neverenoughtools
Well-known member
I am considering a geothermal heating/ cooling system for a new 1400 sq.' home. Does anyone have one of these systems? Comments pro and con are welcome. 
Geothermal heating
- Thread starter neverenoughtools
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rquackenbush
Well-known member
Well, the first thing is geothermal is way more expensive, but is also way more efficient. The initial investment will be considerably higher, but once it has paid for itself the gains are significant. So if you're planing on moving in a few years, you won't recoup your dough. If your home is a longer term investment, it might be a great way to go.
I have had a lot of experience with Water Furnace brand products. Cons-They are pretty noisy. Being a heat pump, you have to maintain a 1-2 degree set point. Example- during heating you will lose your savings by setting the thermostat back at night and bumping it up 4-5 degrees in the morning. Overall cost is much higher and as stated before you would have to live in your home for many years to gain your initial investment back. Pros- If a de super heater is installed it will provide most of your hot water using head pressure from the unit while running. You may notice a more even heat/cool over a traditional ac/furnace setup due to longer run times in low stage. Tax credits may make the purchase a little lighter in the wallet depending on which ones you qualify for. Those are the main ones I can think of. You mentioned new home so I would suggest you check out the warranty info as Water Furnace comes with a 10 year warranty, and I have heard of builders "BUYING DOWN" those warranties to a 1 year. My .02
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jkeyser14
Well-known member
I have geothermal and love it. As already said, you don't use setbacks when in heating mode or it will cause the backup to kick in (same with any heat pump). Our heating bills are 1/3 of what they were with oil heat and our cooling bill is about $50 cheaper during the summer months, even without using set backs. With the federal tax credits our payback is going to be 7 years. It would have been 6 if we had gone with horizontal loops instead of vertical, but I wanted to disturb as little of the yard as possible. Our unit has a 15 year warranty on the furnace and 50 year on the loop. Another benefit is the lack of an outdoor AC condensor, and as already said the desuperheater to provide hot water.
As far as the comments about it being louder, that shouldn't be a problem with a new build. My unit has two fans speeds and when in the low speed it is much quieter than our oil heat was, you can't hear it running unless you are standing by a register. When in the high fan speed mode it sounds pretty close to the oil heat system. This also has a lot to do with the number and size of supplies and returns. We had all of our old ducts replaced and new registers installed so that everything was properly sized for added airflow that heat pumps require compared to higher temperature natural gas or oil systems.
If we had to do it again, we would in a heartbeat.
The only "con's" I have:
1) We don't have enough cooling days to get really long run times and make the desuperheater work well in the summer. It does work very well in the winter though.
2) Our utility offers a $50/month discount during the cooling season to use their own thermostat which allows them to shut off your hvac system during times of increased demand. The con here is that their thermostat doesn't work with geothermal systems.
As far as the comments about it being louder, that shouldn't be a problem with a new build. My unit has two fans speeds and when in the low speed it is much quieter than our oil heat was, you can't hear it running unless you are standing by a register. When in the high fan speed mode it sounds pretty close to the oil heat system. This also has a lot to do with the number and size of supplies and returns. We had all of our old ducts replaced and new registers installed so that everything was properly sized for added airflow that heat pumps require compared to higher temperature natural gas or oil systems.
If we had to do it again, we would in a heartbeat.
The only "con's" I have:
1) We don't have enough cooling days to get really long run times and make the desuperheater work well in the summer. It does work very well in the winter though.
2) Our utility offers a $50/month discount during the cooling season to use their own thermostat which allows them to shut off your hvac system during times of increased demand. The con here is that their thermostat doesn't work with geothermal systems.
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theoldwizard1
Well-known member
No experience, but here is somethings to think about. Future cost of energy.
Heating and cooling your home requires electricity and typically another fuel, natural gas, LP, or oil. For this discussion I will ignore direct radiant heat (the sun heating a liquid or solid).
Fuel oil is very costly, and the future cost will likely continue to go up at a relatively fast rate.
LP (propane) is also costly and its future price will also likely continue to go up at a relatively fast rate.
Electricity is less costly, but it is not very cost effective in (resistance) heating. It is also not very cost effective when moving heat to outside air (A/C). Electricity costs in most parts of the country are likely to increase because fuel costs will increase, but more importantly, because electric power generation new construction is not keeping up with demand growth. (This might change if the change to fluorescent and LED lighting happens quicker.)
Natural gas is the only energy source where the supply has increased significantly in the past 10 years. (Yes, there is a problem with fracking. Let's hope they solve it soon.) This has kept the cost stable and should also provide the smallest cost increase for the foreseeable future.
