidentally energize the grid. Why would I do it this way? There's not a good place to set up the generator at the house. The outdoor breaker box is on a hillside, and exposed to the weather. I'd like a level, sheltered spot for the generator. The last time, I had the generator on the driveway with 100' extension cords, plugging and unplugging things as needed. It sure would be nice to power the whole house and just shut off various circuits so I don't overload the generator. The downsides would be having to trudge out to the shop to run the generator, plus electrical loss(?) due to the 150' distance.

The alternative would be to put the generator under my back deck and wire up a circuit back to my main panel with a transfer switch to prevent energizing the grid. That route will cost a lot more due to the cost of running about 50' of heavy wire. Thoughts?
 
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Leaflessshadetree

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An interlock switch, breaker, and connection point isn't that expensive even with 50ft of wire. If I recall mine was less than $100 but I had wire left over from another circuit.
 

ddurrett896

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30 amp breaker in shop panel to generator inlet.

Shut off house main, shut off all 30+ amp breakers, turn on generator, turn on 30 amp generator outlet.

Everything 15-20 amp works. Flip on just one 220 breaker at a time.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Having had several power outages over the years, I'd like to figure out how to better use my Honda 6500 watt generator. The easy way would be to connect it to the panel in my shop and feed it back to the house. I could shut off the main house breaker so as to not accidentally energize the grid. Why would I do it this way? There's not a good place to set up the generator at the house. The outdoor breaker box is on a hillside, and exposed to the weather. I'd like a level, sheltered spot for the generator. The last time, I had the generator on the driveway with 100' extension cords, plugging and unplugging things as needed. It sure would be nice to power the whole house and just shut off various circuits so I don't overload the generator. The downsides would be having to trudge out to the shop to run the generator, plus electrical loss(?) due to the 150' distance.

The alternative would be to put the generator under my back deck and wire up a circuit back to my main panel with a transfer switch to prevent energizing the grid. That route will cost a lot more due to the cost of running about 50' of heavy wire. Thoughts?

30 amp breaker in shop panel to generator inlet.

Shut off house main, shut off all 30+ amp breakers, turn on generator, turn on 30 amp generator outlet.

Everything 15-20 amp works. Flip on just one 220 breaker at a time.
Doing it this way leaves too much room for error and potentially fatal outcome.... do it right... interlock or transfer switch... and many PoCos will cut your drop if they see you have generator hooked up to your service without the proper setup... dont go the wrong route because youre too cheap or lazy to do it properly...
 

PCustoms

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....PoCos will cut your drop if they see you have generator hooked up to your service without the proper setup... dont go the wrong route because youre too cheap or lazy to do it properly...
Not discounting the need to have proper (listed) hookup, but how the hell is the POCO going to know?

My interlock is in the main panel in the garage. It's fed buy an outlet by the man door. All legal, bit from outside no real way to know that....
 

AP514

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wyliesdiesels

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Not discounting the need to have proper (listed) hookup, but how the hell is the POCO going to know?

My interlock is in the main panel in the garage. It's fed buy an outlet by the man door. All legal, bit from outside no real way to know that....
In your case, the only way they would know is if they find voltage on the line.

But many houses have main service panels on the outside or meter mains with a disconnect on the outside so...
 

Innovate1

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If the shop is a subpanel off the house there is no way to do a proper interlock without another set of conductors back to the main panel. The interlock has to go in the main panel to interlock the main breaker. Just pointing this out and it looks like the OP is already aware of that.
 

gmcgeo

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30 amp breaker in shop panel to generator inlet.

Shut off house main, shut off all 30+ amp breakers, turn on generator, turn on 30 amp generator outlet.

Everything 15-20 amp works. Flip on just one 220 breaker at a time.
I do it this way. however i know what i need to do. now if my wife had to do it...... well i now need that switch
 
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MushCreek

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AP514- Thanks for the link. In addition to that, I need a cord to go outside and plug into the generator. It's going to have to be heavy-duty, and an L14-30 plug. I'd probably house that in some kind of box on the side of the house. I also have to figure out how to not accidentally energize that male plug!
 

