mrobins297aaa
Well-known member
if you have room just add a sub panel, there cheap. Then you can just take the two breakers you need to move to make room for the generator circuits and move them to the sub panel.
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Generators..........
- Thread starter D45
- Start date
https://www.ebay.com/p/Sd-200va-Squ...mp-Qo-Panel-Listed/518496908?iid=291947596670
Looks to be a cheaper interlock option.
You would need to use a couple tandems to make room for the two pole breaker, not all slots can accept them on some panels so you need to verify that they can be used in your panel.
This might work........for $70
"Square D QO Generator Interlock clip"
"This model fits 150 and 200 amp QO panels with a vertical main breaker
the space between the bottom of the main breaker to the top breaker on the right is 3 1/4 inches"
I just measured the space in my panel and it is exactly 3-1/4"
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My Old Tools
Well-known member
I have a 35 kw Genrac on a dedicated 750 gallon propane tank. It is automatic fail over and runs its own self test for 10 minutes every week. It was installed by the previous owner after Hurricane Rita. We get power outages from storms, tornados, hurricanes, and ice storms. The joys of living in a forest. 5 days without AC or a refrigerator in Texas in August might convince you to spend the money.
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Bretny
Well-known member
If your just looking to spend $400 buy a low hour used craigslist job and a few extension cords. Looking at the pic of your filled electrical pannel its going to cost you more than $400 just to get a transfer switch ready to install.
IT_Architect
Active member
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2014
- Messages
- 41
I agree with a lot of what has already been said. These are my thoughts:
Gasoline:
- As someone else already mentioned, gasoline without additives is nowhere near the problem those who run additives make it out to be. I picked up a generator that had 5-year-old gasoline in it. It started on the second pull, it just had very little power. My lawn mower doesn't run that good on any gas that is left in over the winter even. Gasoline does well if the container is sealed, which gasoline tanks are not by default. The real issues are:
1. When the power comes back on, and you have 1/2 a tank of gas, what are you going to do with the as that is in there?
2. Do you want to make trips to get gasoline? If you get a big container, you need to pay quite a bit more for the container, and you have to store it.
3. Do you want to have to watch the fuel levels, run out, and refill?
4. It does start pretty good in cold weather but not nearly as good as NG or LPG.
Alternate Fuels:
- As one said, figure 10,000 BTUs per HP.
- There is an old saying that goes, "Figures to not lie, but liars DO figure." The shoe fits anyone who says there will not be a power loss with Propane and a large power loss with Natural Gas. There are a lot of deception going on. The only figures you are interested are dyno tests from engines that are Tri-Fuel, not some 16:1 compression CNG engine that you don't have, and I could care less where you dispense the CNG. The best case scenario I have found is the Ford Super Duty with EFI and FACTORY CNG. On that vehicle, power output was down 18% on the dyno. The tests they did on generators show them down 20%. How much capacity is lost depends on how over-powered or under-powered the generator is. Example: Most of the 420cc clones are 13 hp. It requires 2hp per kw. (13hp * .8 = 10.4hp / 2 = 5.2kw. If you have a 5.5kw generator, there it may not have much effect. If you have a 7kw, which if it is truly 13hp, can really only do 6500kw on gasoline, so then the difference would be substantial.
- NG is low pressure and requires a lot of pipe capacity. It is very likely that you will have to run some new gas pipes to feed the generator. You need 10 cfm/hr. per hp, and 7" of water column at the inlet. That means you may lose no more than 1/2" of water column between your meter and the generator even when other loads are functioning. Pipes such as Gas-Flex have very poor flow compared to pipe of the same diameter as does flex hose, so these sections must be kept very short. 1" Gas-Flex is smaller inside than 3/4" pipe, and a lot less smooth.
- NG and LPG starts well in any weather.
- NG and LPG do not wash away cylinder lubrication nor do they contaminate the oil anywhere near as much, which means longer engine life and oil life.
- LPG makes the most sense if you don't have natural gas, and you have a "pig" on your property to run a line from. Otherwise, you still have to cart more expensive, and much less portable fuel that may not have a purpose anywhere else.
- Diesel is more efficient and less expensive than gasoline and are good running engines. The problem is, you still have to cart the fuel or buy a drum, and diesels don't start easy in cold weather.
