Wife and I are looking at possibly building a new house in the next couple years. Site we are purchasing has access to natural gas, will cost 9000 to bring it in. This would be roughly the same cost as what the Geothermal wells would run. We are looking at a shouse type house with infloor heat, would still need duct work for heat on second story/ac. Wondering what your guys thoughts are on one vs the other. Our current place has Geothermal that we put in 2013 and has worked great, we were on propane before and needed to upgrade ac/furnace so we did geo, we do have an electric boiler for our infloor heat. I believe off peak rate for geo at new place would be .03KWH and a therm of natural gas would be about .35/therm.
Geothermal vs Natural gas
- Thread starter bwoody
- Start date
I have Geo and like it, it would be better if I had better water.
I'd still put the natural gas in, even with Geo. My wife hates our electric stove.
And when the power is out, it would be really nice to have nat gas. Either to run a burner on the stove or to run a generator.
I'd still put the natural gas in, even with Geo. My wife hates our electric stove.
And when the power is out, it would be really nice to have nat gas. Either to run a burner on the stove or to run a generator.
Do a cost per million BTU and sort it out. Natural gas is hard to beat, price wise.
Geo generally will cost more in maintenance over the years. Plus when geo fails, it can fail hard and expensive. I worked in HVAC for years and geo was great for the first few years, then usually started to have issues as the system got older. Compressor change outs were common after ten years and may cost $1,500 to replace.
I remember a few customers starting out with geo and when the equipment needed replacement they went with natural gas.
Gas forced air is usually fairly inexpensive to maintain.
Geo generally will cost more in maintenance over the years. Plus when geo fails, it can fail hard and expensive. I worked in HVAC for years and geo was great for the first few years, then usually started to have issues as the system got older. Compressor change outs were common after ten years and may cost $1,500 to replace.
I remember a few customers starting out with geo and when the equipment needed replacement they went with natural gas.
Gas forced air is usually fairly inexpensive to maintain.
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Many homes in my area used GEO with (well) water to air heat pump or closed ground loop system.
DNR has changed some rules on well water use and returning the water to the ground water.
These systems were designed and built to get off propane.
Some had propane as a backup.
When Nat Gas became available many of these systems were switched over to NAT GAS for cost* of operation and maintenance ……..there was also a comfort factor involved. The Nat Gas was a fraction of the propane cost with much better price stability.
The cost of pumping water from a 200’-300’ well is often not accounted for in some systems.
Today many areas have banned the two well system………..especially in areas with water shortages.
New home:
insulation and building sealed …..research LEEDS
Nat Gas
DNR has changed some rules on well water use and returning the water to the ground water.
These systems were designed and built to get off propane.
Some had propane as a backup.
When Nat Gas became available many of these systems were switched over to NAT GAS for cost* of operation and maintenance ……..there was also a comfort factor involved. The Nat Gas was a fraction of the propane cost with much better price stability.
The cost of pumping water from a 200’-300’ well is often not accounted for in some systems.
Today many areas have banned the two well system………..especially in areas with water shortages.
New home:
insulation and building sealed …..research LEEDS
Nat Gas
With the Geo wells being that cheap I can't see how going that direction would not be wise .... this would give you both heat and ac in the ductwork.
You can also make hot water for both the floor and domestic with the geo as well -- it would seem the most logical thing to do.
Air to Air heat pumps are getting very good -- but your well cost is so cheap. I think you will find the payback will be there vs jsut the gas running cost.
IMO -- the gas connection is another calculation. I prefer gas stoves and any property that I build where I'm going to be spending any serious time .... gets a generator. So I have to have gas of some sort .... my latest build has no NG available. Getting a 1k propane tank installed is just north of 5k .... so your 9k for NG would have been the way I would have gone.
At my current house the cost to dig the three (3) wells through limestone -- have to have closed loops -- was just over 60k. The payback even using propane was 20 years w/ a spray foamed building. The house had to have both a propane furnace and boiler -- air to air heatpumps. Gas dryer
You can also make hot water for both the floor and domestic with the geo as well -- it would seem the most logical thing to do.
