Generator: question on placement and line connection

[joseywales]

We're looking at a 16kW. I'm not installing myself, but often find that if I don't layout a specific plan, the job doesn't go as I'd prefer.

- I can't avoid the 5' distance, since the unit will be near a basement window well, correct?

- We don't live on a flood plane and 98% of rains aren't an issue. But at least once each year, we get neighboring waters more than our property can handle. You guessed it, on the same side of the house where the generator will go. I have an underground drain from the back yard, etc., but the water can run at an extremely high rate and the drains are useless at that point. So, I'm thinking this unit should be elevated, perhaps on a wood platform? As an alternative, I could try to place some landscape and small fencing to divert water.

- Gas line. My relatives just had a 22kW Generac installed. Looks fine, but the gas line connect is above ground, running 5 feet from the house. Don't folks typically bury that line? More expensive to do so, but only 5 feet. It looks like a hazard to me.

 

[sberry]

Yes the line should be buried. It's not that big a deal. For sure set it on blocks if it could be flooded. Turn exhaust away from house for sure but in all reality if it's not plumbed in the window the gas won't be much a deal especially Nat or l.p.. Space is good for fire danger.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Look for a pre-made A/C pad. Usually Styrofoam covered in a light layer of concrete. Not sure how well that would hold up because a generator weighs a lot more than an A/C unit.

If you have had surface standing water in that area, I would want the generator mounted at least 6" above grade. 12" is not out of the question. A box made out of pressure treated 2x6, staked to the ground and filled with gravel is also a good base.

 

[Chucktin]

We are currently 1/2 thru the install on Cummings Propane Gen set (the tanks are currently in Texas (slo semis?)).

Yes to 5' and exhausted away from house.
Yes to bury Propane line.
There is also an upper limit to tank to generator distance and straight line is preferred.
We don't need to worry for flooding but a slope has made them put a sand pad under the generator pad and I've put down a 3 sided box to retain the fill.
Also ours couldn't be where wife preferred for buried power line. So she's already let me know a fence is mandated. She "says" she'll put in bushes to hide gen and tank. So why fence? Don't have a clue. Hoping she'll relent. Bushes are a PITA and I despise gardening.

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[joseywales]

I should have clarified on thing. This is Natural Gas

 

[Noltz]

If it's nat gas then there's almost no limit to distance, but you MIGHT need a different regulator on the house. If flooding is an issue you DEFINITELY want a raised pad or hardscaping. I'd do a concrete pad if you can get a truck or mixer in there. You could use pressure treated 4x4's to build an island topped by gravel, and a "genpad" on top as oldwizard said. You can put hedges or hardscaping in to pretty it up. Just be clear with your contractor or consultant that "I want a cost on buried gas and electric lines. If it can't be buried I don't want it."

If you want to shovel the trench yourself you could save significant money.

 

[brewchief]

Gas meter may have to be changed, 16kw generator will need close to 250,000 btus worth of gas at full load, pretty common to need to upgrade gas service.

Gas line could be 1" if short with few 90s, otherwise it's most likely going to need to be 1 1/4". Going underground usually means using poly pipe, figure 2 risers at 125$ each plus pipe(no one near me sells by the foot so you buy a whole roll to go a few feet).

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[wyliesdiesels]

You have a lot of electric loads?

 

[joseywales]

You have a lot of electric loads?

- central A/C
- Full size fridge/freezer
- Full size freezer
- mini-fridge
- wine cooler
- 2 PCs and 2 laptops
- 4 PC monitors
things like that

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Those are minor. definitely not anywhere near 16KW of load

electric heat/heat pump, water heater, dryer, oven, pool pump, etc etc?

 

[joseywales]

Those are minor. definitely not anywhere near 16KW of load

electric heat/heat pump, water heater, dryer, oven, pool pump, etc etc?

Haha. ok. I thought you'd think I was nuts on the pool pump.

- 2hp pool pump
- sump pump for basement
- mini-split unit in basement
- dehumidifier in garage

All other appliances are gas.

I don't disagree about the load though. Most of the them would have to kick on at the same time to draw hard on a 16kW.