Generators:
There are not nearly as many high-volume portable generator manufacturers as you might imagine, and even fewer design differences. There are Honda, Honda clones, and Briggs & Stratton. When you hear Honda clone, it means that even the parts interchange for the most part between the engines and generators. One supplier was using the same tooling to supply Honda and clones. So as not to mislead, Hondas are better. Today's clones may have the same engine parts and generator parts for the must part, but Hondas will have things like EFI like your car has, features that make them better able to meet OSHA requirements for contractors, hour meters, and other features and capabilities. Another advantage of the Honda and Honda clone market is there are many parts suppliers. The famous brand names you see are normally all made by Lifan or RATO, who makes two different head designs, but the same engine. Example: The blue Chicago Electric generators are made by Lifan. The red Predator generators are made by RATO. Look at the Ford, Westinghouse, Generac, etc., and notice the similarities. If you need parts, there are a lot of places you can go for them. If it is a Honda clone, you can buy a Tri-Fuel carburetor like the Tonco that is made specifically for the engine you have that is a bolt-on replacement and it will cost less than $50. Tonco is probably the best of the bunch. There is nothing left to buy or mount. I bought one but have not tried it yet. Some of the generators people brag about like the Onan and Kohler may be fine generators, but a carburetor will cost more than your entire generator will, even if you can find the parts, used or otherwise.
Size is another consideration. If going larger, make sure you are actually getting something. Take for example a 5.5kw vs. a 7.0 kw. In theory, the 30 amp outlet that feeds your panel should be fused for 30 amps., which would be 7.2kw. In reality, most have 25 amp breakers, so you can only get a max of 6kw through that outlet before the breaker trips. The rest of the potential is available only through extension cords. If you want the convenience of NG, you probably also want the convenience of electric start so if one has it and the other doesn't, the decision is made for you. Also, once you jump from a 30 amp plug, to a 50 amp plug, everything gets a lot more expensive. You also need to keep in mind that the full capability is not available to you unless both legs of the 240v are perfectly balanced which is not likely no matter how well you divide the load.
A portable is not necessarily cheaper after all is said and done. Whole-house generators come with a base, generator, and enclosure, that are probably better than you could build, and actually can add value to your house. Moreover, they are already derated for NG. If you buy a 8kw NG generator, you are getting a 10hp gasoline engine size. The advantage of a portable besides portability is fuel choice. Generators over 4kw in size are not what I would call portable.
Electrical:
You are right on the money by thinking lockout over a transfer switch. The only thing a transfer switch adds is it pre-picks the circuits to use when you go on generator. That is also a disadvantage. You might want to simply use different things, different times of the day. Example: We're turning the air on, so no microwave or hair dryers. If you change generators at a later date, everything changes. If you are concerned about the floating and bonded neutral, adding a switch is trivial if you need it.
Summary:
If the end game is to save money, it is doubtful that you will ever see an ROI by going Tri-Fuel over gasoline. It would have to be for the other reasons.
Gasoline:
- As someone else already mentioned, gasoline without additives is nowhere near the problem those who run additives make it out to be. I picked up a generator that had 5-year-old gasoline in it. It started on the second pull, it just had very little power. My lawn mower doesn't run that good on any gas that is left in over the winter even. Gasoline does well if the container is sealed, which gasoline tanks are not by default. The real issues are:
1. When the power comes back on, and you have 1/2 a tank of gas, what are you going to do with the as that is in there?
2. Do you want to make trips to get gasoline? If you get a big container, you need to pay quite a bit more for the container, and you have to store it.
3. Do you want to have to watch the fuel levels, run out, and refill?
4. It does start pretty good in cold weather but not nearly as good as NG or LPG.
Alternate Fuels:
- As one said, figure 10,000 BTUs per HP.
- There is an old saying that goes, "Figures to not lie, but liars DO figure." The shoe fits anyone who says there will not be a power loss with Propane and a large power loss with Natural Gas. There are a lot of deception going on. The only figures you are interested are dyno tests from engines that are Tri-Fuel, not some 16:1 compression CNG engine that you don't have, and I could care less where you dispense the CNG. The best case scenario I have found is the Ford Super Duty with EFI and FACTORY CNG. On that vehicle, power output was down 18% on the dyno. The tests they did on generators show them down 20%. How much capacity is lost depends on how over-powered or under-powered the generator is. Example: Most of the 420cc clones are 13 hp. It requires 2hp per kw. (13hp * .8 = 10.4hp / 2 = 5.2kw. If you have a 5.5kw generator, there it may not have much effect. If you have a 7kw, which if it is truly 13hp, can really only do 6500kw on gasoline, so then the difference would be substantial.