The point I'm getting to is this. The pay back rate of geothermal depends a lot on how many dollars you spend on heating and how many you spend on cooling. If you currently spend more on cooling than on heating, your pay back time will be shorter.
Living in Canada, I suspect your payback will be longer than if you lived in some place like the Southern part of the US. Of course, if your only other energy source for heating is fuel oil or LP, this equation changes quite a bit.
My in-laws live in the foot-hills of the Smokey Mountains. They have a standard heat pump and love it. Function like typical forced air with A/C. Natural gas is not available where they live so a heat pump is much less expensive to operate than LP or fuel oil. Drilling wells for geothermal in their area would be very costly. The pay back for them might be very long because drilling cost are high (rock) and they don't use their A/C a lot. They did install propane fireplaces as a back up in case there was a long power outage, but have never used them.
Heating and cooling your home requires electricity and typically another fuel, natural gas, LP, or oil. For this discussion I will ignore direct radiant heat (the sun heating a liquid or solid).
Fuel oil is very costly, and the future cost will likely continue to go up at a relatively fast rate.
LP (propane) is also costly and its future price will also likely continue to go up at a relatively fast rate.
Electricity is less costly, but it is not very cost effective in (resistance) heating. It is also not very cost effective when moving heat to outside air (A/C). Electricity costs in most parts of the country are likely to increase because fuel costs will increase, but more importantly, because electric power generation new construction is not keeping up with demand growth. (This might change if the change to fluorescent and LED lighting happens quicker.)
Natural gas is the only energy source where the supply has increased significantly in the past 10 years. (Yes, there is a problem with fracking. Let's hope they solve it soon.) This has kept the cost stable and should also provide the smallest cost increase for the foreseeable future.
The point I'm getting to is this. The pay back rate of geothermal depends a lot on how many dollars you spend on heating and how many you spend on cooling. If you currently spend more on cooling than on heating, your pay back time will be shorter.
Living in Canada, I suspect your payback will be longer than if you lived in some place like the Southern part of the US. Of course, if your only other energy source for heating is fuel oil or LP, this equation changes quite a bit.
My in-laws live in the foot-hills of the Smokey Mountains. They have a standard heat pump and love it. Function like typical forced air with A/C. Natural gas is not available where they live so a heat pump is much less expensive to operate than LP or fuel oil. Drilling wells for geothermal in their area would be very costly. The pay back for them might be very long because drilling cost are high (rock) and they don't use their A/C a lot. They did install propane fireplaces as a back up in case there was a long power outage, but have never used them.
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dirttracker18
Well-known member
I also have no experience but I would think that the payback in Canada would be shorter, not longer.
Higher cost of heating (fuel cost are higher than in the US) and many more heating days than in the S US.
I will be looking into it myself this summer as it looks like the Federal tax credit will be returning.
I'd just like to say we have a 2 1/2 year old Water Furnance Synergy 3D Geo unit and it's actually very quiet. There is a louder clunk when it kicks on and off but when it's running, it's very quiet.
We got 30% off our entire system with no cap! Basically that brought the price down to the same price as a regular HVAC system was going to cost. It was a no-brainer.
I have a water furnace, has been pretty good, has the option to also heat the hot water and aux heating that just uses electricity if needed. Mine is an open loop that uses the well water. My house is around 4000 square feet so it takes a lot to heat and cool the space, the furnace works well. It is cheaper to cool than heat, the unit was installed when I bought the house, don't really ever hear it unless I am standing by the register right above the furnace. I notice things blowing around the registers more that I can hear it.
Teken
Well-known member
Just going to add my 2 cents. A 1400 sq foot house is small by today's standards, that is what mine is, and for a small house as such, it may not be worth the upfront cost of geothermal. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big geothermal fan, but for such a small house, a more modest upfront cost and less risky would be to super-insulate. This is what I plan on doing in my next house (current house had unfinished 2nd floor when we bought so the 2nd floor is over-insulated). We heat the entire house with 2.5 tons of wood pellets a year in Maine, which is pretty good. A super-insulated house could easily be 1 ton. Of course, if you've got the money, geothermal will be great, but a longer payback because your energy usage will be pretty low in such a small house.
Teken
Well-known member
Do you use this pellet stove as the primary heat source or just a source of added comfort so the furnace doesn't run as often?
With respect to what you said about square feet. This was told to me more than once as well. Not that its right or wrong, just that the smaller house was so well insulated and efficient that my ROI would be very long given the huge upfront price tag to install the system.
jkeyser14
Well-known member
Not that its right or wrong, just that the smaller house was so well insulated and efficient that my ROI would be very long given the huge upfront price tag to install the system.
