Generator run well

[Andy B]

I have a 3000 watt generator that runs with 125 volts and has 25amp plug and two 20 amp plugs. I am tryng to run a submersible pump in a well. I am using an exiting well and put in a 1/2 horse power 12 amp pump into the well. It is wired with submersible cable 65' 12-2 cable with ground to the surface. From here i wired direct buriel 10-3 underground that runs from the well to the generator. The 10-3 with ground is 500' in length to the generator room.
The generator is a eu300si honda.
Please give me advise and ideas on how to make this work. The pump does not run.

 

[RickP]

Are you sure it's a 120v pump?

You're getting some pretty serious voltage drop at that distance -- check the calcs here:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

Also, why did you mix 12 Ga wire with 10 Ga wire on the same circuit?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Have u checked the obvious:

*Generator outputting voltage at plug?
*Voltage at end of wire next to well head?
*Tested the resistance of the windings in the pump?
*Have u tried plugging the pump into a different power source on a shorter length of wire?

Voltage is gonna be very bad at that distance- 105.1v at the well end of the 500' cable and then 102v at the pump IF the voltage at the generator is a solid 120v WHILE the pump is running. Motors have in-rush currents when starting which can be 6x-8x their FLC/running current which will cause the voltage to be even lower. I suspect that the voltage is TOO low for the motor to even be able to startup! I would try to get the generator closer to the pump!

And Ive never seen a 25a receptacle! Its probably a 30a receptacle.

Are you sure it's a 120v pump?

You're getting some pretty serious voltage drop at that distance -- check the calcs here:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

Also, why did you mix 12 Ga wire with 10 Ga wire on the same circuit?

He probably upsized the wire to account for voltage drop. Unfortunately, at that distance it doesn't help much.

 

[Kevin54]

My guess is that if you are running a 1/2 horse pump, it is 220 and not 110/120.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

My guess is that if you are running a 1/2 horse pump, it is 220 and not 110/120.

We have a 1/2hp sump pump at work and its 120v. And nominal voltage is 240v NOT 220v!

Edit: My bad, i read the thread really fast and for some reason interchanged submersable with sump!!

 

[larry_g]

We have a 1/2hp sump pump at work and its 120v. And nominal voltage is 240v NOT 220v!

And a 2x4 is 1.5 x 3.5, Let it go and you will find peace in your life. Hold onto it and you will continue to beat the dead horse.
lg
no neat sig line

 

[Jagmandave]

Can you get the genset up to the well head and plug it in directly? if so and the pump runs you'll eliminate the pump and the genset as the problem.

 

[RickP]

He probably upsized the wire to account for voltage drop. Unfortunately, at that distance it doesn't help much.

Is that safe? I thought the junction of those two different gauge wires might cause problems, but I might have thought wrong. Wouldn't be the first time (or the last!)

 

[Richard Cranium]

do you have a control box, and if so have you checked the reset buttons on the bottom of the box.... Rich

 

[Kevin54]

We have a 1/2hp sump pump at work and its 120v. And nominal voltage is 240v NOT 220v!

Sorry I didn't know the highly technical term for what was ALWAYS called 220 in my day.

But now I'm confused...is it 110, or did not the OP put 125, and if it's 125 wouldn't you double that to 250? but then again some people always called it 115 instead of 120, so then it would be only 230 if doubled.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is that safe? I thought the junction of those two different gauge wires might cause problems, but I might have thought wrong. Wouldn't be the first time (or the last!)

From a code standpoint, IIRC, i dont think wire gauges can be mixed. But as far as being safe, technically 12-2 sub wire would be limited to 20a but under 2008 code it would have been 25a, so i dont see it as very unsafe!

do you have a control box, and if so have you checked the reset buttons on the bottom of the box.... Rich

Good idea. I cant believe i didnt think of that cause i work at a pump co. He should also test the cap and relay if he has a control box. If he doesnt have one, the pump might not work.

Sorry I didn't know the highly technical term for what was ALWAYS called 220 in my day.

But now I'm confused...is it 110, or did not the OP put 125, and if it's 125 wouldn't you double that to 250? but then again some people always called it 115 instead of 120, so then it would be only 230 if doubled.

220v did exist back in the day. 120v/240v is the nominal voltage for split phase/single phase electricity nowadays. And outlets are rated 125v/250v so the OP was probably reading the writing on the outlet! To confuse things further, motors are rated 115v/230v/460v.

 

[Speedy Petey]

Did anyone consider the VD on a 500' run of #10 with 12A @ 120V is going to be HUGE?
I bet the motor is just humming and does not have enough power to run, especially against a well head of water.

 

[Speedy Petey]

That run would require #4 or #3CU for proper use at 12 running amps. The OP is using #12 & #10.
Startup on a well motor is pretty severe.
I bet it just can't start.

 

[nehog]

measure the voltage at the generator while trying to run the pump, then measure the voltage at the pump (where the 12AWG joins the 10AWG) and post the difference. I suspect that with starting current surge being much more than the 12 amps you planned for, when the pump tries to start the voltage is dropping too much to start the motor, current continues to remain high and it never starts.