Air to Air heat pumps are getting very good -- but your well cost is so cheap. I think you will find the payback will be there vs jsut the gas running cost.
IMO -- the gas connection is another calculation. I prefer gas stoves and any property that I build where I'm going to be spending any serious time .... gets a generator. So I have to have gas of some sort .... my latest build has no NG available. Getting a 1k propane tank installed is just north of 5k .... so your 9k for NG would have been the way I would have gone.
At my current house the cost to dig the three (3) wells through limestone -- have to have closed loops -- was just over 60k. The payback even using propane was 20 years w/ a spray foamed building. The house had to have both a propane furnace and boiler -- air to air heatpumps. Gas dryer
WisJim
Well-known member
Installing superior insulation and sealing can reduce the need for heating and cooling to a minimum .
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
The biggest problem with geothermal is insufficient capacity of the loop. This is a HUGE problem if you have a horizontal system. You are basically screwed ! On a vertical system you can drill another well.
Probably the most efficient and most comfortable system would be geothermal to a heat pump to a heat exchanger for radiant in floor heat. Not common in the US but it is used in other parts of the world. It IS EXPENSIVE to install, but very cost effective to operate.
One thing I would want on an geothermal system is a temperature gauge on both the ground water inlet and outlet. If the ground water coming in is not above 50F, you have a problem !
Probably the most efficient and most comfortable system would be geothermal to a heat pump to a heat exchanger for radiant in floor heat. Not common in the US but it is used in other parts of the world. It IS EXPENSIVE to install, but very cost effective to operate.
One thing I would want on an geothermal system is a temperature gauge on both the ground water inlet and outlet. If the ground water coming in is not above 50F, you have a problem !
The ground water temps have to be factored and the system sized for the temps. Would you rather have 45 degree water or 10 degree air feeding a system?
Heat pumps confuse people -- it's a hard concept to grasp. How can there be any heat at 5 degrees ... and how do I get it. There is and you can ...
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
The air is basically free. The 45 degree moving water is expensive.
A one semester college level course in Thermodynamics and the basic concepts are simple. A heat pump just moves energy (in what we like to call heat) from point A to point B.
you might want to try out induction. I've tried out one of the cheapo amazon single burners and it's pretty great. I imagine a proper countertop unit that's got real power and fits my pans would be even better.
But ... you made a comment about the water temp under 50 degrees. The cost to move the water is the same at any temp ....
HoosierBuddy
Well-known member
NG vs Geothermal is going to be very similar from an operating cost perspective. The only big advantage NG may have is at end-of-life for the geo system. I've seen several times when loops fail in the winter when it is difficult to get a quick replacement, and a few months of running on emergency (resistance) back up has eaten up a few cubic yards of dollar bills.
If it was my house, I'd go NG for heat and look into an air source heat pump for A/C and heat as economical. I'd also be looking at the $9000 for gas install and see if I could DIY that or reduce it in some meaningful way. NG service line in bulk is on the order of 50 cents a foot. I sometimes hear of consumers who seem to be paying a inordinate amount for underground NG installation. Not saying you are one...as I have no idea how long the run is.
Oh...and you'll want to go NG on the water heater as well. That will save you a few hundred per year over a standard electric water heater.
Geothermal would not be a "bad choice" though. Far from it.
Phil
If it was my house, I'd go NG for heat and look into an air source heat pump for A/C and heat as economical. I'd also be looking at the $9000 for gas install and see if I could DIY that or reduce it in some meaningful way. NG service line in bulk is on the order of 50 cents a foot. I sometimes hear of consumers who seem to be paying a inordinate amount for underground NG installation. Not saying you are one...as I have no idea how long the run is.
Oh...and you'll want to go NG on the water heater as well. That will save you a few hundred per year over a standard electric water heater.
Geothermal would not be a "bad choice" though. Far from it.
Phil
rlitman
Well-known member
My home is heated with NG. When I installed a multi-head mini-split in my basement, I went with one that was heat capable. For two winters now, I have heated by basement with it, and my increased cost of electric to heat that floor was less than half of what I saved on NG. Mine are air-air systems, so geothermal will be even more efficient, and have a wider outdoor temperature operating range as well. Plus, my electric cost is several times the national average.
So, energy wise when it comes to TCO, geothermal wins.
Many NG grids are limiting expansion, and there may come a time where people looking to get NG service may be SOL. That being said, I believe that NG will be around for at least a few lifetimes, so having an NG connection adds real value to your home. More than a geothermal system, since the NG hookup doesn't depreciate with age. Even if you only connect to run a stove, you'll have it available to run a generator too (unless you're in Texas), among other uses. It can save a bundle on clothes drying.
So, energy wise when it comes to TCO, geothermal wins.
Many NG grids are limiting expansion, and there may come a time where people looking to get NG service may be SOL. That being said, I believe that NG will be around for at least a few lifetimes, so having an NG connection adds real value to your home. More than a geothermal system, since the NG hookup doesn't depreciate with age. Even if you only connect to run a stove, you'll have it available to run a generator too (unless you're in Texas), among other uses. It can save a bundle on clothes drying.
My head is spining ... less that 1/2 what I saved on natural gas. So if you save $10 .... you spent $4 on electric?
With my electric .. NG is easy 1/4 the cost per BTU -- so even at 3+ COP I'm not going to get a savings with a heatpump.
rlitman
Well-known member
Yes, exactly those numbers. Here, NG per therm (@ 80% efficiency) is about double the price of resistance electric per therm (@ 100% efficiency), but heat pumps operate at around 500% efficiency, with geothermal topping that.
OP is building a new home………who in their right mind would even consider a 80% Nat Gas furnace ?
Nat gas more expensive than electric no matter the appliance efficiency choice is an extremely rare occurrence in a normal market place.
Even when a range of electric prices are considered, natural gas prices are consistently two to three times lower than electric prices, in some areas 3-5 times lower is the norm.
Nat gas more expensive than electric no matter the appliance efficiency choice is an extremely rare occurrence in a normal market place.
Even when a range of electric prices are considered, natural gas prices are consistently two to three times lower than electric prices, in some areas 3-5 times lower is the norm.
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HoosierBuddy
Well-known member
That is so far outside my experience that I'm having trouble getting my head around it.
Cost of gas here is about $.70 per therm which is equal to $.023/KWH power and power is about 6 times that.
Oh, I'd love to give geothermal a try! Sounds like a tailor-made natural equivalent to heat a home.
Though I'm sure there are alot of technical issues to deal with that I'm not aware of. It's easy to shoot off your mouth when you're just a spectator.
Though I'm sure there are alot of technical issues to deal with that I'm not aware of. It's easy to shoot off your mouth when you're just a spectator.
Agree
For another comparison our Nat gas usually ranges at $.14-.22 per therm.
There was a one time blip where in the summer a month they charged $ .70 therm to off set a supply issue earlier in the year. They were forced to buy at market gas high during an unexpected cold snap In that prior winter. They sent a letter of apology and an explanation.
Relax
Well-known member
OP, if you already had Geo in your previous home for 8 years, you probably know all the ups and downs by now. What didn't you like about it that makes you ask if you should go NG?
HoosierBuddy
Well-known member
Maybe part of the issue here is miscommunication on what is a therm. A therm is 100,000 BTUs of energy.
This should not be confused with DTH which is a Deka Therm or 10 therms or 1,000,000 BTUs of energy.
Today as I post this, U.S. natural gas is trading at $3.87 per DTH at the Henry Hub. This is a wholesale price and would not include the cost of interstate or intrastate pipelines (your local gas company) which would be added to the Henry Hub Price.
Showkey....you are buying your gas for 1/2 the Henry Hub price? Are you getting this directly from a natural gas well or landfill or such?
TRITOON
Well-known member
Location? Ground temps?
I live in a state thats an exporter of natural gas, and generally like it on my primary house. I also have a air source heat pump at the lake where natural gas isn't available. I think we all saw last year the limitations of natural gas even though its historically been stable.
All other things being equal, a few service calls for ground source heat pump would easily eat up any savings over ng.
I live in a state thats an exporter of natural gas, and generally like it on my primary house. I also have a air source heat pump at the lake where natural gas isn't available. I think we all saw last year the limitations of natural gas even though its historically been stable.
All other things being equal, a few service calls for ground source heat pump would easily eat up any savings over ng.
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“Showkey....you are buying your gas for 1/2 the Henry Hub price? Are you getting this directly from a natural gas well or landfill or such?”
My gas is supplied by the local utility company.
Typical summer month
From the bill:
40CCF x 1.031 BTU = 41.2 therms
41.2 therms at $.22020 for 19 days equals $5.39
41.2 terms at $.14550 for 13 days equals $2.44
Month gas total $7.83
Delivery charge based on 41.2 therms $4.74
Fixed meter charge $17.88
Last February:
229.6 Therms at $0.32430 (18/28 Days)
229.6 Therms at $0.34930 (10/28 Days)
If others are charged gas measured by a different method:
You can convert natural gas prices from one price basis to another with these formulas (assuming a heat content of natural gas of 1,037 Btu per cubic foot):
$ per Ccf divided by 1.037 equals $ per therm
$ per therm multiplied by 1.037 equals $ per Ccf
$ per Mcf divided by 1.037 equals $ per MMBtu
$ per Mcf divided by 10.37 equals $ per therm
$ per MMBtu multiplied by 1.037 equals $ per Mcf
$ per therm multiplied by 10.37 equals $ per Mcf
When said the adjusted amount for 2 months in make for market adjustment the price did temporarily go to $.43 and $.74 per therm which might go with the hub price of $ .387/therm.
This whole adjustment rate was due to not storing enough gas at those lower contract price negotiated months or a year earlier ???
My gas is supplied by the local utility company.
Typical summer month
From the bill:
40CCF x 1.031 BTU = 41.2 therms
41.2 therms at $.22020 for 19 days equals $5.39
41.2 terms at $.14550 for 13 days equals $2.44
Month gas total $7.83
Delivery charge based on 41.2 therms $4.74
Fixed meter charge $17.88
Last February:
229.6 Therms at $0.32430 (18/28 Days)
229.6 Therms at $0.34930 (10/28 Days)
If others are charged gas measured by a different method:
You can convert natural gas prices from one price basis to another with these formulas (assuming a heat content of natural gas of 1,037 Btu per cubic foot):
$ per Ccf divided by 1.037 equals $ per therm
$ per therm multiplied by 1.037 equals $ per Ccf
$ per Mcf divided by 1.037 equals $ per MMBtu
$ per Mcf divided by 10.37 equals $ per therm
$ per MMBtu multiplied by 1.037 equals $ per Mcf
$ per therm multiplied by 10.37 equals $ per Mcf
When said the adjusted amount for 2 months in make for market adjustment the price did temporarily go to $.43 and $.74 per therm which might go with the hub price of $ .387/therm.
This whole adjustment rate was due to not storing enough gas at those lower contract price negotiated months or a year earlier ???
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86turbodsl
Well-known member
OP, if you can get NG where you're at, you'd be a fool to do anything else with the current pricing. I have geo horiztontal loop, propane backup. In floor radiant, forced air chiller AC. My basement mechanical room looks like a nuclear sub. I can't get NG here. My heat / AC is very comfortable. It cost a fortune. It would have been worse if i hadn't been an ME and did most of my own work. I bought a 1000 gallon propane tank and buy in the summer for the year. The cost of geo vs propane has been a wash since i started doing that.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
I don't have any hard data to back me up, but geothermal, done with wells not ground loops, will beat NG on operating costs. Several states have now mandated that any new municipal buildings have geothermal heat pumps.
Any GOOD installation would not have resistance heating as a backup. That just implies the the system designer and installer have no faith in there calculations.
ALL heat pump installations need a backup. Either a whole house generator or "single point" propane heat source.
theoldwizard1
Well-known member
The biggest negative for geothermal is the installation cost.
If you live in an area that requires a large number of cooling days per year, you will recover this cost quicker.
HoosierBuddy
Well-known member
Showkey...I get it now. You are showing last year's costs when we were in the Pandemic dip. Your current prices are higher I'm sure. Also, they are billing the "delivery" cost separately. Normally I just take the total bill, divide it by the therms and call that the cost/therm.
On natural gas storage....there isn't enough storage in the United States to store all winter gas needs using physical gas. Likely not by a factor of 10. Price fixing requires contracts for future purchases at set volumes for set pricing. HOWEVER, what happened last winter was producers were able to get out of delivering gas at the agreed volume by claiming "Force Majeure" when unusually cold temperatures froze off wells in Texas and Oklahoma. Gas companies who had hedged against higher prices ended up having to go back into the market and paying some times 100 to 500 times the previously negotiated prices to keep enough gas flowing to keep their customers furnaces running.
Anyone that owned physical gas in storage pulled it out during that period....but it wasn't nearly enough to cover the shortfall caused by gas wells that were not properly hardened against freezing temperatures.
On natural gas storage....there isn't enough storage in the United States to store all winter gas needs using physical gas. Likely not by a factor of 10. Price fixing requires contracts for future purchases at set volumes for set pricing. HOWEVER, what happened last winter was producers were able to get out of delivering gas at the agreed volume by claiming "Force Majeure" when unusually cold temperatures froze off wells in Texas and Oklahoma. Gas companies who had hedged against higher prices ended up having to go back into the market and paying some times 100 to 500 times the previously negotiated prices to keep enough gas flowing to keep their customers furnaces running.
Anyone that owned physical gas in storage pulled it out during that period....but it wasn't nearly enough to cover the shortfall caused by gas wells that were not properly hardened against freezing temperatures.
TOW1, I know that the geos on commercial municipal buildings are excellent, but they are dedicated closed loop systems on the building side. Perhaps they should simply be looked at as “water source HP’s”. It can be a geo supply but frequently it is boiler/chiller fed. Still very efficient.
The other thing about geo is you have to have a really good mechanic to install the complete system. The above statement from an ME describing his mechanical room looking like a nuclear submarine means, to me, that I was right at home building them, but when I got out of the business and left the area, I know my customers had a hell of a time getting the right guys to care for them as time went on. You need a good duct guy, equipment guy, control electrician (likely not the same guy as an electrician), refrigeration guy, possible boiler guy and then the well/excavator guy. Many of those can be combined, but…maybe not! In todays world you will have a ball getting everyone together at the necessary time. The systems are frequently pretty convoluted and that in itself can be a problem. I used to do detailed isometric drawings of my systems with everything tagged and referenced in the drawings, component cut sheets and control diagrams. Sequence of operation details helped a lot.The owner got a copy, The mechanical room had a copy with a skull and crossbones on the cover warning about the hex which would befall anyone who removed it from the MR, I had a copy at the office and at home (prevented some night service calls). Geo systems are really great, but man they have to be very right out of the chute.
The other thing about geo is you have to have a really good mechanic to install the complete system. The above statement from an ME describing his mechanical room looking like a nuclear submarine means, to me, that I was right at home building them, but when I got out of the business and left the area, I know my customers had a hell of a time getting the right guys to care for them as time went on. You need a good duct guy, equipment guy, control electrician (likely not the same guy as an electrician), refrigeration guy, possible boiler guy and then the well/excavator guy. Many of those can be combined, but…maybe not! In todays world you will have a ball getting everyone together at the necessary time. The systems are frequently pretty convoluted and that in itself can be a problem. I used to do detailed isometric drawings of my systems with everything tagged and referenced in the drawings, component cut sheets and control diagrams. Sequence of operation details helped a lot.The owner got a copy, The mechanical room had a copy with a skull and crossbones on the cover warning about the hex which would befall anyone who removed it from the MR, I had a copy at the office and at home (prevented some night service calls). Geo systems are really great, but man they have to be very right out of the chute.
jkeyser14
Well-known member
Geothermal systems aren't that complex... There is a ground loop that needs to be the proper length of pipe for your soil type, and then there's the indoor furnace which will either have an internal or external pump. That's it, two pieces, no nuclear submarine craziness. There's no outdoor compressor like a normal heat pump, so in some ways they are less complex.
4 FN 27
ALLIANCE MEMBER
I have wells on the house. And a Loop Field on the shop. Not sure what your hang up is with loops...been 6 years on the shop and no issues. If the system is designed for the proper load it should not matter if you have Wells or a Loop Field all things considered (water table, average depth and so on).
We could not use Wells on the shop due to the fact we hit fractured bedrock at 70-80 feet (again memory) thus we directional bored and pulled the lines back. No big deal and they did it for the same cost. After seeing both done I would go for the Loop Field any day over the Wells. Well drillers are slobs and left a big mess of mud, water and bentonite.
At the end of the day to heat my Shop in the coldest of winter months in Minnesota the highest bill was around $170+/- if memory serves me correctly and it is 10,574 sq ft. That is hard data and more on this site if you search Geo Thermal with my Screen name. You'll see several posts over the years.
Geo is effective if it is designed correctly and can save you tons of money with an initial higher investment up front. Based on 2008 electric rates the savings on the house and attached garages (both heated) over a 20 year period was estimated at $110,000.00 or $458 per month. The ROI was 4.6 years (I think, Memory again). Keep in mind at the time the Government was offering a 30% tax credit to and that is considered in the ROI.
Also note in order to get the discounted energy rate we are on the "Back up Relief" program which means we have a back up Natural Gas Boiler which heats the house when our PoCo decides to switch the power off on the Geo. No issue in the winter but in the summer can be an issue since we do not air condition with NG. But in my 12 years and 11 days of living here never noticed an issue...same goes with the shop.
OP investigate the contractor. Get feedback from customers. Do your research and invest if you plan on being there a while. The savings can be great...but only if they are in your pocket not the next home owner.
I am reall interested in hearing and seeing what you end up deciding. Good luck!!!
sms1974
Well-known member
Unfortunately most of this info is incorrect…
Location would be nice. Here on coast of Maine with no access to Natty Gas I would spend my money on insulation and tightness of house and then use mini splits for heat and cooling. Geo works here but you have a lot of moving parts plus the cost of drilling wells. No way buried pipe here works unless its one huge area.
jkeyser14
Well-known member
Again, there are not a lot of moving parts. It's only 3... Fan, Pump, Compressor Motor. And all three stay indoors unlike a mini-split or air source heat pump, so the geothermal systems tend to last much longer due to no UV or other environmental exposure to outdoor units.
Geo is all about the cost of the loop/ s .... in many areas doing horizontal loop/s will not work due to soil types and size of lot. The only solution is to drill wells. We can't use open systems where there is a transfer of water ... How many people have a lake?
There are fewer companies making the equipment. And yes, because of that it is a bit more money vs air based equipment -- but, that is not the real driver. It's the loops. In some areas where the soils are perfect and you have a big lot they are actually cheap to install --- it's all in the ability to get that loop capacity.
Even with my personal projects being on the high end I seem to always have rock or something that makes them problematic -- my latest project was over 60k for the 3 wells and there was a question about if the three would be enough -- some you don't know until you drill. On the AC side the three would have worked .. but, what do you do then with the heat? With propane Geo is great .... but with any question you still need a second system.