My house is 1600 sq ft and our payback time will be about 7 years. Our sticker price was $27k for the geothermal, desuperheater, hot water storage tank, removal of the old ductwork, installation of new insulated ductwork, running new electrical, etc. We got $8100 back from the federal tax credit, $500 back from the local utility, and $1500 back from the state. That brought our total to ~$17k which was a bit over 2x the cost of a new furnace and AC unit which wasn't bad considering what we got for the money.
For us the geothermal was a no brainer. The cost to get the county to run a natural gas line to my house was over $100k! It was either stick with oil heat, a regular heat pump, or geothermal.
LSVLance
Well-known member
Water furnace owner here as well. I don't think I'd retrofit an older house to a geothermal unit...but if building new I'd try very hard to go with one if I could.
But don't stop there. Also use 6" well insulated exterior walls, good windows and doors, extra insulation in the attic etc etc. The better the house is insulated, the more you'll like and appreciate your geothermal HVAC.
We leave our thermostat set at 73 in the summertime and 69 in the winter and don't touch it. If it's nice outside, we just open the doors. We also leave our air handler fan on "on" 100% of the time.
From my experience, people that are used to a gas forced air furnace blasting out super hot air to raise the temp in their home a couple of degrees quickly...have a hard time getting used to a geothermal heat pump. They don't quite get it's best to find the right temp for the house and leave it there...but that's what a geothermal unit likes and how it works best.
Personally, I wish our thermostat had half degree increments because 69.5 degrees would be just ab out perfect for our house.
But don't stop there. Also use 6" well insulated exterior walls, good windows and doors, extra insulation in the attic etc etc. The better the house is insulated, the more you'll like and appreciate your geothermal HVAC.
We leave our thermostat set at 73 in the summertime and 69 in the winter and don't touch it. If it's nice outside, we just open the doors. We also leave our air handler fan on "on" 100% of the time.
From my experience, people that are used to a gas forced air furnace blasting out super hot air to raise the temp in their home a couple of degrees quickly...have a hard time getting used to a geothermal heat pump. They don't quite get it's best to find the right temp for the house and leave it there...but that's what a geothermal unit likes and how it works best.
Personally, I wish our thermostat had half degree increments because 69.5 degrees would be just ab out perfect for our house.
Teken
Well-known member
Could you please explain how you came up with the ROI of 7 years for me? I want to make sure I am using the same initial costs and other factors to get the ROI for this long term project.
jkeyser14
Well-known member
Could you please explain how you came up with the ROI of 7 years for me? I want to make sure I am using the same initial costs and other factors to get the ROI for this long term project.
My house is small. The attic is insulated to R-49, but the walls are plaster with no insulation and no space for any behind the lathe. The majority of the windows are single pane, but we've managed to upgrade 3 of the 26 windows to triple pane.
Our bill when we were on oil heat ran $200-700 a month in the winter (depending on the temperature) with the price of heating oil sitting around $3.30 a gallon. We have 6-7 heating months a year here in MD (October thru April). Normally the months of January and February are the worst with average temperatures staying below freezing the entire month. On top of the heating oil bill our normal electric bill was $90-100.
Now that we are on geothermal our total electric bill during the heating months runs $150-250 a month. Our cost of electricity after all fees/taxes is currently $.14/kW hr. We are saving somewhere between $2k-$2.5k a year and the system cost us $17k after all of the various tax credits/incentives.
If you want to do more reading and see what sort of savings other people are getting, please check out this forum:
http://forum.geoexchange.org/geothermal-heat-pump-testimonials/
Teken
Well-known member
Awwwwwwwwwwww my eye's are bleeding . . .
So much to read on that forum !!! 
Thank you for taking the time to provide the link . . . It will be another great source of information for me and others in the not too distant future.
toyotadriver
Well-known member
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- Dec 30, 2010
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You have a lack of insulation problem....as I'm sure you're aware of. If your house was built to modern standards, the payback for the geothermal would be much much longer.
I personally feel that in moderate climates, you have to have a house bigger than 3000 sq ft (assuming modern construction standards) before geothermal pays for itself in a reasonable time frame. That changes if you live in a cold climate and have to heat a lot. The payback time for geothermal is even longer if you live in a primary cooling area.
jkeyser14
Well-known member
That's not entirely true, the cost of the system is proportional to the size of the install. The smaller the system, the less excavation, the less loop pipe, the cheaper the furnace, the fewer pumps you need, etc.