For example, if the starting current is 24 amps then the drop on the 10 AWG wire is going to be about 24 volts, which likely will result in a no start, especially as the generator may not be providing good surge performance anyway.

 

[theoldwizard1]

We have a 1/2hp sump pump at work and its 120v. And nominal voltage is 240v NOT 220v!

Sorry I didn't know the highly technical term for what was ALWAYS called 220 in my day.

But now I'm confused...is it 110, or did not the OP put 125, and if it's 125 wouldn't you double that to 250? but then again some people always called it 115 instead of 120, so then it would be only 230 if doubled.

Ya' know Kevin, sometimes people on this 'board like to make a big deal out of a little thing.

In my life I have seen it called 220, 225, 230 and 240. The half side I have seen called 110, 115, 117, 120 and even 125. What ever floats your boat.

I'll bet no one can find a piece of paper or even a statement on a web site that says what the "nominal" delivered voltage is supposed to be or even the range (plus or minus) from their power company.

Many modern appliances ('fridge and A/C) and electronics are built to accommodate lower than normal voltages. A lot of computer equipment is built with "universal" power supplies that will shift from "low voltage" (100-140V) to "high voltage" (200-280V) as well as work on 50 or 60 Hz (probably wider than that)

My biggest concern would be if there was much more than a couple of volts different on each leg.

 

[theoldwizard1]

A Honda EU3000i only makes 120V. Most well pumps are 240V.

Voltage drop over a length of wire is the same regardless of the "nominal" voltage, so if you double the voltage (use a 240V motor instead of a 120V motor) the voltage drop percentage is cut in 1/2 !

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Did anyone consider the VD on a 500' run of #10 with 12A @ 120V is going to be HUGE?
I bet the motor is just humming and does not have enough power to run, especially against a well head of water.

I did. Post #3....

 

[Speedy Petey]

I did. Post #3....

As well you did.

I sometimes don't read your posts very thoroughly, since they are usually correct.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

A Honda EU3000i only makes 120V. Most well pumps are 240V.

Voltage drop over a length of wire is the same regardless of the "nominal" voltage, so if you double the voltage (use a 240V motor instead of a 120V motor) the voltage drop percentage is cut in 1/2 !

Yes and also when talking about motors, if the motor voltage is doubled then the amp draw is halved, reducing the voltage drop by half! This would change the voltage drop to 9v and approxamately 231v at the pump, which is not ideal but the pump might be able to start.

 

[where2]

Although likely not NEC approved, this is one of those cases where you wish you had a step UP and a step DOWN transformer, then that 500' run of #10 wire would become less significant.

Some other forum I stumbled upon not long ago showed a fellow who picked up a little 40 hectare piece of paradise in some South American country. He wound his own step UP and step DOWN transformers to bring the power from his micro-hydroelectric generator around the hillside to his house.

Google "Ludens Microhydro" if you care. He's got a dandy of a build thread.

 

[nehog]

... the voltage drop to 9v and approxamately 231v at the pump, which is not ideal but the pump might be able to start.

231 volts for a motor spec'ed at 240 would be just fine, within tolerance. Line voltage is not absolute, motors are designed to work with some leeway in voltage.

Although likely not NEC approved, this is one of those cases where you wish you had a step UP and a step DOWN transformer, then that 500' run of #10 wire would become less significant. ...

Been there, done that and can only say: Don't try it, it gets expensive fast if you don't have the transformers sitting around. As well, remember when you step up that 120 volts to a higher voltage (whether 240 or even 480) you need to account for the higher voltage WRT safety.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Although likely not NEC approved, this is one of those cases where you wish you had a step UP and a step DOWN transformer, then that 500' run of #10 wire would become less significant.

I mentioned that in another post.

I don't know why it would not be NEC compliant.


You are also assuming the pump motor is 120V. I'm betting it is 240V.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Been there, done that and can only say: Don't try it, it gets expensive fast if you don't have the transformers sitting around.

That's for sure ! Even used, small 1.5KVA are not cheap.

As well, remember when you step up that 120 volts to a higher voltage (whether 240 or even 480) you need to account for the higher voltage WRT safety.

Huh ?

UF-B is rated for 600V. You do have to account for losses in the transformer windings resistance and inefficiencies in magnetic transfer of energy between the coils. Use a 120V-240V step up and a 208V-120V step down.

 

[justsam]

You are also assuming the pump motor is 120V. I'm betting it is 240V.

The OP did not really specify the pump operating voltage, only the output voltage of the generator.

He did state that it was 1/2 horse and operating current was 12 Amps. This sounds like a 120 VAC to me or a very inefficient 240 VAC pump.

 

[Stuart in MN]

It may be a good idea to wait for the original poster to come back and respond before speculating any more on the situation.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The OP did not really specify the pump operating voltage, only the output voltage of the generator.

He did state that it was 1/2 horse and operating current was 12 Amps. This sounds like a 120 VAC to me or a very inefficient 240 VAC pump.

It may be a good idea to wait for the original poster to come back and respond before speculating any more on the situation.

Actually, it turns out that the OP did already respond and confirmed the pump is 120v but for some reason posted his response in the 'edit reason' section of his first post. Strange.....