 

[joseywales]

I spoke with one installer and they suggested 12kW, which seems a tad low perhaps?

If I do whole house, unmanaged, do I need transfer switch?

2,700sqf home.
- central A/C
- (2) Full size fridge/freezers
- Full size freezer
- mini-fridge
- wine cooler
- 2hp pool pump
- sump pump for basement
- mini-split unit in basement
- dehumidifier in garage
- tankless gas water heater

 

[Will S.]

I see 12 or 13kw working just fine. Not likely you will be using ALL of those loads at the same time as when the generator comes on, and you can always install a load shed relay for the A/C.

My house and loads are very much like your's, except I don't have a pool, but I do have a 1.5hp well pump, and I have electric water heater, range, 2 full size refrigerators and a full size freezer. I went with a 13kw gen with auto-transfer switch.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I spoke with one installer and they suggested 12kW, which seems a tad low perhaps?

If I do whole house, unmanaged, do I need transfer switch?

2,700sqf home.
- central A/C
- (2) Full size fridge/freezers
- Full size freezer
- mini-fridge
- wine cooler
- 2hp pool pump
- sump pump for basement
- mini-split unit in basement
- dehumidifier in garage
- tankless gas water heater

Well if you want unmanaged it would need to be an AUTOMATIC transfer switch. Code requires the generator to fully support the connected load OR have load shedding capabilities. But now youre talking lots of money....

 

[joseywales]

Well if you want unmanaged it would need to be an AUTOMATIC transfer switch. Code requires the generator to fully support the connected load OR have load shedding capabilities. But now youre talking lots of money....

Thanks. I think that's where I went off the rails a bit. The install I'd be talking about would test run each week. During an outage, power would be lost briefly, then the unit would power the home. I didn't think a transfer switch was required, unless I wanted to manage which circuits received power from the generator? I believe what I'm describing, though, is an auto-transfer switch.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Thanks. I think that's where I went off the rails a bit. The install I'd be talking about would test run each week. During an outage, power would be lost briefly, then the unit would power the home. I didn't think a transfer switch was required, unless I wanted to manage which circuits received power from the generator?

If you don't have a transfer switch, how on earth would you power the house with the generator and have the PoCo feed disconnected?

Were you planning on an interlock? and in that case, everything would be manually managed. Definitely not unmanaged

If you want unmanaged, then you will need an ATS- automatic transfer switch. This would go between the meter and the current main service panel, which would need to be converted to a subpanel with an isolated neutral.

 

[joseywales]

I see 12 or 13kw working just fine. Not likely you will be using ALL of those loads at the same time as when the generator comes on, and you can always install a load shed relay for the A/C.

My house and loads are very much like your's, except I don't have a pool, but I do have a 1.5hp well pump, and I have electric water heater, range, 2 full size refrigerators and a full size freezer. I went with a 13kw gen with auto-transfer switch.

Thanks. Agreed. I was laughing when talking with the first company, saying I can't imagine a power outage circumstance, where I'm lounging in my above ground pool, with the pump and pool heater on.

 

[joseywales]

@wyliediesls , @Will S. Riddle me this guys, what constitutes an opening, where the unit must be 5 feet away? I ask because in my conversation with one company today, they do not believe my basement window well is included in that 5' mandate, unless it's an egress window, which it is not.

The window well is ground level, meaning the top of the window is level with the ground. The opening portion of the window is maybe 10" x 10".

Thus:

- do you believe the 5 feet standard can be ignored and the unit can be placed closer to the wall of my home? No other windows or doors exist on that wall.

- If not, can I "cap" that window well, perhaps riveting a clear "lid" on it, that would transfer light, but not gases?

 

[Noltz]

If the window opens, it's an opening. I'm not an electrician, but in automotive I will not pass a vehicle that has duct tape sealing the exhaust gases from the interior of the vehicle. And I surely wouldn't pass a rain guard as a carbon-monoxide barrier. If the window does NOT open then I'd just make sure my written checklist is satisfied.

 

[dcg9381]

To me, an operable door or window constitutes an opening. I think that rule comes from 4.1.4 in NFPA 37.

If you have an operable window within 5', my understanding is that you would have to have an inoperable (fixed) window installed instead. It'd be up to someone's digression if you attempted to "cap" that opening with an operable window under the cap, but I've already read other opinions where making a window "inoperable" won't solve it.


I'm sure someone would install it - but the trouble comes if you have a permit that requires a post install inspection OR (perhaps) an inspection upon resale that figures out it's within 5' of an opening. If you need a permit or inspection for this, call up the jurisdiction and make sure that a fixed window would fly.


I'd elevate it too. Not on wooden blocks. Concrete pad would be best, if a pad is already there and it needs elevation - maybe worst case a pad made of 6x6 and glass all of it in as it's exposed to water.

Gas lines should be buried, but if I was given a choice of solid black pipe above ground or a buried flexible gas line, I might choose the solid depending on conditions.

It can be installed closer to the wall, if your wall is not a combustible type. IE - likely brick, masonry, Hardie... Not vinyl siding, wood panel, etc.

 

[Badgerstate]

I worked for Generac for 10 years as a generator and power washer tester/repair tech, so take my 2 cents as someone who knows Generac products inside, out and upside down for what its worth.
I would either put it on a raised platform to protect it from any flooding. I personally would do a concrete pad over a wood one because its going to be much more durable.
As for the gas line, yes, its usually buried and IMO its much safer to bury it than to have it above ground. All you need is for your lawn mower to kick up a rock that hits the gas line just right and ******. Burying it solves that problem.

 

[joseywales]

Thanks folks. Not looking to circumvent inspection, etc. I agree about the operable window and am growing suspect of that company's advice.

We just had those windows installed a few years ago, replacing the old ones, thinking we'd open them for air now and again. Never, not once, did we open them. In fact, a mouse tore the heck out of one of the window screens, so I'm now thinking of blocking up at least one window with glass block, which solves that open window problem.

Curious about the combustible siding aspect now.

I thought that since Generac had a fire rate casing, it didn't matter if the unit was closer than 5' to any combustible material. Am I wrong about that?

 

[Noltz]

Thanks folks. Not looking to circumvent inspection, etc. I agree about the operable window and am growing suspect of that company's advice.

We just had those windows installed a few years ago, replacing the old ones, thinking we'd open them for air now and again. Never, not once, did we open them. In fact, a mouse tore the heck out of one of the window screens, so I'm now thinking of blocking up at least one window with glass block, which solves that open window problem.

Curious about the combustible siding aspect now.

I thought that since Generac had a fire rate casing, it didn't matter if the unit was closer than 5' to any combustible material. Am I wrong about that?

You can go as close as 18" to a brick wall. See here;
https://www.generac.com/for-homeowners/home-backup-power/generator-installation

Sealing up the window would, IMO, qualify as a non-opening. Or having a solid window made to your dimensions, or trimming in a slightly smaller case window.

 

[joseywales]

You can go as close as 18" to a brick wall. See here;
https://www.generac.com/for-homeowners/home-backup-power/generator-installation

Sealing up the window would, IMO, qualify as a non-opening. Or having a solid window made to your dimensions, or trimming in a slightly smaller case window.

OK. Well, my house is 30 years old, so it's made vinyl, Styrofoam, and cardboard, so, no huff n puff required to blow this trap down. It'll be

Heck, when the wind blows, I can feel it come through our electrical outlets. Always a hoot when PECO, our utility company, sends me letters about how they can improve the energy efficiency of our house. Seriously??? What exactly is their plan. Replace windows, so the air through the outlets comes through stronger??

 

[dcg9381]

OP - I just saw this advertised:
"Third-party-certified to NFPA standards, Honeywell Backup Generators can be installed as close as 18" to your home"

(Note these are re-branded generac)


http://www.honeywellgenerators.com/...h5aPjFs39cLratAM7D_p5SDHgOGMyBqhoCqF8QAvD_BwE

 

[SethB]

Generac has an 18" standoff in their install manual, which most allow over the NFPA 5', but double check with your local authority. Around here you can also go closer than 5' if you have a 1 hr fire rating or better on the wall.