In many cases you do the math and the payback it way off in the future when you factor in the great advances in the air based heat pumps.
Also -- bigger buildings can have shorter payback. They did a big church not far from me a couple years ago and put the loops under the parking lot and on a field and they can switch them around depending on the water temps.
There are fewer companies making the equipment. And yes, because of that it is a bit more money vs air based equipment -- but, that is not the real driver. It's the loops. In some areas where the soils are perfect and you have a big lot they are actually cheap to install --- it's all in the ability to get that loop capacity.
Even with my personal projects being on the high end I seem to always have rock or something that makes them problematic -- my latest project was over 60k for the 3 wells and there was a question about if the three would be enough -- some you don't know until you drill. On the AC side the three would have worked .. but, what do you do then with the heat? With propane Geo is great .... but with any question you still need a second system.
In many cases you do the math and the payback it way off in the future when you factor in the great advances in the air based heat pumps.
Also -- bigger buildings can have shorter payback. They did a big church not far from me a couple years ago and put the loops under the parking lot and on a field and they can switch them around depending on the water temps.
Yeltdog, handling the heat in cooling mode was one of the benefits of the swimming pool as a source. Again, we put a glazed solar system on the pool and it provided the energy for the HP. In cooling we rejected heat to the pool. The pool would not be covered and we would have the deep space radiation cooling of the pool. One job we ended up having to install a small cooling tower as the pool just became to hot. One negative of this system ended up being the increase in pool chemicals as the high temps and lack of a cover burned them off. Again, these jobs were in ‘78-‘81, so… I worked on some direct geo jobs with the hot water resource here in the west. The Geo-Heat Center at Oregon Institute of Technology in Klamath Falls is a tremendous resource for info. I did a feasibility study with the DOE through OIT, studying a district heating cooling system for Calistoga, CA, Calistoga sits on a lake of high temp water. Problem was that it had 10ppm on boron. Taht will not hurt humans, but .5 ppm will kill a grape vine. This being in the Napa Valley the grape growers thought it a good idea to keep the water in the ground. There is no joy taking the growers on there
Using the pool is an interesting concept ..... I'm a nerd to a point. Have tried some interesting ideas. My neighbor actually used pex and insulation on his pool with the geo discharge prior to the return loop ... he says it works .... but he has all kinds of back ups.Yeltdog, handling the heat in cooling mode was one of the benefits of the swimming pool as a source. Again, we put a glazed solar system on the pool and it provided the energy for the HP. In cooling we rejected heat to the pool. The pool would not be covered and we would have the deep space radiation cooling of the pool. One job we ended up having to install a small cooling tower as the pool just became to hot. One negative of this system ended up being the increase in pool chemicals as the high temps and lack of a cover burned them off. Again, these jobs were in ‘78-‘81, so… I worked on some direct geo jobs with the hot water resource here in the west. The Geo-Heat Center at Oregon Institute of Technology in Klamath Falls is a tremendous resource for info. I did a feasibility study with the DOE through OIT, studying a district heating cooling system for Calistoga, CA, Calistoga sits on a lake of high temp water. Problem was that it had 10ppm on boron. Taht will not hurt humans, but .5 ppm will kill a grape vine. This being in the Napa Valley the grape growers thought it a good idea to keep the water in the ground. There is no joy taking the growers on there
I forget now what the "ideal" return temp out of a geo system prior to it going back into the ground -- most people just use a heat exchanger. You need a good loop.
86turbodsl
Well-known member
I agree with every single thing said here. I did mine because i could and i like diy complicated things. i'm going to lose when i sale my house someday though, because buyer #2 will be very very scared.
86turbodsl
Well-known member
Geothermal just means your heat source is a heat pump dumping processed heat into your structure. The nuclear sub came about because of the infloor radiant and backup heating. i don't like GSHP into indoor air handler for heating because the temps are much colder than combustion and it feels drafty. Thus the radiant and chiller.