Smiles79

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Yeah, I guess if it's worth doing, it's worth doing right. I expect it will cost a lot more than $100, though.
I estimate a little under $350 for the interlock, inlet, wiring to the panel, 2-pole 30A breaker, 20ft L14-30 cable, and a L5-30P end since my generator is only 120v. From the inlet to the house will be wired as if I were using a 240V generator. I'm going to connect the two hots in the cable in the L5-30P end that I'll be putting on the cable so it will power both sides of the panel. If one day I get a 240V generator, all I need to do is put the L14-30P end back on and I'm good to go.

Edit: That's for 75 ft of 10-3 nm-b which is probably way more than I need. I haven't moved in to the house yet though so I wanted to be conservative in my cost estimation.
 

klassenl

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.... many PoCos will cut your drop if they see you have generator hooked up to your service without the proper setup... dont go the wrong route because youre too cheap or lazy to do it properly...
Do you have some precedent or proof of this. Perhaps a news article or white sheet from a utility.
 

PCustoms

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Up here in the northeast I don't think I have ever seen n outdoor panel or disconnect.

Having lived through 2 multi week outages, I was always told if there was voltage on a "dead" line they would trace it to you, cut the line and then charge you for a hookup once the rest of the issues were resolved.

All that aside, do it right.
 
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infinkc

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Just curious what actually will happen if someone fed their main with a generator and didn’t have a disconnect during an outage, and the power came back on? I see everyone saying you need an interlock, but I know there are dumb people out there just cutting 2 extension cords and splicing so there are male ends to connect a generator.
 

wyliesdiesels

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Just curious what actually will happen if someone fed their main with a generator and didn’t have a disconnect during an outage, and the power came back on? I see everyone saying you need an interlock, but I know there are dumb people out there just cutting 2 extension cords and splicing so there are male ends to connect a generator.
worst case scenario? generator fire and house burns down
 

89MustangGX

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AP514- Thanks for the link. In addition to that, I need a cord to go outside and plug into the generator. It's going to have to be heavy-duty, and an L14-30 plug. I'd probably house that in some kind of box on the side of the house. I also have to figure out how to not accidentally energize that male plug!
That's actually the point of the interlock. It installs in your main panel and makes it physically impossible to have the main and the generator breaker ever on at the same time. Simple device that solves major potential problems.

As far as the cords go, you can buy them ready made or make them yourself. The local big box stores will have something like SJOOW in 10 gauge 4 conductor that will make a cord that will last a lifetime even if you need to use it in bad weather. The ends are not difficult to correctly put on if you follow the directions and have some basic tools. You can also get those at the same store. Just make the cord a little longer than you think so you have some flexibility. Oh, and you will need a generator inlet box as well.

Other than the interlock, the setup is essentially the same as adding any other 240v circuit, which isn't all that different than adding a 120v circuit. If you can do that, you can do this.

There are a lot of people here who will help you do it the right way if you get stuck or just have questions along the way.
 
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MushCreek

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I've found the cheapest source for a cord is often an RV cord. That's what I used to make a 25' cord for my welder. It was significantly cheaper than buying 10/4 SJ at the big box store. I know how to do all of the electrical stuff; I wired my entire house.
 
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MushCreek

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OK, I see how the interlocks work. Pretty simple, really, considering they get $70 for one. I could easily make one out of sheet metal I have lying around. An interlock is specifically for using a generator; not normal residential stuff, so I wasn't read up on them.

The cheapest route for me would be to put the generator on my front porch, which brings me within 20' of where the power enters the house. I can get a 25' generator cord with an L14-30 plug on it for $40. All I have to do is figure out how to rig up some kind of enclosure for an outlet. I need to wire in the generator to the indoor panel, because I don't have any open spaces on the outdoor one (it only has two). In the enclosure, I'd have to have an L14-30 male plug to plug into the RV cord. Since I doubt they make something like that to mount as a receptacle, I guess I could make up a short pigtail with the male plug on it. Plug the female end of the RV cord into the pigtail, plug the male end of the RV cord into the generator, and move the interlock. Since the interlock prevents energizing the generator circuit, it should be safe.