- NG is low pressure and requires a lot of pipe capacity. It is very likely that you will have to run some new gas pipes to feed the generator. You need 10 cfm/hr. per hp, and 7" of water column at the inlet. That means you may lose no more than 1/2" of water column between your meter and the generator even when other loads are functioning. Pipes such as Gas-Flex have very poor flow compared to pipe of the same diameter as does flex hose, so these sections must be kept very short. 1" Gas-Flex is smaller inside than 3/4" pipe, and a lot less smooth.
- NG and LPG starts well in any weather.
- NG and LPG do not wash away cylinder lubrication nor do they contaminate the oil anywhere near as much, which means longer engine life and oil life.
- LPG makes the most sense if you don't have natural gas, and you have a "pig" on your property to run a line from. Otherwise, you still have to cart more expensive, and much less portable fuel that may not have a purpose anywhere else.
- Diesel is more efficient and less expensive than gasoline and are good running engines. The problem is, you still have to cart the fuel or buy a drum, and diesels don't start easy in cold weather.
Generators:
There are not nearly as many high-volume portable generator manufacturers as you might imagine, and even fewer design differences. There are Honda, Honda clones, and Briggs & Stratton. When you hear Honda clone, it means that even the parts interchange for the most part between the engines and generators. One supplier was using the same tooling to supply Honda and clones. So as not to mislead, Hondas are better. Today's clones may have the same engine parts and generator parts for the must part, but Hondas will have things like EFI like your car has, features that make them better able to meet OSHA requirements for contractors, hour meters, and other features and capabilities. Another advantage of the Honda and Honda clone market is there are many parts suppliers. The famous brand names you see are normally all made by Lifan or RATO, who makes two different head designs, but the same engine. Example: The blue Chicago Electric generators are made by Lifan. The red Predator generators are made by RATO. Look at the Ford, Westinghouse, Generac, etc., and notice the similarities. If you need parts, there are a lot of places you can go for them. If it is a Honda clone, you can buy a Tri-Fuel carburetor like the Tonco that is made specifically for the engine you have that is a bolt-on replacement and it will cost less than $50. Tonco is probably the best of the bunch. There is nothing left to buy or mount. I bought one but have not tried it yet. Some of the generators people brag about like the Onan and Kohler may be fine generators, but a carburetor will cost more than your entire generator will, even if you can find the parts, used or otherwise.
Size is another consideration. If going larger, make sure you are actually getting something. Take for example a 5.5kw vs. a 7.0 kw. In theory, the 30 amp outlet that feeds your panel should be fused for 30 amps., which would be 7.2kw. In reality, most have 25 amp breakers, so you can only get a max of 6kw through that outlet before the breaker trips. The rest of the potential is available only through extension cords. If you want the convenience of NG, you probably also want the convenience of electric start so if one has it and the other doesn't, the decision is made for you. Also, once you jump from a 30 amp plug, to a 50 amp plug, everything gets a lot more expensive. You also need to keep in mind that the full capability is not available to you unless both legs of the 240v are perfectly balanced which is not likely no matter how well you divide the load.
A portable is not necessarily cheaper after all is said and done. Whole-house generators come with a base, generator, and enclosure, that are probably better than you could build, and actually can add value to your house. Moreover, they are already derated for NG. If you buy a 8kw NG generator, you are getting a 10hp gasoline engine size. The advantage of a portable besides portability is fuel choice. Generators over 4kw in size are not what I would call portable.
Electrical:
You are right on the money by thinking lockout over a transfer switch. The only thing a transfer switch adds is it pre-picks the circuits to use when you go on generator. That is also a disadvantage. You might want to simply use different things, different times of the day. Example: We're turning the air on, so no microwave or hair dryers. If you change generators at a later date, everything changes. If you are concerned about the floating and bonded neutral, adding a switch is trivial if you need it.
Summary:
If the end game is to save money, it is doubtful that you will ever see an ROI by going Tri-Fuel over gasoline. It would have to be for the other reasons.
Last edited: