Geothermal is dead. :(

[babzog]

So my Waterfurnace screwed the pooch over the winter. Seems the heat exchanger leaked the R22 and contaminated the system. And the compressor is shot. And the air dyer is corroded. And my ins. co. is probably not going to cover it.

Repairs are over $5k and a replacement unit is just over $14k! And since it's a replacement only, I would only qualify for $1700 in grants (for which I'd have to pay $350 to get the home energy audit).

Geothernal is nice and all, but they're pricey to install, they cost a lot to operate monthly and they're costly as hell to repair. Lifetime - well, the warranty is 10 years. Mine is 19 years old and is completely shot. The heat is also gradual - no nice blast of heat when you really want to feel it.

By way of comparison, a combination wood/oil unit will last years and years. If a part fails, it's probably the motor - easily replaced. We had oil for years growing up and never had more than a motor fail on it. Brother installed a combo unit a few years ago and loves it - tries to use wood as much as he can and use the oil to supplement. But, the installed cost would be probably only $2-3k less than a new geothermal unit (incl. the chimney, tank, furnace, air conditioner, ductwork alterations - the basic infrastructure, none of which I have).

Maybe a combination gas/wood furnace, but I don't know if those exist? Would save some by not having to put in an oil tank but then I'd be burning more expensive LP gas.

So, what do you guys think? Geothermal again or yank it and go with the tried and true? How do the operating costs of oil compare to geothermal?

 

[walrus]

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So, what do you guys think? Geothermal again or yank it and go with the tried and true? How do the operating costs of oil compare to geothermal?

Thats going to depend on what you pay for electricity. In Maine oil is king for heating homes but lots of folks got away from it when the price spiked and geothermal and air to air heat pumps got some traction. Oil dropped and they lost their traction. Oil will spike again though and stay up at some point. I heat with wood but the mess is something to consider as is the hard work in getting it cut split and in the house. For wood options got to www. hearth.com. Wood Gasifier boilers with a large tank for storage are expensive but excellent ways to get heat and hot water out of wood with great efficiency

 

[Drew_flux]

Babzog, geothermal? As in drilled down into the ground to heat water to a boiler/steampump? The local county here in australia would never allow that.

 

[babzog]

Babzog, geothermal? As in drilled down into the ground to heat water to a boiler/steampump? The local county here in australia would never allow that.

Not quite. It draws water from the well, extracts heat from it during heating season or puts heat into it during cooling. The water is then dumped into a pond in my case, but these days, new installs must return water to a second well.

This is referred to as an open loop system. Cheapest but subject to contamination from the water. Closed loop systems are more expensive but rely on a glycol type solution in the piping network that is sunk into the ground, immersed in a lake, etc. Contamination is minimized, which means you can use cheaper components in the heat exchanger, etc.

They operate by relying on the fact that the incoming water/glycol is a (year-round) constant temperature, exchanging heat inside the unit, and then returning the solution to the ground/lake at about an 8degF difference.

 

[iamhomeless]

Drew, the Geothermal you are thinking of is GeoThermal Power, where electricity is generated by drawing superheated water from magma pockets. It is crazy awesome, but the US doesn't have the volcanic activity for that stuff.

WHat Babzog is talking about is Geothermal heating or GeoExchange, and it is actually pretty cool in itself. Ground water has an average temperature of about 57 F in the states. It takes a whole lot less energy to heat a building to 70 when you are starting with 57 water than when you are starting with 32 air. The same is true for cooling.

 

[WF_Inc]

babzog,

We have read through your comments regarding your WaterFurnace unit. We are represented by a distributor in your area. The distributor is Eden Energy. We would suggest contacting them at 519-821-8478, as they would be more than happy to be of assistance.

WaterFurnace International, Inc.

 

[enrgeezone]

I would have to agree I am a owner of a HVAC co here in NJ the geothermal is a great thought but has its share of bumps in the road repair being the biggest. There is a co out there called yukon. google them you will find their website.....We have installed several here in NJ and they are a very nice unit....wood burner with oil back up built very well and easy to repair. parts are for the most part available off the shelf.. if this is the route you are looking for I would use them hands down.... they are much nicer built than any others I have seen on the market....good luck..

 

[JCByrd24]

If you already have the wells I can't imagine why you'd go away from geothermal at this point. Do the repairs and don't look back, or call someone else, waterfurnace isn't the only player anymore. Install a wood stove if you want to get into wood too, but if you think the monthly cost of geothermal is expensive I can't imagine what your oil bill would be like.

 

[jkeyser14]

I think you need to rethink your situation...

Your system is 19 years old, that's 9 years longer than a typical natural gas or oil furnace will last. At twice the cost as a natural gas or oil furnace you have been getting heating AND cooling with the equipment lasting twice as long. Also, how much money has it saved you in those 19 years when compared to oil heat? Any furnace that old will cost you a lot to keep running each month.

 

[Keep]

So my Waterfurnace screwed the pooch over the winter. Seems the heat exchanger leaked the R22 and contaminated the system. And the compressor is shot. And the air dyer is corroded. And my ins. co. is probably not going to cover it.

Repairs are over $5k and a replacement unit is just over $14k! And since it's a replacement only, I would only qualify for $1700 in grants (for which I'd have to pay $350 to get the home energy audit).

Geothernal is nice and all, but they're pricey to install, they cost a lot to operate monthly and they're costly as hell to repair. Lifetime - well, the warranty is 10 years. Mine is 19 years old and is completely shot. The heat is also gradual - no nice blast of heat when you really want to feel it.

By way of comparison, a combination wood/oil unit will last years and years. If a part fails, it's probably the motor - easily replaced. We had oil for years growing up and never had more than a motor fail on it. Brother installed a combo unit a few years ago and loves it - tries to use wood as much as he can and use the oil to supplement. But, the installed cost would be probably only $2-3k less than a new geothermal unit (incl. the chimney, tank, furnace, air conditioner, ductwork alterations - the basic infrastructure, none of which I have).

Maybe a combination gas/wood furnace, but I don't know if those exist? Would save some by not having to put in an oil tank but then I'd be burning more expensive LP gas.

So, what do you guys think? Geothermal again or yank it and go with the tried and true? How do the operating costs of oil compare to geothermal?

Not sure where in Ontario you are but here are some prices for ng and oil use over the winter

We have ng in the house, a 96% furnace and keep the house at 19 during the winter, it turns itself down during the day to 16, we are on a contract with the ng folks at 2.9c we averaged $175 a month this year for heating. 2600sf house. With all new windows/doors and all the sealing/insulating done for the audit.

Mother in law has oil, 900sf house though she keeps it at around 75 all day she was paying around $500 a fill up and it was roughly every 6 weeks she filled up. 2 years ago it was around $900 a fill up.

Not sure what you are paying to run your geo system but I would love to have one here. In the summer you can count on the electric bill being roughly $150 using AC.

If you go through the audit there are other rebates out there to look into.

 

[babzog]

If you already have the wells I can't imagine why you'd go away from geothermal at this point. Do the repairs and don't look back, or call someone else, waterfurnace isn't the only player anymore. Install a wood stove if you want to get into wood too, but if you think the monthly cost of geothermal is expensive I can't imagine what your oil bill would be like.

When the system was installed, an open loop was permissible in my area. Today, they don't allow that - water must be returned to the aquifer. I'm hoping I won't have to drill another well - there's another $5k, plus trenching, etc.

I put in a woodstove in the basement nine years ago (great investment!), which certainly helps warm the house during the coldest days. I'd love to have an analysis done of oil vs gas vs geo for this house but I haven't yet encountered a contractor capable of doing that. Maybe the energy audit will help me out there.

I think you need to rethink your situation...

Your system is 19 years old, that's 9 years longer than a typical natural gas or oil furnace will last. At twice the cost as a natural gas or oil furnace you have been getting heating AND cooling with the equipment lasting twice as long. Also, how much money has it saved you in those 19 years when compared to oil heat? Any furnace that old will cost you a lot to keep running each month.

10 year lifespan for an oil or gas furnace? Wow.. the times have certainly changed.. the old oil furnace in the house I grew up in and my gran's old place were well over 20 years old by the time I moved out and the houses were sold... no problems with either. I've heard similar stories from others with older units - some as old as 50 years!

You're right though, I might need to rethink the situation and I'm certainly open to being educated on this subject. I have no idea how much the unit has cost me or saved me compared to an alternate unit.

 

[rodnok1]

I would think all they money you have saved from geo would justify another system, I would install a closed loop if you have the room.

 

[jkeyser14]

You're right though, I might need to rethink the situation and I'm certainly open to being educated on this subject. I have no idea how much the unit has cost me or saved me compared to an alternate unit.

Take a look at this page, it breaks down btu's per $ of different systems:
http://www.justgeothermal.com/geoeconomics.html

Geothermal operating costs should be roughly half of natural gas or heating oil depending on local supplier costs. If you add in a desuperheater you save even more since your hot water is made with the same type of savings (4x cheaper than electric, 2x cheaper than oil and ng).

 

[enrgeezone]

I'd like to see what you have spent on repairs over the last 19yrs on that geo unit...... here in nj they have no hang time. I see that you have a open loop system ...lucky in one sense spring a leak on a system that is closed and coiled in the ground with glycol and find the leak! talk about costly! yikes!,... here in NJ we have a 32' frost line at times, try diggin that frozen ground for the repair on a cold winter! open that wallet!...as far as a 10 yr life span? what co is that? my personal home is now at 12 yrs plus 95% efficent gas fired and truth be told I have never had the door off the unit.... air filters and a seasonal service for the humidifier and I'm good to go... hell these new gas furnaces come with a ten year part warranty top to bottom and a full lifetime on the heat exchanger..... technology has come a long way with the newer gas fired furnaces..... They vent in PVC or ABS no need for a new chimney...chances are that it will retro fit into your duct system you now have.....I'd like to see an amorization on what that geo cost to operate vers gas and oil as well..... plus no one can tell me that a geo unit gives ya that warm feeling like a forced hot air system does........ I have also installed a few systems that run a heat pump with gas or oil back up... they are still a better solution from what I have seen in my opinion... I think the concept of geo is great but needs better tuning and higher quality of materials to be a true quality system...then comes the problem of who wants to pay for it?.... at least with a 95% furnace you know you are getting .95 on a dollar and only a 5% loss out the vent... its like the chicken or the egg we all have our thoughts of what was what....but when it comes down to it you are the one that has to have the answer. I don't know if you looked for that yukon system or not? that may be a player aswell.... good luck in your quest...whatever it may be....

 

[fatboy99]

Would the pond your dumping the water in currently be big enough to put the loop's in it ? Huntington college has a geothermal system in one of it's building's and they put the loop's in the pond. This was in 1986 i worked for the local cement company that summer and deliverd cement to fill weight boxes on the loop frame work. Just a thought

 

[babzog]

jkeyser14: Thanks for the link - some very interesting reading there concerning the efficiencies of the various fuels. A good starting point.

enrgeezone: yes, I checked out the yukon site earlier today. Looks like a nice unit. I think my brother installed a Newmac wood/oil unit. Looks like they might have a wood/gas unit too (but the website isn't the best). Regarding the yukon, I like the reports of long implementation times - 20+ years with no problems! Only problem I see is my ductwork - the wall and floor joist cavities are extensively used as cold air returns, plus the existing hot air plenum is pretty tight to the joists. With the basement ceiling being finished, this could be a huge and costly problem.

fatboy99: That's a good question. It's a small pond, maybe 20'x30' (oval) and maybe 10-15' deep in the center. Dunno if it would be large enough. I'll have to ask about that.

 

[sdowney717]

glycol type solution in the piping network that is sunk into the ground, immersed in a lake, etc. Contamination is minimized, which means you can use cheaper components in the heat exchanger, etc.

this makes sense. Just like a car use antifreeze to keep corrosion low.

The other type of geothermal is to dig a trench thru the yard and lay pipe.

On my boat, there is a heat pump that uses seawater piped thru a heat exchanger. That was built in 1970 a monel copper nickel heat exchanger and has not weakened or corroded. I was thinking if you have a pond, could you get a system that would work like a boat system?

 

[wfopete]

I have a 4 year old WF geo set up. Last year the coil leaked the RF out too. $1500 and two weeks to repair. The local dealer here has made a killing off Geo installs. What I hate is that that warranty on these things is weak and parts cost are crazy. You can buy a car that can go for years and thousands of miles in all sorts of conditions but a Geo set up is stationary and inclosed, yet is less reliable. The Geo industry needs to get it together.

I would stick it out with Geo but look for a decent dealer with a decent product warranty.

 

[sdowney717]

Cupronickel or copper-nickel (sometimes incorrectly referred to as "cupernickel") is an alloy of copper that contains nickel and strengthening elements, such as iron and manganese. Cupronickel is highly resistant to corrosion in seawater, because its electrode potential is adjusted to be neutral with regard to seawater. Because of this, it is used for piping, heat exchangers and condensers in seawater systems as well as marine hardware, and sometimes for the propellers, crankshafts and hulls of premium tugboats, fishing boats and other working boats.

they are cheaping out on you guys, not using cupronickel parts.

 

[babzog]

The original one that died was (probably) not. The new spec'ed one (still awaiting word as to whether it's covered or not) would be cupronickel.

 

[dirttracker18]

I am in N. Ontario and my wife and I are going to look into geo this summer and try to take advantage of the grants available.
I think you are going to have a big surprise switching back to any fuel based system. NG is at a good price right now but I don't image that will still low.
Unfortunately we only have propane and cannot get NG. The shop is electric hot water in floor and I almost died this winter when the bill came in.
We are hoping to run both the house and shop on the geo and drop our bills.
If it were me I would find out if I can access the grants as that would be a big help. The province is ponying up for half the eco inspection right now and matching any fedral grants you get.
Worth a look to keep your sytem going. Fuel is going up not down so prices will only get higher. Cutting and splitting wood gets old fast too.
IMO

 

[WF_Inc]

wfopete,

We have read through your comments and are puzzled by your reference to the parts cost under warranty. If you would be willing to provide us with your model and serial numbers, we would be more than happy to look into this further, and offer assistance in resolving your issue.

 

[wfopete]

The parts were not under warranty according to my dealer who installed the unit. They said (and wrote on the W.O.) that only the compressor was covered.

This is the kind of stuff I wish I had done some research on before purchasing the unit.

I'll PM you on the details.

 

[JB740i]

I love it when manufacturers show up on threads. I hope everyone gets their issues resolved.

 

[babzog]

Yeah, guess we caught someone's attention.

My ins. is not going to cover it (bastards have an 'out' for everything - why even bother having the coverage?) so it looks like I'll have to repair the old girl. Not happy having to spend the welder and tablesaw budget on a furnace.

 

[JCByrd24]

Insurance is not intended to replace/repair stuff that wears out...your car insurance doesn't cover your transmission, your homeowners doesn't replace worn out shingles. No surprises there.

 

[babzog]

That's what they're claiming to be behind their refusal to pay up, though the contract I have (just re-read it) doesn't list "age" as being an exclusion. Lack of maintenance, yes, other things yes, but not age (nor do they even define "age" - how old must something be before it's not covered). Seems their terms and conditions are different than the list they gave me. This started from a leak/crack in the heat exchanger... I'm not an HVAC guy but I would expect moving parts (ie: compressor) to fail over time before non-moving parts.

This policy is not the home fire / liability / etc insurance that we all get. This is a home warranty ins. program we signed onto when we re-fi'd the mortgage. Supposed to cover all systems in the house in the event of failure (kinda like the limited plans that folks sign onto with the oil/gas co. for protection of the furnace, water heater, etc). But it seems hard to make a claim since they can always deny it, saying "it wore out, we're not covering it" to just about anything. Total scam.

 

[Robbo]

That's what they're claiming to be behind their refusal to pay up, though the contract I have (just re-read it) doesn't list "age" as being an exclusion. Lack of maintenance, yes, other things yes, but not age (nor do they even define "age" - how old must something be before it's not covered). Seems their terms and conditions are different than the list they gave me. This started from a leak/crack in the heat exchanger... I'm not an HVAC guy but I would expect moving parts (ie: compressor) to fail over time before non-moving parts.

This policy is not the home fire / liability / etc insurance that we all get. This is a home warranty ins. program we signed onto when we re-fi'd the mortgage. Supposed to cover all systems in the house in the event of failure (kinda like the limited plans that folks sign onto with the oil/gas co. for protection of the furnace, water heater, etc). But it seems hard to make a claim since they can always deny it, saying "it wore out, we're not covering it" to just about anything. Total scam.

yeah, we recently bought a house, and our realtor put in the contract to have one of those and gave me three company choices that she uses... I decided to do a little research on which one was best and after researching all three (and several others while looking) I just told her to change the contract to save us the $400... google the company name that your warranty is through and I'm sure you'll quickly have enough stories of them screwing people over in every way possible (saying your _____ is worn out, pre-existing condition, having to use the technicians that they send out who will write it up so that it gets denied, putting used parts on, etc.... there were so many different ways they work to get out of it it's crazy) that you could read them for a month...

Rob

 

[jkeyser14]

yeah, we recently bought a house, and our realtor put in the contract to have one of those and gave me three company choices that she uses... I decided to do a little research on which one was best and after researching all three (and several others while looking) I just told her to change the contract to save us the $400... google the company name that your warranty is through and I'm sure you'll quickly have enough stories of them screwing people over in every way possible (saying your _____ is worn out, pre-existing condition, having to use the technicians that they send out who will write it up so that it gets denied, putting used parts on, etc.... there were so many different ways they work to get out of it it's crazy) that you could read them for a month...

Rob

Right, I tried to use my warranty to get a leaking pipe fixed. A company down the street was called to do the work, came out, cut the bad section out and crimped on new section. He was inside for less than 3 minutes, had a 5 minute drive each way, then had the balls to ask me what my deductable was and charge me the full amount ($150) for the call. I should have just fixed it myself or called to see what it would have cost without getting the insurance involved.