The generator will be kind of noisy on the front porch, but I only run it an hour or so at a time as needed. I have CO alarms in the house, so I'm not worried about fumes if someone opens a window.

Another dumb question- When you switch over to generator power, and so the main is shut off, how do you know when the power comes back on? Just check it periodically?
 

quickfarms

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Doing it this way leaves too much room for error and potentially fatal outcome.... do it right... interlock or transfer switch... and many PoCos will cut your drop if they see you have generator hooked up to your service without the proper setup... dont go the wrong route because youre too cheap or lazy to do it properly...
In California all that is required if for the main breaker to be turned off, this is how the law reads.

I have had my house on the generator during a power outage and they checked the transformer and walked up the driveway to the panel, yes it is outside, and complemented me on doing it correctly and putting a lockout on the main breaker.

the transfer switch, or interlock, is for people that do not understand electricity and the dangers.

if you install a generator inlet plug, make in a box, you do need the interlock or transfer switch to prevent it from being energized accidentally
 

wyliesdiesels

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In California all that is required if for the main breaker to be turned off, this is how the law reads.

I have had my house on the generator during a power outage and they checked the transformer and walked up the driveway to the panel, yes it is outside, and complemented me on doing it correctly and putting a lockout on the main breaker.

the transfer switch, or interlock, is for people that do not understand electricity and the dangers.

if you install a generator inlet plug, make in a box, you do need the interlock or transfer switch to prevent it from being energized accidentally
What law are you referring to?

Who is they?
 

dave*99

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OK, I see how the interlocks work. Pretty simple, really, considering they get $70 for one. I could easily make one out of sheet metal I have lying around. An interlock is specifically for using a generator; not normal residential stuff, so I wasn't read up on them.

The cheapest route for me would be to put the generator on my front porch, which brings me within 20' of where the power enters the house. I can get a 25' generator cord with an L14-30 plug on it for $40. All I have to do is figure out how to rig up some kind of enclosure for an outlet. I need to wire in the generator to the indoor panel, because I don't have any open spaces on the outdoor one (it only has two). In the enclosure, I'd have to have an L14-30 male plug to plug into the RV cord. Since I doubt they make something like that to mount as a receptacle, I guess I could make up a short pigtail with the male plug on it. Plug the female end of the RV cord into the pigtail, plug the male end of the RV cord into the generator, and move the interlock. Since the interlock prevents energizing the generator circuit, it should be safe.

The generator will be kind of noisy on the front porch, but I only run it an hour or so at a time as needed. I have CO alarms in the house, so I'm not worried about fumes if someone opens a window.

Another dumb question- When you switch over to generator power, and so the main is shut off, how do you know when the power comes back on? Just check it periodically?
Is this what you are looking for?
1643126612549.png
 

89MustangGX

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OK, I see how the interlocks work. Pretty simple, really, considering they get $70 for one. I could easily make one out of sheet metal I have lying around. An interlock is specifically for using a generator; not normal residential stuff, so I wasn't read up on them.
It really feels like you are fighting to understand this when it's all easy to do the right way. There is no rigging things up or building custom things needed. The interlock is manufactured for your specific panel and meets code. You install the interlock in your first panel - not a sub panel. Use a generator inlet box (plug on side of house, not receptacle). No need to make up a suicide cord (called that for a reason). Buy or build a cord long enough to put the generator in a safe location. That's all there is to it. Hope this doesn't come across the wrong way, but it's done this way for safety. Please be safe.
 
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MushCreek

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I didn't know that there was such thing as a generator inlet box. Thanks! The interlock can't go in my 'first' panel, which is outdoors. Technically, My indoor panel is a subpanel, but it does have a main breaker. I was made to do it this way because the meter and indoor panel are offset by about a foot. If it's straight through, you don't need the outdoor panel, but if it is offset even a little, it becomes a subpanel. I couldn't go straight through or the meter would have been too close to the ground. I'm not crazy about having an outdoor disconnect, because a bad guy or prankster could shut my power off, and you're not allowed to lock it.

AT any rate, if the generator breaker and interlock are inside, there's no way for it to backfeed the grid.
 

wyliesdiesels

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OK, I see how the interlocks work. Pretty simple, really, considering they get $70 for one. I could easily make one out of sheet metal I have lying around. An interlock is specifically for using a generator; not normal residential stuff, so I wasn't read up on them.

The cheapest route for me would be to put the generator on my front porch, which brings me within 20' of where the power enters the house. I can get a 25' generator cord with an L14-30 plug on it for $40. All I have to do is figure out how to rig up some kind of enclosure for an outlet. I need to wire in the generator to the indoor panel, because I don't have any open spaces on the outdoor one (it only has two). In the enclosure, I'd have to have an L14-30 male plug to plug into the RV cord. Since I doubt they make something like that to mount as a receptacle, I guess I could make up a short pigtail with the male plug on it. Plug the female end of the RV cord into the pigtail, plug the male end of the RV cord into the generator, and move the interlock. Since the interlock prevents energizing the generator circuit, it should be safe.

The generator will be kind of noisy on the front porch, but I only run it an hour or so at a time as needed. I have CO alarms in the house, so I'm not worried about fumes if someone opens a window.

Another dumb question- When you switch over to generator power, and so the main is shut off, how do you know when the power comes back on? Just check it periodically?
That wouldnt be code compliant.

Also, generators are normal residential items so I’m not sure i follow you there
 

dave*99

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What law are you referring to?

Who is they?
I can't speak for California, but Nevada requirements are here:

And in fact they do state:

1.  Any portable generator of electricity capable of being connected temporarily to an electrical system that is normally furnished electricity by a public utility may be connected only after the main switch of the system has been opened to isolate that electrical system from the public utility’s system for distribution of electricity.

That being said, this law is part of the state regulatory system. Not part of the electrical codes enforced by the AHJ. And we could go down the rabbit hole about penalties and violations, etc. (no thanks) The parts to do the job right are widely available, economically priced etc.

Further, I DO understand electricity and the dangers involved. So my portable generator is connected through a proper generator inlet and an interlock in the main panel.
 

wyliesdiesels

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I didn't know that there was such thing as a generator inlet box. Thanks! The interlock can't go in my 'first' panel, which is outdoors. Technically, My indoor panel is a subpanel, but it does have a main breaker. I was made to do it this way because the meter and indoor panel are offset by about a foot. If it's straight through, you don't need the outdoor panel, but if it is offset even a little, it becomes a subpanel. I couldn't go straight through or the meter would have been too close to the ground. I'm not crazy about having an outdoor disconnect, because a bad guy or prankster could shut my power off, and you're not allowed to lock it.

AT any rate, if the generator breaker and interlock are inside, there's no way for it to backfeed the grid.
People often bring this up but having lived in california all my life where 99% of homes have a meter main service panel with branch breakers or meter with disconnect, on the outside of the home, I can say that the scenario you brought up NEVER happens here.

My in laws live in a large 2 story house with a 200a service. The main panel (only panel) is on one side of the house and easily accessible to anyone as its not locked yet no prankster in 20+ years has ever shut off any of the breakers... same for the houses ive rented, so.....
 
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MushCreek

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Generators are certainly becoming a lot more common. It wasn't all that long ago that few people had them, other than a small one that they used with extension cords. I've only had need for mine once in the last eight years. I'm sure there's a section in the NEC about them, but I never looked at it, as I didn't have a need (until now.) Yeah, I suppose a homemade interlock isn't code. I'm sure everything in everyone's house is code compliant (sarcasm emoji). Just seems like a rip-off for what it is.
 

Leaflessshadetree

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Don't ask.
Another dumb question- When you switch over to generator power, and so the main is shut off, how do you know when the power comes back I on? Just check it periodically?
I call my power company to report an outage and find out any status or estimate. They have a system that calls me to notify that power is back on.
If it is dark out I see that the street light is on.

Just curious what actually will happen if someone fed their main with a generator and didn’t have a disconnect during an outage, and the power came back on? I see everyone saying you need an interlock, but I know there are dumb people out there just cutting 2 extension cords and splicing so there are male ends to connect a generator.
Worst case is that your generator is powering the grid and your neighbors houses. The transformer is boosting your 240V to a much higher voltage (I think 7200V). Think of how this can impact the guys trying to fix whatever the issue is.
 

quickfarms

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We are currently on generator power because of an accident that took out a pole

I know the power is back on when the street lights that are powered from our transformer are on or you can look at the new meter to see if there is anything on the display
 
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MushCreek

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At night we would see lights, although we are pretty far from any street lights. I could see the automatic lights on my barn because they are on the other side of my house main, but again, only if it's dark out. I guess I'd just go out and look at the meter. We're in a rural area, so we don't get any notifications from the POCO.
 

75gmck25

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Another issue is to ensure you don't exceed the capacity of your generator. Telling everyone to not turn on the A/C when the house is on generator doesn't mean they won't try running the A/C, microwave and a hair dryer all at the same time off your 2kw generator.

One suggestion I've seen to accomodate a small generator is to install a sub-panel that has your "critical" circuits (refrigerator, some lights, etc.) and then install the generator interlock on that sub-panel. If you need to switch to generator it would disconnect the sub-panel from the main panel and the generator will only be able to power those specific circuits. Is there any reason this would not be code-compliant?
 
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MushCreek

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I am curious about just what the generator can handle. It's supposedly 6500 watts. Theoretically, that should run my water heater. The HVAC units are only 10 amps, or about 2400 watts. The last time we lost power, we cycled between keeping the fridge and freezer cold, and typical tasks like making coffee in the morning. I didn't have a hook-up for 240V., so I didn't try the water heater. We'll really only need the HVAC if we lose power in the dead of winter, like an ice storm. No A/C is an inconvenience, but we could survive it.
 

89MustangGX

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Another issue is to ensure you don't exceed the capacity of your generator. Telling everyone to not turn on the A/C when the house is on generator doesn't mean they won't try running the A/C, microwave and a hair dryer all at the same time off your 2kw generator.

One suggestion I've seen to accomodate a small generator is to install a sub-panel that has your "critical" circuits (refrigerator, some lights, etc.) and then install the generator interlock on that sub-panel. If you need to switch to generator it would disconnect the sub-panel from the main panel and the generator will only be able to power those specific circuits. Is there any reason this would not be code-compliant?

Even if this were code compliant, which I don't think it is, I don't see the point. The whole idea with the interlock is so you can turn on what you want without a separate transfer panel limiting you. So you are essentially saying you want to have the AC breaker in a separate panel so you don't turn it on, instead of just not turning it on.
 

Noltz

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Generators are certainly becoming a lot more common. It wasn't all that long ago that few people had them, other than a small one that they used with extension cords. I've only had need for mine once in the last eight years. I'm sure there's a section in the NEC about them, but I never looked at it, as I didn't have a need (until now.) Yeah, I suppose a homemade interlock isn't code. I'm sure everything in everyone's house is code compliant (sarcasm emoji). Just seems like a rip-off for what it is.
They definitely are because of the cheap offshore generators now available. I have one. I'd much rather have a nice Honda or Onan but as luck and funds have it I ended up with a big portable for a really good price. I had the same conversation about interlocks with Wyliesdiesel about a year ago. The cost isn't the material or making it. The cost of the interlock is the certification that "this interlock will not interfere with the normal operation of the rest of the panel". That $70 piece of sheet metal is $20 for the part and $50 for stamp that says your insurance isn't voided if the house burns down. Can you make one? I know I could. But at $300,000 to rebuild my house it's not worth saving $50 over. Consider it a permanent insurance policy.
Another issue is to ensure you don't exceed the capacity of your generator. Telling everyone to not turn on the A/C when the house is on generator doesn't mean they won't try running the A/C, microwave and a hair dryer all at the same time off your 2kw generator.

One suggestion I've seen to accomodate a small generator is to install a sub-panel that has your "critical" circuits (refrigerator, some lights, etc.) and then install the generator interlock on that sub-panel. If you need to switch to generator it would disconnect the sub-panel from the main panel and the generator will only be able to power those specific circuits. Is there any reason this would not be code-compliant?
You're talking about a Generator panel. I've seen 6 and 10 breaker panels like this. They're pretty slick if the house is wired with lighting being on 1 or 2 circuits and the appliances you need are on the remainder. I couldn't do that with my weird house wiring. You might save $100 by going with a sub panel, interlock kit, and filling it with breakers but having the meters built in and knowing it's built to do exactly this would sell it for me.
I am curious about just what the generator can handle. It's supposedly 6500 watts. Theoretically, that should run my water heater. The HVAC units are only 10 amps, or about 2400 watts. The last time we lost power, we cycled between keeping the fridge and freezer cold, and typical tasks like making coffee in the morning. I didn't have a hook-up for 240V., so I didn't try the water heater. We'll really only need the HVAC if we lose power in the dead of winter, like an ice storm. No A/C is an inconvenience, but we could survive it.
Being a Honda I'd trust it. The literature I looked up just now suggests it's good for 6500 continuous and 7K peak for 10 seconds for starting larger appliances. Very nice unit. You've got the standard twist lock 14L-30 plug on it which is good for 30A (7500w) and fits the majority of inlet plugs. I have one from Generac on the side of my house. And yes your Honda could handle a standard 240v hot water heater which draws about 18A. Top of my head fridges and freezers are about 7A each. Coffee makers are about 8A. The normal loads of my 1800 sq ft house mid-day without AC was 12A. That's multiple computers, kids running TV's and every light in the house turned on. The furnace and gas hot water was on too. Your generator is perfect for an interlock setup. In my house I've marked my breakers with green, yellow and red stickers. Green is go ahead, yellow is on-demand (dishwasher and washing machine), and red is no-go (drier, stove, etc)
 
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MushCreek

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The dryer and the range are the only things that I feel are too big for a generator. As for hot water, we went almost three days, and the water was still warm enough for a quick shower. I could see warming it up once a day in a prolonged outage. All of the lighting in our house is LED, so there certainly wouldn't be much draw there. The last outage we only ran the generator intermittently because is uses a fair amount of gas, and it's a PITA lugging gas cans and getting them filled.
 

CJ7VFR

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Central New Jersey
Another issue is to ensure you don't exceed the capacity of your generator. Telling everyone to not turn on the A/C when the house is on generator doesn't mean they won't try running the A/C, microwave and a hair dryer all at the same time off your 2kw generator.

One suggestion I've seen to accomodate a small generator is to install a sub-panel that has your "critical" circuits (refrigerator, some lights, etc.) and then install the generator interlock on that sub-panel. If you need to switch to generator it would disconnect the sub-panel from the main panel and the generator will only be able to power those specific circuits. Is there any reason this would not be code-compliant?
What you described is called a Manual Transfer Switch. They don't require the use of the interlock breaker, they just wire directly into some of your existing load center wiring/breakers. Most have 6 or 10 breakers (circuits) as Noltz said.

I went with a 10 circuit Manual Transfer Switch to power my home while using our portable generator. I went this route instead of using an Interlock setup for two reasons. First, our local township electrical code does not allow the use of an Interlock, they will only approve transfer switches for powering a home during a power outage. And two, my wife is afraid of the load center and all the electrical stuff. She hates going near it let alone having to open up the cover.

If we had an Interlock she would never go into the panel, flip all the breakers off, then flip the interlock/main breaker to On, then flip back on the breakers we need to power the items we require to stay in the house during a power outage.

She is fine with hooking up the generator, plugging in the cord to the power inlet box on the outside of the house, starting up the generator and then just flipping the 10 switches on the Manual Transfer Switch. This way we have power to our well, septic system, sump pump, the furnace (oil burning), two refrigerators, our main bathroom, our computer room so we have internet, WiFi and tv, our living room and one receptacle on the kitchen counter to power a coffee maker or toaster oven (not at the same time).

I asked her why she was ok with using the generator, and she said it just makes her think of the lawn mower, where she just puts gas in it and starts it up.

Happy wife happy life.

Attached is what mine looks like. I bought it in August 2012 and installed it in during Hurricane Sandy right after our power went out so we could stay in our house. For reference, the power was out for 11 days and this set up worked great.

Jim
 

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